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Alan de Enfield

Rivers (only) Registration.

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Is the 'Rivers Only' fee that we pay for a 'Licence' or a 'Registration' ?

 

I have a feeling that Nigel Moore has previously said where there is a PRN it is simply a 'registration' but I cannot find anything now.

 

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I believe it's a registration fee.  But C&RT call it a "Rivers Only Licence"

 

Bod

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I have a river only licence. I've also had the rest of the Cart system one. I didn't have to change my registration plate number.

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57 minutes ago, Bod said:

I believe it's a registration fee.  But C&RT call it a "Rivers Only Licence"

 

Bod

I think it is a registration (I know it is called a licence by C&RT)

 

There is not only a legal difference between the two but a 'financial' difference.

 

C&RT know (and have put in writing) that there is no VAT applicable on a registration, but there is on a licence.

 

C&RT appear to have been illegally applying VAT to River Registrations - I'm considering claiming back the incorrectly applied VAT but want to be sure of the grounds.

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13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think it is a registration (I know it is called a licence by C&RT)

 

There is not only a legal difference between the two but a 'financial' difference.

 

C&RT know (and have put in writing) that there is no VAT applicable on a registration, but there is on a licence.

 

C&RT appear to have been illegally applying VAT to River Registrations - I'm considering claiming back the incorrectly applied VAT but want to be sure of the grounds.

Keep us all informed of progress on this one, Good luck, you'll need it I reckon. I'd have a go too but I've just spent 60 days battling with TFL over the ULEZ charge. I'll see how you get on then maybe give it a go.

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14 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think it is a registration (I know it is called a licence by C&RT)

 

There is not only a legal difference between the two but a 'financial' difference.

 

C&RT know (and have put in writing) that there is no VAT applicable on a registration, but there is on a licence.

 

C&RT appear to have been illegally applying VAT to River Registrations - I'm considering claiming back the incorrectly applied VAT but want to be sure of the grounds.

I have raised this with the CRT licencing department before and they claim that the rivers only registration is a licence which is contrary to their own legislation.

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It appears in the "British Waterways Act 1971"

 

Section 7(1) There shall be paid to the board for the registration of every pleasure boat to be used on a river waterway …………..

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Does the Environment Agency charge VAT for boat registration on say the Thames? I cannot find any mention of VAT at all on their list of charges.

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Your barking up the wrong tree.

Every boat is required to be "Registered" this is where the boat number is issued. (Tin plates/sticky backed labels. Normally at first entry to the water)  Then an annual renewal of the "Certificate of registration" is required.

Only HMRC would be able to say for definite whether or not VAT should be paid on either Registration or Certificate costs.

 

Bod

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EA are a government body so no need for VAT registration. BW/cart are VAT registered to enable them to claim VAT back on their expenses.  Downside is they charge us VAT but when it was bought in the cost of licences/registration did not go up so practically VAT was not charged on registration.

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1 hour ago, croftie said:

Does the Environment Agency charge VAT for boat registration on say the Thames? I cannot find any mention of VAT at all on their list of charges.

No they don't, they say that a Boat Registration is VAT exempt (as do C&RT in an internal document, but 'in public' they call it a licence so it is subject to VAT).

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47 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No they don't, they say that a Boat Registration is VAT exempt (as do C&RT in an internal document, but 'in public' they call it a licence so it is subject to VAT).

If they don't pass the VAT on that's fraudulent - I'm not sure what happens if they do as the taxman will have been overpaid 

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41 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

If they don't pass the VAT on that's fraudulent - I'm not sure what happens if they do as the taxman will have been overpaid 

I am VAT registered (well my company is) if I cock up on the VAT I amend it +/- on the next returns.

VAT rules says you are allowed to reduce / add to payments due for under / overpayments in the past.

 

One thing that caught me out in the 'early days' is that VAT becomes due against an invoice, not on receipt of payment.

This was picked up by a very nice inspector on a 'random' inspection.

If your customers have 90 days credit, you must pay the VAT 90 days before receipt of the money (ie on issue of the invoice) - which can occasionally cause cash flow problems.

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5 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

If they don't pass the VAT on that's fraudulent - I'm not sure what happens if they do as the taxman will have been overpaid 

That's not how VAT works - you pass on VAT on outputs minus the VAT paid on inputs, each at the appropriate rate. You don't pass on all of the VAT charged on outputs.

 

Although the great majority of transactions involve a standard rate of VAT there are plenty of exceptions, reduced rates, zero rate and exempt. Just one area that can get quite complicated is in the restoration or improvement of listed buildings - some of the work is standard rate and some zero. Which is which is not easy and may depend on which room you are in! And in the case of churches, further complicated since the Listed Places of Worship Scheme came in to offset the fact that the UK government could not continue its previous exemption for churches!

 

Also, it was possible at one time to pay more in input VAT than you charged on output VAT and to reclaim the difference, provided that you did have at least some VATable outputs. (Allegedly one of the reasons dentists started selling toothbrushes)  Ken Clarke abolished this option mid 1990's and disallowed it if the business consistently made a reclaim. (Naughtily he slipped in in the printed copy of the budget statement but failed to mention it in his speech!) Guess how I know? Care home outputs are zero rated.

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9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

One thing that caught me out in the 'early days' is that VAT becomes due against an invoice, not on receipt of payment.

Unless you use cash accounting. Which I do. Then you only pass on the VAT when you’ve received it. 

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21 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No they don't, they say that a Boat Registration is VAT exempt (as do C&RT in an internal document, but 'in public' they call it a licence so it is subject to VAT).

Thinking about it they are being a bit stupid. At the moment River "licence" is based on the full rate less 40% + VAT

They AND us river users would be better off if it was a river "registration" and was based on the full rate but for example less 35% with Zero VAT.

 

Keeping it simple if the full rate was £500.

At the moment river users pay £500 - 40% = £300 + VAT = £360. They get £300. HMRC get £60

If it was a "registration" £500 - 35% = £325  We save £35 but they get an extra £25

 

If the EA already charge zero VAT for river registration the precedence has been set for boat registration on rivers being zero

 

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1 minute ago, croftie said:

Thinking about it they are being a bit stupid. At the moment River "licence" is based on the full rate less 40% + VAT

That 40% figure is 'set in stone' (The law actually says "Rivers registration shall be 60% of the canal licence fee" (or words to that effect, I cannot find the Act at the moment)

 

It was passed as an act of Parliament and would need another to change it - I think they are a little busy at the moment to even say 'too busy to look at it'.

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That 40% figure is 'set in stone' (The law actually says "Rivers registration shall be 60% of the canal licence fee" (or words to that effect, I cannot find the Act at the moment)

 

It was passed as an act of Parliament and would need another to change it - I think they are a little busy at the moment to even say 'too busy to look at it'.

Ahhhh thanks Alan

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

It was passed as an act of Parliament and would need another to change it - I think they are a little busy at the moment to even say 'too busy to look at it'.

Too busy????, cantankerous useless buggers are off for a recess after today.

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4 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Too busy????, cantankerous useless buggers are off for a recess after today.

I thought it was an Abscess they were removing today ?

 

(Google definition An abscess is a painful collection of pus, usually caused by a bacterial infection.)

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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On 24/05/2019 at 09:17, Alan de Enfield said:

That 40% figure is 'set in stone' (The law actually says "Rivers registration shall be 60% of the canal licence fee" (or words to that effect, I cannot find the Act at the moment)

 

British Waterways Act 1983

 

Section 4(1) “. . . . Provided that the charge payable for the registration of a pleasure boat shall not at any time exceed 60 per centum of the amount which would be payable to the Board for the licensing of such vessel on any inland waterway other than a river waterway . . .”

 

Previous to this Act BW were bound by specific charges for pleasure boat registrations on the rivers, as laid down in the 1971 Act as amended. Once mandatory pleasure boat licences for the canals were introduced in the 1976 byelaws (pursuant to new powers granted under the BWA 1975), the 1983 Act allowed for flexibility and raising of prices for river registration certificates, but limited the amounts to the percentage of the equivalent licence, as quoted above.

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5 minutes ago, NigelMoore said:

British Waterways Act 1983

 

Section 4(1) “. . . . Provided that the charge payable for the registration of a pleasure boat shall not at any time exceed 60 per centum of the amount which would be payable to the Board for the licensing of such vessel on any inland waterway other than a river waterway . . .”

Many thanks - I read thru the 1983 act yesterday and missed it.

 

Would you be kind enough to list where I might find the references to the differences between a licence and a registration.

I'm sure you have gone into great detail, about this previously but, I can lo longer find it.

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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On 23/05/2019 at 12:30, magpie patrick said:

If they don't pass the VAT on that's fraudulent - I'm not sure what happens if they do as the taxman will have been overpaid 

If you have paid VAT for which you were not liable, you can reclaim it from HMRC. If the 'mistake' was down to HMRC, you can claim interest on it also; if the 'mistake' was that of the provider, HMRC will not award you any interest.

 

Many boaters of larger 'houseboats' qualifying for zero-rating have been able, on obtaining the necessary proof of being a 'qualifying ship', to reclaim VAT from HMRC paid out for some years previous. I forget the number of years applying.

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26 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Would you be kind enough to list where I might find the references to the differences between a licence and a registration.

I'm sure you have gone into great detail, about this previously but, I can lo longer find it.

I can't recall having gone into this much at all, let alone in detail. The legal distinction between 'licence' and 'registration certificate' yes – but VAT liability for either is a matter for the government and HMRC. The 'rules' on VAT applicable matters chop and change so frequently I cannot be bothered to keep up with them.

 

CaRT have claimed in times past that the difference between them and the EA re boat licence VAT liability (they continue to misuse the word 'licence' for the EA registration certificates too), lies not in the nature of the product but in a specific and special dispensation granted to the EA but not to CaRT.

 

Again, it would take time out of more pressing matters for me to delve into it, but I suspect that a lot of hogwash is promulgated on all sides and parties respecting this. The EA state that “VAT does not apply to charges for environmental permits and licences”, but certainly do “charge VAT on some of the optional services they offer”.

 

I will leave it to you and others on this topic sorry Alan! It has been traversed under various themes here previously, e.g. - 

 

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6 minutes ago, NigelMoore said:

can't recall having gone into this much at all, let alone in detail. The legal distinction between 'licence' and 'registration certificate' yes

Yes, that was the bit I was looking for, I know you have been reluctant to post on VAT matters.

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