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What is your washing machine setup?


jetzi

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54 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I'm interested to hear more about that tumble drier - gas you say? That sounds dangerous - or not? Do you have a link or a model number for it? How much gas does it use?

White Knight LPG86A 

Very sophisticated machine.  Dries to the dryness level you specify.

No pilot light.  Ignites itself as necessary on every other cycle.

Requires vent to outside (as any drier would, otherwise condensation inside the boat will be considerable).

Takes a complete WMC load.

Needs 240VAC to turn the drum.

200g per h is a figure I have recorded but I don't know the spec for this usage. 

Gas systems are safe if properly installed.  

I believe it is British made.

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3 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Surely water consumption and electric are not a problem on a NB. Doesn't everyone moor on a water point and leave the generator on whilst doing their washing. ;)

I'm expecting to usually be cruising while washing to use the engine and hot water efficiently. But maybe not, I've never had a washing machine aboard so I don't have a routine yet.

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37 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I'm expecting to usually be cruising while washing to use the engine and hot water efficiently. But maybe not, I've never had a washing machine aboard so I don't have a routine yet.

We generaly use the washing machine whilst cruising. When we are ccing which we have done for many years over the years we find water no problem as pass at least one tap every day or at the very worst case scenarion one every week . If you are cming and just moving once a fortnight because you have,  to then water becomes more of a problem. My advice is just stick a travel power on the engine, fantastic bit of kit, one engine running to move the boat, power the mains for the washing, charge the batteries and heat the water.

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Two loads at the the launderette every week...!!!  Wow.

 

On that basis I would forget about the twin tub, they are surprisingly effective for the money  but you would be back on the launderette run PDQ.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

stick a travel power on the engine, fantastic bit of kit

Someone mentioned a "travel power", but I have never heard of this before. What does it do?

Edit: GIYF. https://betamarine.co.uk/portfolio-item/travel-power/

So basically a 240V alternator that provides power without having to use an inverter. Interesting!
 

11 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

Two loads at the the launderette every week...!!!  Wow.

Maybe not quite two per week. But at least one big one. I do a lot of exercise (sweaty clothes) and we are a bit OCD when if comes to cleanliness of linen etc. Apart from the hassle it is really expensive, and a washing machine wouldn't take that long to pay for itself.

 

Also even if we weren't on a NB we'd still be keen to get efficient appliances, to save the world and all that.

Edited by ivan&alice
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2 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Someone mentioned a "travel power", but I have never heard of this before. What does it do?

Superb kit. I have one and I know Nick has so probably him. Basicaly its a large alternater that through a clever box of tricks delivers pure sine 3.5 kva at any engine revs from tickover upwards. Clean electric whilstever your propulsion engine is running. Also means the other alternaters are delivering full capacity as wanted by batteries as not running an inverter. Can be fitted directly onto some engines, the 43 beta is one as is the Isuzu. I know a bloke who supplies and fits them if you find it hard to source. My second boat with one and for me an absolute must have.

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1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

Superb kit. I have one and I know Nick has so probably him. Basicaly its a large alternater that through a clever box of tricks delivers pure sine 3.5 kva at any engine revs from tickover upwards. Clean electric whilstever your propulsion engine is running. Also means the other alternaters are delivering full capacity as wanted by batteries as not running an inverter. Can be fitted directly onto some engines, the 43 beta is one as is the Isuzu. I know a bloke who supplies and fits them if you find it hard to source. My second boat with one and for me an absolute must have.

I have a Beta 38 (BV 1505) - will try to find out if it is compatible. Do you use this in conjunction with an inverter or forgo the inverter entirely? If in conjunction, can you connect it up to the inverter like shore power to provide seamless 240V when the engine is running? This is new information for me, so trying to think how it would fit together...

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Just now, ivan&alice said:

I have a Beta 38 (BV 1505) - will try to find out if it is compatible. Do you use this in conjunction with an inverter or forgo the inverter entirely? If in conjunction, can you connect it up to the inverter like shore power to provide seamless 240V when the engine is running? This is new information for me, so trying to think how it would fit together...

In a nutshell, yes you can have both wired in and select whichever you want. I can specify, Shore, inverter, travelpower or simply 12 volt on my set up. I can give yo number of a bloke who knows his stuff and would talk to you re wether your engine is up to it or not. It works fully independant of the inverter so your choice. I have both as I run all mains kit so need a good inverter also.

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Having been through the following on our boats.

Washer/separate dryer

Washer/dryer, don't even think of using powder liquid is the only way.

Both fed by a TRV with cold bypass for rinsing, power from 3kva Victron.

The TRV rarely got used as CBA

 

Zanussi compact, didn't like previous inverter.

Candy 100F compact

We still have the Candy, its the best of the small ones if not the most efficient with water use.

Fed by Victron 1600va inverter.

All washing done at 40deg using pods whilst we are moving.

 

Now we have  moved into a  house we have;

https://ao.com/product/ewsd61252w-indesit-my-time-washing-machine-white-37178-1.aspx

Which seems to be very miserly on water use, it varies water according to loading, and its quick 45/60mins for a wash. Its also quite shallow so plenty of room for pipes etc behind it.

Still at 40deg using pods.

If I had room on the boat I would have one!

Edited by Loddon
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1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

In a nutshell, yes you can have both wired in and select whichever you want. I can specify, Shore, inverter, travelpower or simply 12 volt on my set up. I can give yo number of a bloke who knows his stuff and would talk to you re wether your engine is up to it or not. It works fully independant of the inverter so your choice. I have both as I run all mains kit so need a good inverter also.

After a bit of reading I was so convinced on the Travelpower, but then I came across this thread that said that Beta confirmed the TP won't be compatible with a Beta 38 engine. https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/94767-travel-power

 

From the looks of the TP it is just another alternator-like thing. Why would it not be compatible - not enough RPMs? If I created a mount for it and fed a belt from the same pulley as the alternator would I have no joy?

 

37 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Both fed by a TRV with cold bypass for rinsing, power from 3kva Victron.

The TRV rarely got used as CBA 

An electric dryer is beyond even my dreams so the washer drier is out. An economical electric washing machine with the heating element off is the most I can hope for. And I'll consider a gas drier for the future.

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3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

After a bit of reading I was so convinced on the Travelpower, but then I came across this thread that said that Beta confirmed the TP won't be compatible with a Beta 38 engine. https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/94767-travel-power

 

From the looks of the TP it is just another alternator-like thing. Why would it not be compatible - not enough RPMs? If I created a mount for it and fed a belt from the same pulley as the alternator would I have no joy?

 

An electric dryer is beyond even my dreams so the washer drier is out. An economical electric washing machine with the heating element off is the most I can hope for. And I'll consider a gas drier for the future.

Whilst I wouldnt quibble that our esteemed forum member was told by Beta that the TP couldnt be run off a 38 I reckon with the correct pulleys which are capable of being made the engine would power it without any problem.  However its probably down to putting more stress on some bearing or other that Beta will not sanction such a unit being installed. My first one was a black box fitted to a beta 43, this one is the newer supposed inferior silver box fitted to an Isuzu 42. Both instalations have run faultlessly in my ownership. Both were installed to full time live aboard boats. Of course its your engine but if you want the opinion of a bloke who really knows his stuff just PM me and I will give you details of who to ring for advice.

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9 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Yes, at the risk of turning this into another electicity thread, I'm aware that we'll have to generate the power and solar alone won't cut it. I'd say reducing your requirements is the first step - certainly I don't want to be doing any heating at all from the electrical system, hence my interest in the hot feed. Electricity at the moment comes entirely from my alternator. I'll have to accurately audit my consumption and production to determine if this and solar will be enough to power the inverter when I get one. If not my preference would be a plumbed in diesel generator in the engine bay or failing that an alternator upgrade.

 

Could you give me a bit more detail on the thermostatic mixing valve? Are you able to set the valve to a particular temperature? What if the water isn't hot enough to make up that temperature?

 

 

The twin tub option seems possible but I'm concerned that the size is so small. Seems like it would be a lot of effort - does it wash as well as an automatic? And I can imagine it uses less water than a full size auto - but do you know how much water it uses per kilogram?

 

We use one of these. Washes up to 5kg better than the automatic machine at home.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5KG-Portable-Mini-Compact-Twin-Tub-Washing-Machine-Washer-Spin-Dryer-300W-UK-/163451861240?redirect=mobile

Edited by cuthound
To unmangle the effects of autocorrect.
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2 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Whilst I wouldnt quibble that our esteemed forum member was told by Beta that the TP couldnt be run off a 38 I reckon with the correct pulleys which are capable of being made the engine would power it without any problem.  However its probably down to putting more stress on some bearing or other that Beta will not sanction such a unit being installed. My first one was a black box fitted to a beta 43, this one is the newer supposed inferior silver box fitted to an Isuzu 42. Both instalations have run faultlessly in my ownership. Both were installed to full time live aboard boats. Of course its your engine but if you want the opinion of a bloke who really knows his stuff just PM me and I will give you details of who to ring for advice.

I gave Ed a call and he was extremely helpful. Thanks for this advice. He asked me to email me a few pics of my engine and alternator so he can help identify it. After closer inspection what I thought was the starter motor I think is actually a second alternator. (I wonder if @Patrick_C has any insight, being that he has the same boat?)

 

IMG_20190528_184056.jpg.601fa6e2c120ef979ebc5a44e40d92ce.jpgIMG_20190528_183846.jpg.36634199e8301280743e1ba2e23a50a5.jpgIMG_20190528_183653.jpg.915f5ce32359061b1253525f0890cdbd.jpgIMG_20190528_183636.jpg.2b71577956ea868887ea4dad640811af.jpg

Ed said he doesn't recommend Travel Power anymore as he started having some problems with some that he fitted and that Beta wasn't honouring the warantee for some or other reason. Besides, he said I'd be looking at about 3500 GBP for one - which seems incredible. As @mrsmelly asked what his advice was, apparently yes, fitting a Travel Power to a Beta 38 can be done but it isn't worth the upgrade over a large alternator (and presumably, Beta won't honour the warranty).


I asked about fitting a built in diesel generator and he reckons that I'd be looking at around 7000 GBP to do that. Fast seem to be running out of options for power generation.

Needless to say I'm rather taken aback at how much I'd be looking at to do this.

 

He recommended that I fit a 90A alternator and use that to power the washing machine. He says it isn't worth it as the engine itself is so good it would be better to rather use that for power generation than anything supplemental. He said a washing machine would be towards the limit of what a 90A alternator on a Beta 38y can put out but that it would manage. He says you can't really go bigger with my engine as the belts get shredded by anything larger since they are only 10mm wide. My other option is to get a standalone diesel generator which after a 5 second Google seem to be around 1000 GBP for a 5KW.

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I enquired about these options when we bought our boat and John Lusty at Beta said the same things as have been discussed here. I needed to replace the original alternator as it was cooked.  The Beta 38 on the BP boats (which indeed has two alternators, a 70A for domestics and a 35A for the starter, as originally fitted) is not set up for either a much larger alternator or a travel pack without much additional work.  We manage to run the washing machine OK while the engine is running via a Sterling inverter. 

 

Overall the impression I have is that the BP boat have a combination of engine/alternators/battery bank/skint tanks which are designed to play nicely together - increase the alternator, engine may need work to deal with stresses; replace the engine, the skin tanks may not be large enough ... and so on.  I think there was another BP boat similar to ours which the owners 'upgraded' for all year round cruising and they found this caused additional work (NB No Problem? They had/have a blog). 

2 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

My other option is to get a standalone diesel generator which after a 5 second Google seem to be around 1000 GBP for a 5KW.

Our other option is that we have a Kipor 2.6 Petrol generator converted to run off LPG and that happily runs the washing machine too.

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Interesting - I use a split charge relay on the domestic alternator to charge my leisure battery and my starter battery. Perhaps the first thing I should be doing is to hook up my starter battery to my 35A alternator.

 

Actually perhaps the first thing I should be doing is to test the alternator to confirm that it is in fact a 70A as like Ed said this doesn't look like the original. (@Patrick_C do you recognise the silver-coloured alternator - does it look like your original?) Anyone want to point me in the right direction of how to measure an alternator output?

What's the advantage of your LPG converted petrol generator? I'm very scared to have any petrol on board and I think that the big 230 litre diesel tank is a more substantial (and cheaper?) source of energy than a couple of 9kg propane tanks.

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10 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Actually perhaps the first thing I should be doing is to test the alternator to confirm that it is in fact a 70A as like Ed said this doesn't look like the original

That isn't the original, which was like a larger version of the starter alternator.  It looks pretty much like the replacement that Beta sent me which (at that time, about 4 years ago) was an Iskra 70A.  

10 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

What's the advantage of your LPG converted petrol generator?

It means no petrol on board, we can just hook it up to the gas bottles as and when needed.  The generator is also mobile (ish) so can be used for jobs off the boat. We used this https://www.sailandtrail.co.uk/lpg-conversion-kit-for-kipor-and-honda-generators.html.

 

We usually use the solar/engine/battery bank via an inverter (Sterling 1600) which is fine for most of the time and will run what we need when cruising (a bigger inverter would probably be pointless with 345Ah of domestic batteries anyway).  Out of interest, the generator will manage a full wash cycle (although it gets pretty excited during the heating phase) rather than having to use hot water from the calorifier, which is our usual approach when on the move. 

 

Overall our experience of things going kaput or running out at the least convenient moment means that we go for having multiple ways of doing everything if possible - power from engine, solar, generator; water heating engine + eberspacher; space heating eberspacher + stove, etc etc.  So the generator is there as a fallback as much as anything.

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On 28/05/2019 at 19:28, ivan&alice said:

I gave Ed a call and he was extremely helpful. Thanks for this advice. He asked me to email me a few pics of my engine and alternator so he can help identify it. After closer inspection what I thought was the starter motor I think is actually a second alternator. (I wonder if @Patrick_C has any insight, being that he has the same boat?)

 

IMG_20190528_184056.jpg.601fa6e2c120ef979ebc5a44e40d92ce.jpgIMG_20190528_183846.jpg.36634199e8301280743e1ba2e23a50a5.jpgIMG_20190528_183653.jpg.915f5ce32359061b1253525f0890cdbd.jpgIMG_20190528_183636.jpg.2b71577956ea868887ea4dad640811af.jpg

Ed said he doesn't recommend Travel Power anymore as he started having some problems with some that he fitted and that Beta wasn't honouring the warantee for some or other reason. Besides, he said I'd be looking at about 3500 GBP for one - which seems incredible. As @mrsmelly asked what his advice was, apparently yes, fitting a Travel Power to a Beta 38 can be done but it isn't worth the upgrade over a large alternator (and presumably, Beta won't honour the warranty).


I asked about fitting a built in diesel generator and he reckons that I'd be looking at around 7000 GBP to do that. Fast seem to be running out of options for power generation.

Needless to say I'm rather taken aback at how much I'd be looking at to do this.

 

He recommended that I fit a 90A alternator and use that to power the washing machine. He says it isn't worth it as the engine itself is so good it would be better to rather use that for power generation than anything supplemental. He said a washing machine would be towards the limit of what a 90A alternator on a Beta 38y can put out but that it would manage. He says you can't really go bigger with my engine as the belts get shredded by anything larger since they are only 10mm wide. My other option is to get a standalone diesel generator which after a 5 second Google seem to be around 1000 GBP for a 5KW.

Your other other option is to get a portable petrol generator.  Mine is 2.3kw continuous and 2.6kw peak which is plenty for running a washing machine.  I paid about £500 for mine from Midland Chandlers.

23 hours ago, Patrick_C said:

That isn't the original, which was like a larger version of the starter alternator.  It looks pretty much like the replacement that Beta sent me which (at that time, about 4 years ago) was an Iskra 70A.  

It means no petrol on board, we can just hook it up to the gas bottles as and when needed.  The generator is also mobile (ish) so can be used for jobs off the boat. We used this https://www.sailandtrail.co.uk/lpg-conversion-kit-for-kipor-and-honda-generators.html.

 

We usually use the solar/engine/battery bank via an inverter (Sterling 1600) which is fine for most of the time and will run what we need when cruising (a bigger inverter would probably be pointless with 345Ah of domestic batteries anyway).  Out of interest, the generator will manage a full wash cycle (although it gets pretty excited during the heating phase) rather than having to use hot water from the calorifier, which is our usual approach when on the move. 

 

Overall our experience of things going kaput or running out at the least convenient moment means that we go for having multiple ways of doing everything if possible - power from engine, solar, generator; water heating engine + eberspacher; space heating eberspacher + stove, etc etc.  So the generator is there as a fallback as much as anything.

You have the exact same set-up as me except I decided against the LPG kit and run mine just on petrol.  There are pros and cons to either option.

 

 

Edited by doratheexplorer
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23 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

There are pros and cons to either option.

We looked at this thread when we were weighing up the options and decided that having no petrol on board outweighed the counter arguments. The other point that is mentioned in passing in the thread is that a generator with petrol in it needs to be stored outside or in a separate locker, while the LPG converted one can be stored more securely inside the boat.

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5 minutes ago, Patrick_C said:

We looked at this thread when we were weighing up the options and decided that having no petrol on board outweighed the counter arguments. The other point that is mentioned in passing in the thread is that a generator with petrol in it needs to be stored outside or in a separate locker, while the LPG converted one can be stored more securely inside the boat.

A lot of it comes down to practicality and the layout of your boat.  I have a suitable place to store my generator, and another suitable place to store my jerry can.  For safety reasons I run my genny as far from my boat as I reasonably can.  If I were to use lpg I'd have to run a long flexible hose all the way from my genny to the gas bottle, which are fixed in place.  I'm unhappy about the safety of that.  I was also concerned about the effect of using LPG on the genny's engine.  There's a good reason why you lose you manufacturer's warranty if you use LPG.  The wear on the engine is higher. 

 

In my opinion, the cost savings are irrelevant (I calculated it would take me about 15 years to break even on the cost of the LPG kit) and the safety arguments can be had both ways too.

 

Fpr me the advantages of LPG are that it can be stored for far longer (which is good if you only use your genny rarely), that you can store more of it (nothing to stop you having 19kg or larger cylinders on your boat, and that you can buy it at boatyards (no need to walk or drive to petrol stations).  I was genuinely considering the LPG option but in the end decided that the simplicity and flexibility of using the genny in the way the manufacturer intended was the way to go for me.

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On 28/05/2019 at 12:48, ivan&alice said:

Here comes the spreadsheet!

image.png.d5380f2b644240a476fda35a4a417346.png

I know, I know. I need to go out and look at washing machines, and let the right one find me. ?

 

Based on this, I'm leaning towards the Hotpoint used by CtC or the Lindo300 with a thermostat mixer valve.

The water usage estimate for a camping twin tub is massively off. I've just measured mine and the wash compartment would hold about 15l of water. With a wash and two spins, which I find gets clothes very clean, that is 45l per cycle.

 

Don't know about weight of clothes, I just stuff them in to the spin station till it is full, then transfer them to the washer side. That seems to be the limit. Beyond that the washer agitator has trouble moving them. If they are thin material I can just get a double duvet cover and bed sheet in one load.

 

For energy, I give mine 15mins of washing and two x 6 minutes of rinsing at 230W and three by two minutes of spin at 116W, so 230*27 + 186*6 = 7326Wmins, or 122.1Whrs, or 12.2Ahrs from the batteries per load washed, rinsed and spun, using 10V to take inverter loss in to account.

 

My hot water is provided in huge amounts by stove back boiler in the winter and thermal solar in the summer, so this gives really good washing at very little load on the batteries and charging system.

 

As you have guessed I like them for boat use. Excellent wash and come out almost dry to the touch, so I can line dry them inside in winter in just a few hours. Downside is that the ones I've used only seem to last around five years before breaking. There are several weak spots, including the switch mechanism that detects the closure of the spin lid to disable and brake the motor.

 

Jen

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On 28/05/2019 at 18:20, nbfiresprite said:

I just brought one of these, 2 IN 1 Compact Automatic Washing Machine

 

 

s-l1600.jpg

 

Interesting,  similar energy consumption and principle of operation to the twin tubs but in half the floor space.

 

Please provide updates on how well it works and it's reliability. 

 

If it works well and is reasonably reliable I might swap my twin tub for one.

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One thought on automatics which ever one you choose it should have a seperate temperature dial enabling you to choose any type of wash at any temp, even more important if using a TRV to regulate the temp as you will need to set the type of program for the fabric whilst using a cold wash.

Doing it this way removes any chance of the heater coming on.

 

Edited by Loddon
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