Lithium charging via large alternator ?

[moiuk]

Hi all,  I am looking to install lithium batteries and want to reduce my charging time down to the smallest possible time. I am thinking of upgrading the existing 95a alternator on my beta 43 to the largest possible which I think is a 200a alternator.

 

I was going to use the victron 12/200 to limit the pull on the alternator to around 160Amps so as not to overload it.

 

Could this approach work? And where is the best place to get a 200Amp alternator for my beta 43 ?

[MtB]

Well 160A at a charge voltage of say 14 is 2.24kW, or about 3hp. Transferring this amount of power through a belt will require a poly-vee belt I'd say. Ebay is usually a good place to find alternators.

 

Have you a strategy to protect the batteries from overcharging? (Overcharging could work out far more expensive than wrecking an alternator.) I'd be most interested if you could post what kit you are installing to protect against overcharging.

 

 

[moiuk]

The victron 12/200 handles the overcharging issue I believe. It needs a normal battery to dump into when it shuts off to the lithium though.

 

Perhaps it would be a better approach to upgrade the second alternator to match the 95amp and drive 2 x 95a rather than 1 200amp ? Will the beta 43 handle that ?

Edited May 25, 2019 by moiuk

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, moiuk said:

The victron 12/200 handles the overcharging issue I believe. It needs a normal battery to dump into when it shuts off to the lithium though.

 

Thanks, I'll have a look at it!

 

Bear in mind changing to poly-vee belt drive means changing the crankshaft and water pump pulleys too. Beta may well be able to help with this. 

 

 

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, moiuk said:

The victron 12/200 handles the overcharging issue I believe. It needs a normal battery to dump into when it shuts off to the lithium though.

 

Hmmmm I don't think so 

 

Reading the spec it only talks about limiting the charge current which is not the same thing at all. 

 

Unless I'm missing something after several good whiskies!

 

 

[bizzard]

If the engines water pump is included in this belt wrap I can't see it lasting long with the extra strain.

[moiuk]

33 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Hmmmm I don't think so 

 

Reading the spec it only talks about limiting the charge current which is not the same thing at all. 

 

Unless I'm missing something after several good whiskies!

 

 

My understanding is that the victron smart battery sends a control signal to the 10/200 BMS when it is full (and also if it is less than 5 degrees) to shut off the charge.

[Tony Brooks]

Warning - some apparently high output alternators are for cars with electrical power steering and with the alternator controlled by the engine computer. I very much doubt an Ebay vendor would make this clear. I would suggest it is all but impossible to convert one of these alternators for boat use.

[MtB]

8 hours ago, moiuk said:

Could this approach work? And where is the best place to get a 200Amp alternator for my beta 43 ?

 

Given seem to be planning to install the Victron plug and play lithium system and must therefore have commensurately deep pockets, I'd suggest Beta are the people to ask for advice on which is the biggest alternator they recommend, and for the pulleys, brackets etc. I was imagining you were (like many of us on here) cobbling up your own system for economy. 

 

I'm inclined to suggest paralleling two 100A alternators rather than getting a single 200A, as a suggestion, given Tony's observation above about bigger units being controlled by car electronics.

 

 

[OldGoat]

I agree with MTB and for all sorts of additional reasons.

Beta do a Poly-V kit which fits your Beta  BUT only if they've not chopped off the crankshaft extension (which they did on earlier engines).

It's a doddle to fit. The secondary pulley is smaller that the primary,  thus you may have to juggle with the ratios on the alternator pulleys. Difficult as I'm using smallpulleys anyway.

[ditchcrawler]

I posted this link before about a boat upgrading to Lithium batteries, the story starts here and goes over some 8 days http://derwent6.blogspot.com/2019/04/day-one-of-our-upgrade-solar.html  I think they are very happy with the end result.

[Sea Dog]

Does your Beta 43 not have a poly vee belt domestic alternator drive already?  I'd be inclined to contact Beta Marine with your engine number to discover the art of the possible for your mechanicals.

[moiuk]

50 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Does your Beta 43 not have a poly vee belt domestic alternator drive already?  I'd be inclined to contact Beta Marine with your engine number to discover the art of the possible for your mechanicals.

I'm not sure,  how  could I tell by looking at it ?

On 26/05/2019 at 08:30, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Given seem to be planning to install the Victron plug and play lithium system and must therefore have commensurately deep pockets, I'd suggest Beta are the people to ask for advice on which is the biggest alternator they recommend, and for the pulleys, brackets etc. I was imagining you were (like many of us on here) cobbling up your own system for economy. 

 

I'm inclined to suggest paralleling two 100A alternators rather than getting a single 200A, as a suggestion, given Tony's observation above about bigger units being controlled by car electronics.

 

 

Thank you, I'll try and give beta z call tomorrow. 

Edited May 27, 2019 by moiuk

[mrsmelly]

The Beta 43 runs two alternaters as normal plus the 3.5kva biggy for the travel power with ease. Surely what you suggest is easily doable.

[Dr Bob]

What alternator are you thinking of getting? Most small frame alternators are not going to cope with delivering 75-80% of their capacity continuously. I am interested for charging our Lithiums and there seem few makes of alternator controller that can back off the power to what you need to keep temperature down. Not a clue how (or if) the victron thing does it. Also with fast charging like that, you have to be damn sure your over charge protection works. Can the victron thing be set to limit charge to 80% otherwise as you don't need to get to full?

We have a beta 43 from 2003 with 90A and a 50A alternators, but I thought there was an issue on some of these engines with crankshaft problems if putting too much on the end of them. 

There isn't a lot on the internet about the best alternators and controllers for Lithiums.

Is your system a diy or victron system?

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

What alternator are you thinking of getting? Most small frame alternators are not going to cope with delivering 75-80% of their capacity continuously. I am interested for charging our Lithiums and there seem few makes of alternator controller that can back off the power to what you need to keep temperature down. Not a clue how (or if) the victron thing does it. Also with fast charging like that, you have to be damn sure your over charge protection works. Can the victron thing be set to limit charge to 80% otherwise as you don't need to get to full?

We have a beta 43 from 2003 with 90A and a 50A alternators, but I thought there was an issue on some of these engines with crankshaft problems if putting too much on the end of them. 

There isn't a lot on the internet about the best alternators and controllers for Lithiums.

Is your system a diy or victron system?

The blog I linked to have just changed their crank pulley arrangement for the second time after the first mod failed

. The first Beta one has now been superseded .

[OldGoat]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

The blog I linked to have just changed their crank pulley arrangement for the second time after the first mod failed

. The first Beta one has now been superseded .

The firs Beta mod was -umm not very good; that said, mine lasted 10 years with a 145, 24v alternator on one side and a 250V generator on the other. That's a lot of power.

The later units uses the splined shaft drive designed as a power take-off for hydraulic pumps and the like.

I'm led to believe that the first version was only in place for a few years.

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, OldGoat said:

The firs Beta mod was -umm not very good; that said, mine lasted 10 years with a 145, 24v alternator on one side and a 250V generator on the other. That's a lot of power.

The later units uses the splined shaft drive designed as a power take-off for hydraulic pumps and the like.

I'm led to believe that the first version was only in place for a few years.

 

Indeed, the early Beta engines used a woodruff key to hold the pulleys to a cut off crank, but the woodruff key open up up the groove in the crankshaft, causing the pulleys to come loose. From about 2006, Beta stopped cutting off the splined section of the crank, and instead used matching pulleys directly onto the splined crankshaft extension.

[system 4-50]

I asked Beta what it would cost to add a TravelPower to my 2010 Beta 43 and the reply was the stuff of nightmares.

[OldGoat]

The TP itself is quite expensive, so are the pulleys and the brackets

Add to that the fitting plus the painting.....

 

How much are your nightmares?

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

The TP itself is quite expensive, so are the pulleys and the brackets

Add to that the fitting plus the painting.....

 

How much are your nightmares?

 

Well the OP appears to be having a proprietary Victron system installed and doesn't seem phased by Victron prices, so the 4k or so Beta will prolly be asking may not be too much of a shock.

[moiuk]

On 28/05/2019 at 08:05, Dr Bob said:

What alternator are you thinking of getting? Most small frame alternators are not going to cope with delivering 75-80% of their capacity continuously. I am interested for charging our Lithiums and there seem few makes of alternator controller that can back off the power to what you need to keep temperature down. Not a clue how (or if) the victron thing does it. Also with fast charging like that, you have to be damn sure your over charge protection works. Can the victron thing be set to limit charge to 80% otherwise as you don't need to get to full?

We have a beta 43 from 2003 with 90A and a 50A alternators, but I thought there was an issue on some of these engines with crankshaft problems if putting too much on the end of them. 

There isn't a lot on the internet about the best alternators and controllers for Lithiums.

Is your system a diy or victron system?

Hi - Was going for the victron system. Yes the 10/200 BMS can limit the pull from the alternator (I was aiming for 80% of the rated alternator) as well as handle the overcharge.

[ditchcrawler]

4 minutes ago, moiuk said:

Hi - Was going for the victron system. Yes the 10/200 BMS can limit the pull from the alternator (I was aiming for 80% of the rated alternator) as well as handle the overcharge.

What does it do when the batteries are full?

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What does it do when the batteries are full?

 

One would imagine the user isn't expected to worry about this, given the Victron system is supposedly 'plug and pray', i.e. idiot proof. 

 

Or did I mean 'plug and play'? 

 

 

[Sea Dog]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

One would imagine the user isn't expected to worry about this, given the Victron system is supposedly 'plug and pray', i.e. idiot proof. 

 

Or did I mean 'plug and play'? 

 

 

Or even "prug an' pray", eh glasshopper?