Leeds & Liverpool Canal - Deer Trap?

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Having travelled reasonably widely on the canal system, in the last three days I've come across something that, until now has been a bit of a rarity, deer in the canal. We have only been on the Leeds/Liverpool since Leigh and are now at Appley so in no more than 12 miles we've come across 3 deer in the canal, two dead one's and, today, a live one near Ell Meadow lock. Fortunately the live one managed to struggle out on the non-towpath side where there was a bit of a reed bed.

 

Looking at the design of the canal it is clearly difficult for the deer to get out because the canal bank is a sheer wall at least a couple of feet high (it would also be difficult for a person to get out as well!). I was contemplating sending an e-mail to CRT to suggest the same sort of 'deer escape' piles of stones that I've seen on other canals (I think they have something similar on the Aire and Calder but am willing to be corrected). Before offering this suggestion to CRT I thought I'd get the opinions of others since what it is effectively suggesting is that stuff (rocks) be dumped into the canal at regular intervals to enable deer to escape (and give boaters something else to hit).

 

There are several sides to the argument, on the one hand deer in the UK have no natural predators (other than the motor car) so it may help to thin their numbers out in this way. On the other hand who wants to pull a dead and rotting deer out of the canal, and if you don't, it's corpse will eventually get stuck behind a lock gate or in a paddle somewhere.

 

Any opinions?

Edited May 8, 2019 by Wanderer Vagabond

[Alan de Enfield]

As I have reported previously, I think our record is 10 dead deer in one day on the Fossdyke (in just 12 miles between Torksey and Lincoln)

 

There are deer-ramps built from rocks every 1/2 - 1 mile but with the canal being fairly narrow they do impinge into the canal and you do have to steer around them, and. know they are there and 'sticking out' under the water.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As I have reported previously, I think our record is 10 dead deer in one day on the Fossdyke (in just 12 miles between Torksey and Lincoln)

 

There are deer-ramps built from rocks every 1/2 - 1 mile but with the canal being fairly narrow they do impinge into the canal and you do have to steer around them, and. know they are there and 'sticking out' under the water.

Yes that might have been one of the canals I was thinking about as well. I think they put a warning sign on the bank to advise you of them as you approach don't they?

 

It's  bit of a tricky question really, since they have no predators is it better for a few deer to drown in the canals and rivers to keep their numbers down? On the other hand if the canals and rivers are a bit of a deer trap, who's the poor b*gger who will have to drag the corpses out? It's bad enough to get a corpse caught in a lock gate or paddle but I really wouldn't want to pick up a rotted corpse from the canal bed around my prop.

 

As your comment illustrates though, deer ramps aren't a perfect solution.

[Sea Dog]

1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Any opinions?

Yes. There are now so many deer that you're much more likely to see dead ones.  We used to glimpse the odd (live) one in cover by the lane where we live - now there can be 30 or 40 standing in the road and they move for vehicles at their leisure. The numbers involved in accidents on the dual carriageway nearby has also increased dramatically. No predators, you see, and culling Bambi has become unacceptable.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

culling Bambi has become unacceptable.

But there is now no closed season for Muntjac and Chinese Water Deer.

[Peter X]

I've only ever eaten venison twice, but it was rather tasty. If there are too many deer in the wild, and of course my personal observation is that Croydon is not overrun by them, maybe there should be some scheme for hunting some of them and converting excess Bambis into food? Before they fall into a canal, suffer what I suppose would be an unpleasant death, and then the corpse rots and becomes a nuisance.

The only dead animals I can remember seeing in canals are fish (often), a badger in the GU in west London, and a dog in the Coventry.

[LEO]

Tricky, there are now so many small deer that they have almost become a nuisance. One actually lives in my garden (the house is half a mile from Chesham town centre).  It is a pest and eats all my runner beans when I try to grow them, but none the less it has been a 'resident' for about 3 years now and I would quite miss it if it left. 

I too see them drowned in the canal along the Tring summit, sadly there is not much you can do to prevent this. If you are driving and hit one, it's generally an expensive repair to the car and if you try to rescue an injured one take care, they have small sharp horns, it's best to try to cover their head with a cloth to calm them down. The RSPCA  round here (Chilterns) are not very helpful with injured animals, a local animal hospital St Tigglewinkles at Haddenham are far better.

[BruceinSanity]

The problem is the lack of an apex predator to control the deer population. Reintroducing the wolf would deal with that. Contrary to their popular image, wolves are afraid of humans and prefer to avoid them.

[Grassman]

10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As I have reported previously, I think our record is 10 dead deer in one day on the Fossdyke (in just 12 miles between Torksey and Lincoln)

 

There are deer-ramps built from rocks every 1/2 - 1 mile but with the canal being fairly narrow they do impinge into the canal and you do have to steer around them, and. know they are there and 'sticking out' under the water.

The problem with those 'deer ramps' on the Fossdyke is that many of those piles of rocks have slipped under the surface. Boaters can see the warning notices and avoid them but the poor deer that have fallen in cannot see them as a way of getting out because they're below the water and therefore not visible.

 

Last year we came across a deer swimming about frantically trying to get out. A few minutes later we came across some EA chaps in a small boat with an outboard and asked if they could help. They said they'd given up trying to rescue the deer because it happened so often they'd be spending most of their time doing it instead of working. Two days later on our return from Lincoln to Torksey we came across it floating in the water. 

 

Very sad.

[Neil2]

10 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Having travelled reasonably widely on the canal system, in the last three days I've come across something that, until now has been a bit of a rarity, deer in the canal. We have only been on the Leeds/Liverpool since Leigh and are now at Appley so in no more than 12 miles we've come across 3 deer in the canal, two dead one's and, today, a live one near Ell Meadow lock. Fortunately the live one managed to struggle out on the non-towpath side where there was a bit of a reed bed.

 

Looking at the design of the canal it is clearly difficult for the deer to get out because the canal bank is a sheer wall at least a couple of feet high (it would also be difficult for a person to get out as well!). I was contemplating sending an e-mail to CRT to suggest the same sort of 'deer escape' piles of stones that I've seen on other canals (I think they have something similar on the Aire and Calder but am willing to be corrected). Before offering this suggestion to CRT I thought I'd get the opinions of others since what it is effectively suggesting is that stuff (rocks) be dumped into the canal at regular intervals to enable deer to escape (and give boaters something else to hit).

 

There are several sides to the argument, on the one hand deer in the UK have no natural predators (other than the motor car) so it may help to thin their numbers out in this way. On the other hand who wants to pull a dead and rotting deer out of the canal, and if you don't, it's corpse will eventually get stuck behind a lock gate or in a paddle somewhere.

 

Any opinions?

When we were down that way a couple of weeks ago there was actually an item on BBC North West about this.  Over the last couple of years for some reason the Leeds Liverpool and the adjoining Bridgewater canal have seen increasing numbers of deer finding their way into the water but unable to get out.   Last year I managed to pull one such out onto the deck of the boat and eventually to safety, it was pouring with rain and I remember two lads sheltering under a bridge looking on while I struggled with this poor creature.  They were probably thinking the world wouldn't miss one deer, and living in the Highlands I know very well that there is an issue with over population, but humanely culling and watching them drown in the canal isn't the same thing.

 

Cows are good at falling in the cut too, we've seen several but they float very well and the story about one bovine swimming the length of Foulridge tunnel is well known - and true.

 

    

 

 

[pete.i]

There were four dead in the water on the Aire and Calder Navigation (Goole Canal) the other day when we went out and that was only just up beyond Rawcliffe Bridge. One was even floating in one of the piles of rocks that have been tipped in to the canal to help them get out. Of course it could have drifted there but I felt that it was a bit ironic that the poor beast had died within the sight of safety. 

2 hours ago, LEO said:

Tricky, there are now so many small deer that they have almost become a nuisance. One actually lives in my garden (the house is half a mile from Chesham town centre).  It is a pest and eats all my runner beans when I try to grow them, but none the less it has been a 'resident' for about 3 years now and I would quite miss it if it left. 

I too see them drowned in the canal along the Tring summit, sadly there is not much you can do to prevent this. If you are driving and hit one, it's generally an expensive repair to the car and if you try to rescue an injured one take care, they have small sharp horns, it's best to try to cover their head with a cloth to calm them down. The RSPCA  round here (Chilterns) are not very helpful with injured animals, a local animal hospital St Tigglewinkles at Haddenham are far better.

Hi Leo hope everything is okay with you and your's. Re. your remark about the RSPCA. In my, limited I will admit, experience of the RSPCA they are not particularly helpful with anything these days.

[Sea Dog]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But there is now no closed season for Muntjac and Chinese Water Deer.

That's cos they is foreigners, innit. Coming over here taking the grass out British deers' mouths!

 

Our prolific local deer are Roe. Beautiful, but crikey they're having a big impact where we live.

 

[Psychalist]

Certainly plenty of Roe deer in east Lancashire. Over the years we see more an more. Apart from seeing the odd one foraging on our road, and eating our daffs, on the hill opposite between us and the canal, I counted around 80 last year so herds appear to be getting larger. Building escape ramps for them on the L&L round here doesn't appear to be necessary due to the natural decay of the system is creating them anyway.

/G

[Mike Tee]

As previously said, why let them have an unpleasant death, and then be a health hazard in the canals / rivers that somebody has to sort out. Cull them and sell the meat - it really is tasty.

[carlt]

1 hour ago, BruceinSanity said:

 Contrary to their popular image, wolves are afraid of humans and prefer to avoid them.

 

Have you not read "Red Riding Hood"?

 

[Jim Riley]

Somewhere round Burnley I recall seeing horse ramps periodically along the cut. No use to deer if they aren't where the deer fall in though. 

[Sea Dog]

3 hours ago, Jim Riley said:

Somewhere round Burnley I recall seeing horse ramps periodically along the cut. No use to deer if they aren't where the deer fall in though. 

Aren't those ramps around Burnley to get stolen cars back out?

 

[Mike Todd]

4 hours ago, Jim Riley said:

Somewhere round Burnley I recall seeing horse ramps periodically along the cut. No use to deer if they aren't where the deer fall in though. 

And on the very southernmost parts of the GU, I recall.

[Dr Bob]

Two dead dear this week. One in the Stockton locks and one by the Blue Lias.

[IanD]

Venison, yum yum. Used to send the kids to school with packed lunches, they wound up the other kids by replying "Bambi" when asked what was in their sarnies. Or even better, "Bambi's mum" ?

[Jen-in-Wellies]

6 hours ago, BruceinSanity said:

The problem is the lack of an apex predator to control the deer population. Reintroducing the wolf would deal with that. Contrary to their popular image, wolves are afraid of humans and prefer to avoid them.

Wolves are smart enough to not leave any living witnesses when they attack humans. Dolphins are even smarter. They fit up some poor thicko shark to take the blame.

[MtB]

5 hours ago, carlt said:

 

Have you not read "Red Riding Hood"?

 

 

I'll let you into a secret.

 

I'm now reasonably sure "Red Riding Hood" is not a true story....

 

 

[roland elsdon]

Im pretty sure little red riding hood is nowadays on the banned list for being sexist racist anti lbgtav8 ( or whatever) or even wolvist.

[Pluto]

There are numerous ramps for horses to get out on the L&LC, such as this one at Rishton. However, they do tend to be in built up areas where there was a greater chance of a horse being pulled in if the boat they were towing struck a moored boat. In Leeds they were known as 'dog washes', and used for that purpose at the weekend. You can also find numerous ramps on the off side which provide access to the water for livestock. Around 1895-1905, there was a problem with farmers washing their sheep in the canal. A survey was done, and the farmers identified. It was agreed that farmers through whose land the canal passed could use it for washing, whilst the others had to stop. Several thousand sheep were washed annually in the canal at this time. There still seems to be  many places where animals can escape from the canal, and any new slopes would just add to the considerable backlog there is with regard to dredging.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

10 hours ago, LEO said:

Tricky, there are now so many small deer that they have almost become a nuisance. One actually lives in my garden (the house is half a mile from Chesham town centre).  It is a pest and eats all my runner beans when I try to grow them, but none the less it has been a 'resident' for about 3 years now and I would quite miss it if it left. 

I too see them drowned in the canal along the Tring summit, sadly there is not much you can do to prevent this. If you are driving and hit one, it's generally an expensive repair to the car and if you try to rescue an injured one take care, they have small sharp horns, it's best to try to cover their head with a cloth to calm them down. The RSPCA  round here (Chilterns) are not very helpful with injured animals, a local animal hospital St Tigglewinkles at Haddenham are far better.

To be honest, I do have some sympathy with the RSPCA on this one. When working we were regularly called up to Haldon Hill, just outside Exeter for vehicle strikes on deer and even if they aren't killed outright, the shock usually finishes them off. If they were still alive, we always called out a vet to euthanise them which. on one occasion led to a bit of a stand off with the motorist who had hit it. He was becoming increasingly insistent that we should take the deer away and treat it, despite the Vet's insistence that even when you do, they invariably die. It does however mean that the vet has to dispose of the corpse since if he didn't there was the risk that someone might find it and try to eat the venison (now contaminated with the toxin used to euthanise it).

 

I would be reluctant to try to pull a deer out of the canal for pretty much this reason (and the risk of injury). I would perhaps try to 'encourage' it out possibly using the boat to drive it towards somewhere it has a chance of getting out itself, but I'm not going to put myself at risk of ending out in the canal, as I said earlier, in this area it looks as though it would be difficult to get a person out of the water given the high sides. How many people have died trying to save a dog?

 

Having been to a lot of deer strikes by vehicles, I can say that often the damage caused to the vehicle is minimal since deer are quite tall and tend to get their legs swept away and come across the bonnet (except with Chelsea Tractors). The one's that cause the real damage are badgers, they are low in height, invariably go under the vehicle causing all manner of damage...and are well hard! Three of the badger collisions I've been to, the car was rendered undriveable and had to be towed away,(on one the track rod on the steering had separated) all of the deer strikes have left the cars driveable (but damaged), don't tangle with a badger!

 

From the comments thus far, I don't think I'll bother CRT, next time I see a deer in the canal I'll regard it as 'taking one for the team' to help keep numbers down. I also accept that culling them can be difficult as their natural habitat tends to be woodland and since you aren't allowed to cull most of them with anything less than a 0.240 calibre round and firing at ground level in woodland is likely to cull other things (like people). What you need is deer at the bottom of a hill, with you at the top firing down onto them with a solid backstop behind them. Deer rarely co-operate with this ideal and have the additional habit of coming out mostly at night, when you are forbidden to shoot them without a specific licence to do so. As others have said, they would be a useful food source if more culling were done and I think something ought to be done about numbers since the more deer there are, the more Lyme disease infections are likely to occur and at the moment the only control on numbers is from vehicle strikes and, apparently, canal and river drownings.