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Innovation in narrow boats


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Hi all,
This is my first post on the forum and although I read a lot, my experience with narrowboats is limited, so please correct my ignorance when I state nonsense.
I have lived on sailboats and innovation with regard to living space is limited by the need for safety and performance as a sailing vessel. This isn't true for canal boats, the only limiting factors are width, length and height if you want to be able to cruise all or the majority of the canals. These restrictions only apply though when the boat is going through locks, aqueducts or tunnels. When moored up for the night, these restrictions do not apply.
So I wonder why none of the tiny house innovations have made their way onto narrowboats. Why, for instance, there are no lifting roofs - beds embedded in the ceiling, when anchored one raises the roof by 3ft and creates a loft space. Or even a fold-down deck on the side. 
There seems to be some innovation on the technical side. Plenty of hybrid boats on the water now that are solar/generator driven and work from an electric motor. That's great, but when it comes to innovation on the shape and function (in terms of living space)  of the boats I see very little innovation. Or maybe that's just me being ignorant :P
I'd love to hear your thoughts!

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The modern narrow boat, has evolved to have a very simple but extraordinarily robust hull and superstructure. Unlike most boating where leak causing collisions are invariably on the hull, narrowboats are subject to collisions everywhere from the extreme top of the cabin to the deepest point on the hull. Low bridges attack the roof top. Bridge arches and tunnel sides the eves, Overhanging trees anywhere on the boat and may well be unavoidable when passing another boat, given the vagrancies of wind and water displacement. Patching the paint to a steel deckhouse, or even refitting a snagged chimney is easy compared to dealing with an impact damaged lifting roof structure.

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There is also the factor of numbers, there are not enough boats sold to justify any large scale product development or technological research. The market is a unique one for one island with a particular type of historical navigation construction, boats built tend to reflect that early craft design.

The only real advance ( if you can call it that) is fitting larger and more complex electrical systems with advanced generation and storage methods so new boaters can live with the same facilities and encumberances that they fit their houses with.

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I'm trying to remember the details of such a boat that was built a few years ago.  The owner incorporated all the fancy gadgets imaginable - including a lifting roof, joystick steering etc.  He wanted it have all the features of an expensive luxury cruiser.  It was, if I recall, a failure.  Someone will post the details.  Come on, Ray.  You're good at finding things online :).

 

By the way, I honestly don't think you could improve on the design of a traditional back cabin - but then I'm biased.

 

 

Edited by koukouvagia
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13 minutes ago, koukouvagia said:

I'm trying to remember the details of such a boat that was built a few years ago.  The owner incorporated all the fancy gadgets imaginable - including a lifting roof, joystick steering etc.  He wanted it have all the features of an expensive luxury cruiser.  It was, if I recall, a failure.  Someone will post the details.  Come on, Ray.  You're good at finding things online :).

 

By the way, I honestly don't think you could improve on the design of a traditional back cabin - but then I'm biased.

 

 

Whitefield, made by Fernwood boats. I an not on the PC at the moment, I’ll post some pictures later along with reasons it was not a success. The web pages with it on have been taken down.

Edited by Ray T
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Just now, Ray T said:

Whitefield, made by Fernwood boats. I an not on the PC at the moment, I’ll post some pictures later along with reasons it was not a success.

Gordon Bennett, Ray.  That was quick.  Thanks.

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5 hours ago, Axster said:

These restrictions only apply though when the boat is going through locks, aqueducts or tunnels. When moored up for the night, these restrictions do not apply.
 

 

This premise of your post is not strictly true I'm afraid. There are plenty of popular moorings where it's more or less expected that you may need to brest up against other boats. 

Edited by blackrose
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23 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

This premise of your post is not strictly true I'm afraid. There are plenty of popular moorings where it's more or less expected that you may need to brest up against other boats. 

I read :

 

These restrictions only apply though when the boat is going through locks, aqueducts or tunnels. When moored up for the night, these restrictions do not apply.

 

As relating simply to the dimensions that affect the ability to cruise. (Remember the OP's location)

 

Why would breasting up stop you lifting the roof height ?

 

Image result for caravette lifting roof

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Whitefield was a bold if somewhat flawed attempt to produce a boat in the concept which the OP suggests. 

When Whitefield was built by Fernwood boats to get what they wanted it cost the customer in the region of £250K, about 8-10 years ago. Fernwood was about the only yard that would put their concept into reality.

 

Re read their approach philosophy.

 

But I've just got used to smart steering wheels, bow and stern thrusters, depth and speed gauges and stern camera for reverse docking up to the pontoons. There's just not enough gadgets Alison on a  canal boat ! "

 

' How about replacing the tiller with a joystick, have depth, speed and rudder position gauges, a GPS and a bow camera for checking its clear before venturing out of the Marina. And then of course, the inside would have to be totally different too. '

And so armed with our list, we looked at web sites and then visited several boat builders to put forward our thoughts. Now that was interesting!  Many of them just stared with their eyes seeming to glaze over as we tried to explain our bizarre concept for the cut. The lights were on but there was certainly nobody home at many of the places we visited.

Others trotted out such phrases such as:  "We haven't done that before".

Some even came out with such out of keeping comments that we knew they hadn't really fully digested the tablet. i.e. " We have a sign writer who is very good at decorative watering cans "….What ?

I’ve also forgot to mention that all areas have a telly, five in all, just so we can keep up with the news when going to the loo, working on the computer, going to bed or having a shower. Over the top or what!

 

Some of the reasons it was unsuitable for the English Canals:

 

The gunwales were teak bolted on to metal, inevitably there was water ingress.

On the way to the Crick boat show the electronic cratch cover was damaged in Crick tunnel as it was slightly out of gauge.

With the high seating position the steerer had to lean over to get through low bridges.

The joystick steering was not as precise a a conventional tiller.

I stand correction here but I believe it had 4 azimuth pod thrusters to assist with steering, these got stuck in the mud when mooring up. (For the OP the profile of the canal bed is saucer shaped, shallower at the edges.)

There were only two halogen halogen hobs for food preparation as the lady of the boat didn't like cooking and they decided they would eat in pubs.

 

The list goes on, but you get the idea.

A few years ago the owners put the boat up for sale circa £90k, if I remember correctly it took some 18 months to sell. 

 

I have no idea where it is now.

 

Doing a "search" of Whitefield will bring up more information, it has already been discussed in depth here.

 

The English canals are a 250 year old transport system, IMHO builders need to work with in that parameter.

 

 

WHITEFIELD---00170.jpg

WHITEFIELD---00197.jpg

WHITEFIELD---00108.jpg

Sunday.doc

Edited by Ray T
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4 hours ago, matty40s said:

There is also the factor of numbers, there are not enough boats sold to justify any large scale product development or technological research. The market is a unique one for one island with a particular type of historical navigation construction, boats built tend to reflect that early craft design.

The only real advance ( if you can call it that) is fitting larger and more complex electrical systems with advanced generation and storage methods so new boaters can live with the same facilities and encumberances that they fit their houses with.

Which adds noise and particulate pollution to us simple folk who prefer birdsong to Japanese diesels or ergosploshers when we tie up.

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6 hours ago, Axster said:

Why, for instance, there are no lifting roofs ......................................

There are......


.......they are called "pram hoods", one of the most horrible looking things to ever get attached to a narrow boat, but now fitted in ever increasing numbers.

Most make it impossible to realistically cruise safely on a typical British canal, particularly the narrow ones, o their sole purpose seems to be to increase the inside volume of the boat when tied up.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I read :

 

These restrictions only apply though when the boat is going through locks, aqueducts or tunnels. When moored up for the night, these restrictions do not apply.

 

As relating simply to the dimensions that affect the ability to cruise. (Remember the OP's location)

 

Why would breasting up stop you lifting the roof height ?

 

 

 

It wouldn't, but the OP was also talking about mooring restrictions not just cruising dimensions: 

 

When moored up for the night, these restrictions do not apply.

 

You quoted it yourself!

 

I'm just saying that sometimes restrictions do apply even when mooring. You wouldn't want protrusions sticking out from the side of the boat towards the waterway for other boats to hit for example, that might also prevent other boats from bresting up.

Edited by blackrose
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E

6 hours ago, DandV said:

 Unlike most boating where leak causing collisions are invariably on the hull, narrowboats are subject to collisions everywhere from the extreme top of the cabin to the deepest point on the hull. Low bridges attack the roof top. Bridge arches and tunnel sides the eves, Overhanging trees anywhere on the boat and may well be unavoidable when passing another boat, given the vagrancies of wind and water displacement. Patching the paint to a steel deckhouse, or even refitting a snagged chimney is easy compared to dealing with an impact damaged lifting roof structure.

This is overstating the dangers a bit I think. Yes the front corners can take a bash and the chimney can be vulnerable, but the usual lowish-level rooftop gubbins - storage boxes, solar panels - isn't really at risk of anything more than a scrape from a branch, is it?

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

 

This premise of your post is not strictly true I'm afraid. There are plenty of popular moorings where it's more or less expected that you may need to brest up against other boats. 

Maybe, but surely there are vastly more places to moor where there's no such expectation.

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2 minutes ago, magictime said:

 

Maybe, but surely there are vastly more places to moor where there's no such expectation.

 

Depends where you cruise. There weren't vastly more places where there was no such expectation during my 4 years on the Thames.

 

I know it's called a canal forum but some of us do venture further afield where things are a bit different.

Edited by blackrose
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4 minutes ago, magictime said:

E

This is overstating the dangers a bit I think. Yes the front corners can take a bash and the chimney can be vulnerable, but the usual lowish-level rooftop gubbins - storage boxes, solar panels - isn't really at risk of anything more than a scrape from a branch, is it?

Maybe, but surely there are vastly more places to moor where there's no such expectation.

We were just in front of a boat up the tidal Yorkshire Ouse that got swept through the willows on the outside of a bend. The roof took a solid scrape with everything on top being swept overboard, chimney,  plant boxes, buckby can. The stearer told us at  Naburn lock  afterwards, that the two inch willow branches had no intention  giving way to him either,  at 5plus knots, as they sprang down over the back of the cabin. He thought the dog had gone overboard in the commotion but it had fled to safety under a bed.

 

 

 

  • Greenie 1
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28 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

It wouldn't, but the OP was also talking about mooring restrictions not just cruising dimensions: 

 

When moored up for the night, these restrictions do not apply.

 

You quoted it yourself!

 

 

Which mooring restrictions are you referring to ?

 

The OP was actually talking about the fact that the dimensions are limited for cruising, but do not come into play when mooring :

 

7 hours ago, Axster said:

…...the only limiting factors are width, length and height if you want to be able to cruise all or the majority of the canals. These restrictions only apply though when the boat is going through locks, aqueducts or tunnels. When moored up for the night, these restrictions do not apply.

I agree with him - as far as I am aware there are no restrictions in dimensions for mooring (except on a 'paid for mooring' where you 'rent' a specific length/width)

 

Hypothetically - You moor up for the night and 'wind out' the beam of your boat, and from 7 foot you now become 10 feet - how is that any different to the 12 foot wide 'fat-boat' moored in front of you ?

 

Where is there any evidence that you can 'only moor if you are under 7 feet wide, or 6 feet high' (for example) ?

 

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1 hour ago, Ray T said:

Whitefield was a bold if somewhat flawed attempt to produce a boat in the concept which the OP suggests. 

When Whitefield was built by Fernwood boats to get what they wanted it cost the customer in the region of £250K, about 8-10 years ago. Fernwood was about the only yard that would put their concept into reality.

 

Re read their approach philosophy.

 

But I've just got used to smart steering wheels, bow and stern thrusters, depth and speed gauges and stern camera for reverse docking up to the pontoons. There's just not enough gadgets Alison on a  canal boat ! "

 

' How about replacing the tiller with a joystick, have depth, speed and rudder position gauges, a GPS and a bow camera for checking its clear before venturing out of the Marina. And then of course, the inside would have to be totally different too. '

And so armed with our list, we looked at web sites and then visited several boat builders to put forward our thoughts. Now that was interesting!  Many of them just stared with their eyes seeming to glaze over as we tried to explain our bizarre concept for the cut. The lights were on but there was certainly nobody home at many of the places we visited.

Others trotted out such phrases such as:  "We haven't done that before".

Some even came out with such out of keeping comments that we knew they hadn't really fully digested the tablet. i.e. " We have a sign writer who is very good at decorative watering cans "….What ?

I’ve also forgot to mention that all areas have a telly, five in all, just so we can keep up with the news when going to the loo, working on the computer, going to bed or having a shower. Over the top or what!

 

Some of the reasons it was unsuitable for the English Canals:

 

The gunwales were teak bolted on to metal, inevitably there was water ingress.

On the way to the Crick boat show the electronic cratch cover was damaged in Crick tunnel as it was slightly out of gauge.

With the high seating position the steerer had to lean over to get through low bridges.

The joystick steering was not as precise a a conventional tiller.

I stand correction here but I believe it had 4 azimuth pod thrusters to assist with steering, these got stuck in the mud when mooring up. (For the OP the profile of the canal bed is saucer shaped, shallower at the edges.)

There were only two halogen halogen hobs for food preparation as the lady of the boat didn't like cooking and they decided they would eat in pubs.

 

The list goes on, but you get the idea.

A few years ago the owners put the boat up for sale circa £90k, if I remember correctly it took some 18 months to sell. 

 

I have no idea where it is now.

Sunday.doc 29 kB · 1 download

It was moored a few berths down from us at Aston marina, certainly until last year.  According to the site staff it hadn't moved for a couple of years.

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11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Which mooring restrictions are you referring to ?

 

The OP was actually talking about the fact that the dimensions are limited for cruising, but do not come into play when mooring :

 

I agree with him - as far as I am aware there are no restrictions in dimensions for mooring (except on a 'paid for mooring' where you 'rent' a specific length/width)

 

Hypothetically - You moor up for the night and 'wind out' the beam of your boat, and from 7 foot you now become 10 feet - how is that any different to the 12 foot wide 'fat-boat' moored in front of you ?

 

Where is there any evidence that you can 'only moor if you are under 7 feet wide, or 6 feet high' (for example) ?

 

If you inadvertently run sides with a normal fat boat there would be no additional damage to any other hull to hull contact, or hull to lock wall contact. But hull to off side extended deck would probably be a whole different matter.

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Just now, DandV said:

If you inadvertently run sides with a normal fat boat there would be no additional damage to any other hull to hull contact, or hull to lock wall contact. But hull to off side extended deck would probably be a whole different matter.

Agree - But that is simply a case for the owners own risk assessment / insurance.

Why should 'we' be concerned if another persons boat becomes damaged die to (say) handling errors ?

I repeat - Where is the legislation that states you can only moor your boat if it is a certain width, length or height ?

 

One issue I can foresee is at what length / beam do you licence it ?

 

Image result for motor home extending side

 

Image result for motor home extending side

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7 hours ago, Axster said:

Hi all,
This is my first post on the forum and although I read a lot, my experience with narrowboats is limited, so please correct my ignorance when I state nonsense.
I have lived on sailboats and innovation with regard to living space is limited by the need for safety and performance as a sailing vessel. This isn't true for canal boats, the only limiting factors are width, length and height if you want to be able to cruise all or the majority of the canals. These restrictions only apply though when the boat is going through locks, aqueducts or tunnels. When moored up for the night, these restrictions do not apply.
So I wonder why none of the tiny house innovations have made their way onto narrowboats. Why, for instance, there are no lifting roofs - beds embedded in the ceiling, when anchored one raises the roof by 3ft and creates a loft space. Or even a fold-down deck on the side. 
There seems to be some innovation on the technical side. Plenty of hybrid boats on the water now that are solar/generator driven and work from an electric motor. That's great, but when it comes to innovation on the shape and function (in terms of living space)  of the boats I see very little innovation. Or maybe that's just me being ignorant :P
I'd love to hear your thoughts!

 

5 hours ago, matty40s said:

There is also the factor of numbers, there are not enough boats sold to justify any large scale product development or technological research. The market is a unique one for one island with a particular type of historical navigation construction, boats built tend to reflect that early craft design.

The only real advance ( if you can call it that) is fitting larger and more complex electrical systems with advanced generation and storage methods so new boaters can live with the same facilities and encumberances that they fit their houses with.

 

I think Matty's answer about sums it up.  You have to bear in mind that the narrowboat industry, with one or two exceptions, is really a collection of small cottage industries, some of which are literally one man operators.  It would be a heck of a risk to sink a lot of money into researching and developing some new space increasing innovation.  Every so often someone does come up with a bright idea that you might think would catch on, take Sea Otter aluminium boats for example, but the market is so relatively small it's almost doomed from the start. 

 

Having said that, I think builders are pushing the limits of internal headroom these days and pram covers are becoming increasingly common, so maybe there will come a tipping point where it's worth someone investing in a new solution to the problem of restricted air draught.   

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