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Innovation in narrow boats


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It is a very conservative market. The number of narrowboats built in a year can't be more than the low hundreds during peak years. Most builders are small businesses making only a few a year. There is a lot of conservatism, both in the builders and the majority of their customers, most of whom don't like taking risks on something costing many tens of thousands. The restrictions on narrowboats in their size and what will survive on the outside with the rough life they lead means that innovations only spread over decades long time scales and if the advantages are obvious. LED lighting over the last decade is an obvious one, with reduced power consumption. Solar photovoltaics to reduce engine running and allow more electrical gadgets. 4G mobile broadband is another. I am posting over it right now.

A lot of people, me included, take a pick and mix approach to the bits of the modern world they want to take in to their boat life. There is a lot to be said for simplicity. An innovative boat can be hard to sell. Going back to the Whitefield, you can see how long it took and the price hit the original owners took. My boat has solar hot water, which I set up myself and works very well, but could be a sticking point for a buyer as most would be unfamiliar with it as few boats have it.

 

Jen

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8 hours ago, Axster said:

There seems to be some innovation on the technical side. Plenty of hybrid boats on the water now that are solar/generator driven and work from an electric motor.

 

Are there?

 

Plenty have solar panels to provide domestic electricity but few are electric motor driven. 

 

The reason is, there is not enough roof space for enough solar panels to push the boat along. And there is no benefit to running an engine to power a generator to charge a battery to run an electric motor to push the boat along. Most of us prefer to connect a propeller directly to engine and cut out the expensive and inefficiency-introducing bit.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

Depends where you cruise. There weren't vastly more places where there was no such expectation during my 4 years on the Thames.

 

I know it's called a canal forum but some of us do venture further afield where things are a bit different.

Well yes, of course it's going to vary by area, but my point was that on the system in general there must be vastly more places where there's no expectation of breasting up. We must have covered the best part of 1000 miles in the north and Midlands without it ever cropping up.

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Which mooring restrictions are you referring to ?

 

The OP was actually talking about the fact that the dimensions are limited for cruising, but do not come into play when mooring :

 

I agree with him - as far as I am aware there are no restrictions in dimensions for mooring (except on a 'paid for mooring' where you 'rent' a specific length/width)

 

Hypothetically - You moor up for the night and 'wind out' the beam of your boat, and from 7 foot you now become 10 feet - how is that any different to the 12 foot wide 'fat-boat' moored in front of you ?

 

Where is there any evidence that you can 'only moor if you are under 7 feet wide, or 6 feet high' (for example) ?

 

 

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying, perhaps deliberately? If a boat's width can be extended uniformly along its length while still allowing other boats to brest up or move down the side without knocking anything off then fine, but I doubt many designs could accommodate that and most designs to extend the width wouldn't be practical. Therefore in most cases a width restriction within the boat's cruising beam does exist even when mooring.

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The real space problem in narrowboats isn't height but width, and this is the hardest thing to expand. It's not like a mobile home or caravan where you can simply slide part of the entire body down to floor level sideways, because any extending section would have to be well above (10 inches?) the waterline with a solid hull below this, which means getting on for three feet above internal floor level. Even for a bed this is pretty restrictive, and for living space it's pretty much useless.

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13 minutes ago, David Mack said:

And extend something out one side, and the boat will no longer sit level in the water.

Chuck is why you extend out the other side as well over the towpath for complete stability.

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I don't want one !!!!!!!!

I have enough with the dogs - I don't want a cyclist to look after as well

I hear you can now have the best of both worlds. 

 

iu.jpeg

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7 hours ago, Ray T said:

Whitefield was a bold if somewhat flawed attempt to produce a boat in the concept which the OP suggests. 

When Whitefield was built by Fernwood boats to get what they wanted it cost the customer in the region of £250K, about 8-10 years ago. Fernwood was about the only yard that would put their concept into reality.

 

Re read their approach philosophy.

 

But I've just got used to smart steering wheels, bow and stern thrusters, depth and speed gauges and stern camera for reverse docking up to the pontoons. There's just not enough gadgets Alison on a  canal boat ! "

 

' How about replacing the tiller with a joystick, have depth, speed and rudder position gauges, a GPS and a bow camera for checking its clear before venturing out of the Marina. And then of course, the inside would have to be totally different too. '

And so armed with our list, we looked at web sites and then visited several boat builders to put forward our thoughts. Now that was interesting!  Many of them just stared with their eyes seeming to glaze over as we tried to explain our bizarre concept for the cut. The lights were on but there was certainly nobody home at many of the places we visited.

Others trotted out such phrases such as:  "We haven't done that before".

Some even came out with such out of keeping comments that we knew they hadn't really fully digested the tablet. i.e. " We have a sign writer who is very good at decorative watering cans "….What ?

I’ve also forgot to mention that all areas have a telly, five in all, just so we can keep up with the news when going to the loo, working on the computer, going to bed or having a shower. Over the top or what!

 

Some of the reasons it was unsuitable for the English Canals:

 

The gunwales were teak bolted on to metal, inevitably there was water ingress.

On the way to the Crick boat show the electronic cratch cover was damaged in Crick tunnel as it was slightly out of gauge.

With the high seating position the steerer had to lean over to get through low bridges.

The joystick steering was not as precise a a conventional tiller.

I stand correction here but I believe it had 4 azimuth pod thrusters to assist with steering, these got stuck in the mud when mooring up. (For the OP the profile of the canal bed is saucer shaped, shallower at the edges.)

There were only two halogen halogen hobs for food preparation as the lady of the boat didn't like cooking and they decided they would eat in pubs.

 

The list goes on, but you get the idea.

A few years ago the owners put the boat up for sale circa £90k, if I remember correctly it took some 18 months to sell. 

 

I have no idea where it is now.

 

Doing a "search" of Whitefield will bring up more information, it has already been discussed in depth here.

 

The English canals are a 250 year old transport system, IMHO builders need to work with in that parameter.

 

 

WHITEFIELD---00170.jpg

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Sunday.doc 29 kB · 4 downloads

It was up for 175k at Mercia marina [New and Used boat co] I had a look at her, the batteries were flat as nobody had plugged her in to keep them charged!! that would 7-8 years ago

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I thought innovation in narrowboats was fairly advanced

 

UK-Specialist-Road-Transport.jpg

 

That's the current state of play until we get electric container tracks. Perfect for shifting goods

 

Richard

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5 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Are there?

 

Plenty have solar panels to provide domestic electricity but few are electric motor driven. 

 

The reason is, there is not enough roof space for enough solar panels to push the boat along. And there is no benefit to running an engine to power a generator to charge a battery to run an electric motor to push the boat along. Most of us prefer to connect a propeller directly to engine and cut out the expensive and inefficiency-introducing bit.

 

 

 

 

Finnesse seem to be building them though maybe thepeople ordering them know something you dont Mike? ?

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6 hours ago, DandV said:

We were just in front of a boat up the tidal Yorkshire Ouse that got swept through the willows on the outside of a bend. The roof took a solid scrape with everything on top being swept overboard, chimney,  plant boxes, buckby can. The stearer told us at  Naburn lock  afterwards, that the two inch willow branches had no intention  giving way to him either,  at 5plus knots, as they sprang down over the back of the cabin. He thought the dog had gone overboard in the commotion but it had fled to safety under a bed.

 

 

 

The other year we went up in Sabina H 66 x 16.5 foot ex petrol tanker we removed large amounts of branches and greenery on the way up the Ouse!!

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5 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

The reason is, there is not enough roof space for enough solar panels to push the boat along. And there is no benefit to running an engine to power a generator to charge a battery to run an electric motor to push the boat along. Most of us prefer to connect a propeller directly to engine and cut out the expensive and inefficiency-introducing bit.

 

 

 

 

Well, it all depends on your cruising habits. What is clear is that an all-electric boat supported by a large battery bank (which can also serve as ballast) and solar array (maybe a wind generator) is considerably more energy efficient than a diesel-driven boat that charges the batteries via an alternator. In the former model you can combine all sources of energy and store them as needed. It is obviously not going to be enough if you are continuously cruising, so a generator is required to support the system, charge batteries when solar and wind aren't enough and drive the electric motor when cruising time exceeds what the batteries can deliver, but overall it is a far more efficient system because it is integrated and cuts out energy losses.

13 hours ago, DandV said:

 narrowboats are subject to collisions everywhere from the extreme top of the cabin to the deepest point on the hull. Low bridges attack the roof top. Bridge arches and tunnel sides the eves, --- refitting a snagged chimney is easy compared to dealing with an impact damaged lifting roof structure.

I think that's a really valid argument - a good bump on the superstructure could misalign the mechanism of a lifting roof. Although I guess there could be engineering work-arounds

 

13 hours ago, DandV said:

 narrowboats are subject to collisions everywhere from the extreme top of the cabin to the deepest point on the hull. Low bridges attack the roof top. Bridge arches and tunnel sides the eves, --- refitting a snagged chimney is easy compared to dealing with an impact damaged lifting roof structure.

I think that's a really valid argument - a good bump on the superstructure could misalign the mechanism of a lifting roof. Although I guess there could be engineering work-arounds

 

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13 hours ago, DandV said:

 narrowboats are subject to collisions everywhere from the extreme top of the cabin to the deepest point on the hull. Low bridges attack the roof top. Bridge arches and tunnel sides the eves, --- refitting a snagged chimney is easy compared to dealing with an impact damaged lifting roof structure.

I think that's a really valid argument - a good bump on the superstructure could misalign the mechanism of a lifting roof. Although I guess there could be engineering work-arounds

 

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10 minutes ago, Axster said:

(maybe a wind generator)

With out wanting to be a stick in the mud - but the vast majority of reasons a wind generator works well on your yacht don't exist on with a narrowboat. Where I live wind generation is at least 100% more efficient than it is in the rest of Great Britain and renewable energy is really important to our local economy, so please understand that I say this because I do get it not because I don't want to get it. 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Axster said:

Well, it all depends on your cruising habits. What is clear is that an all-electric boat supported by a large battery bank (which can also serve as ballast) and solar array (maybe a wind generator) is considerably more energy efficient than a diesel-driven boat that charges the batteries via an alternator. In the former model you can combine all sources of energy and store them as needed. It is obviously not going to be enough if you are continuously cruising, so a generator is required to support the system, charge batteries when solar and wind aren't enough and drive the electric motor when cruising time exceeds what the batteries can deliver, but overall it is a far more efficient system because it is integrated and cuts out energy losses.

I think that's a really valid argument - a good bump on the superstructure could misalign the mechanism of a lifting roof. Although I guess there could be engineering work-arounds

 

I think that's a really valid argument - a good bump on the superstructure could misalign the mechanism of a lifting roof. Although I guess there could be engineering work-arounds

 

I have an electric boat it works well its 57 x 12 and has 3.7kw of solar, on batteries alone it will do 5 hours, on a sunny day it will cruise all day from the sun, so the batteries are just for reserve. For me the system works great but for others it cant possibly work [whether it can or cant] you are in a way pushing against a closed door, suggesting electric boats as an alternative to diesels

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I dont think you are pushing against a closed door, i think that many of us are a bit traditional and not early adopters.

in the future ( not mine).

once battery storage and solar becomes more efficient then i feel it will get a good take up. 

However the canals are a long way behind the roads on electric charge points and until spread sideways technology becomes more common people wont take your risk.

My boat was built for diesel ( ( no one said it would work half the boats on the cut were towed by horses) so would be wrong electric , but on a new one great.

 

 

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