Engine Recommendation

[Pierre Thomas]

I’m looking to replace an old 1950s Hanomag 55hp truck engine. 

 

Budget ex-fitting is around £5-10,000. 

 

It’s for a barge, 18m long. The propellor is around 18” and although I think it will be replaced to match the new engine it can’t be much bigger. 

 

The barge the is used on canals and the occasional river

 

What  would people recommend? Both any ideas on specific engines but maybe in terms of horsepower to achieve moderate cruising speeds quietly with good fuel economy. 

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Pierre Thomas said:

I’m looking to replace an old 1950s Hanomag 55hp truck engine. 

 

Budget ex-fitting is around £5-10,000. 

 

It’s for a barge, 18m long. The propellor is around 18” and although I think it will be replaced to match the new engine it can’t be much bigger. 

 

The barge the is used on canals and the occasional river

 

What  would people recommend? Both any ideas on specific engines but maybe in terms of horsepower to achieve moderate cruising speeds quietly with good fuel economy. 

Are you thinking UK Canals & Rivers or European Canals & Rivers ?

[Tony Brooks]

and by "barge" do you mean  narrowboat or a wider vessel?

[Pierre Thomas]

A barge 3.8m wide used on the quieter French canals. 

[Tony Brooks]

So as I don't know the easy availability of spares something marinised by Nanni but I suspect it may have to be second hand for the price.

[Bee]

If the biggest propeller you can fit is around 18" and the Hanomag handles it happily and you are happy with the boats speed and performance then you do not need more power than the Hanomag. In fact its likely that the Hanomag has not been able to produce 55 hp for quite a long time.  As an example the marinised 2 litre Kubota engine that Nanni and Beta sell is reckoned to be 43 HP and Beta recommend an 18" prop for that, 18 x 12 I think but I might be wrong. There's a lot of barges with old 100 hp Daf engines in them but they are wasting a lot of that power and fuel on spinning a small prop. Personally I would reckon a 2 litre diesel with suitable prop is the minimum  for an 18m barge. I would look at Nanni and Beta websites to get more ideas and then search on the various e bay type sites and see what comes up.  You might find the Dutch Barge Association website helpful to ask for advice on. Good luck.

[mrsmelly]

48 minutes ago, Bee said:

If the biggest propeller you can fit is around 18" and the Hanomag handles it happily and you are happy with the boats speed and performance then you do not need more power than the Hanomag. In fact its likely that the Hanomag has not been able to produce 55 hp for quite a long time.  As an example the marinised 2 litre Kubota engine that Nanni and Beta sell is reckoned to be 43 HP and Beta recommend an 18" prop for that, 18 x 12 I think but I might be wrong. There's a lot of barges with old 100 hp Daf engines in them but they are wasting a lot of that power and fuel on spinning a small prop. Personally I would reckon a 2 litre diesel with suitable prop is the minimum  for an 18m barge. I would look at Nanni and Beta websites to get more ideas and then search on the various e bay type sites and see what comes up.  You might find the Dutch Barge Association website helpful to ask for advice on. Good luck.

Indeed you are correct, 18 x 12 is what would be fitted to a narrowboat with that eengine. I would suggest any engine will do provided its Japanese based.

[Flyboy]

24 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Indeed you are correct, 18 x 12 is what would be fitted to a narrowboat with that eengine. I would suggest any engine will do provided its Japanese based.

Yes but with a 2:1 ratio gearbox.

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

Yes but with a 2:1 ratio gearbox.

Correct.

[peterboat]

I ha

4 hours ago, Pierre Thomas said:

I’m looking to replace an old 1950s Hanomag 55hp truck engine. 

 

Budget ex-fitting is around £5-10,000. 

 

It’s for a barge, 18m long. The propellor is around 18” and although I think it will be replaced to match the new engine it can’t be much bigger. 

 

The barge the is used on canals and the occasional river

 

What  would people recommend? Both any ideas on specific engines but maybe in terms of horsepower to achieve moderate cruising speeds quietly with good fuel economy. 

I have a 50 hp Barrus shire including Gearbox [2 to 1] exhaust and control panel for sale, its a twin alternator model and has done just over 1000 hours, it was serviced before removal and ran very well. It was in a 57 x 12 foot widebeam which it moved very easily, its for sale for £2500 but you would have to collect and fit it yourself. It was an instant starter and smoke free, if you fancy it PM me for more details or a chat about it

[MtB]

 

I'm surprised Peterboat isn't recommending you get a big solar panel and the motor from an ecofan!!

 

 

[Pierre Thomas]

16 hours ago, peterboat said:

I ha

I have a 50 hp Barrus shire including Gearbox [2 to 1] exhaust and control panel for sale, its a twin alternator model and has done just over 1000 hours, it was serviced before removal and ran very well. It was in a 57 x 12 foot widebeam which it moved very easily, its for sale for £2500 but you would have to collect and fit it yourself. It was an instant starter and smoke free, if you fancy it PM me for more details or a chat about it

Interesting.  This sounds about right. I’ll get in touch. It may have to be on Thursday because it’s holiday tomorrow and we’ll be a bit busy. Thank you. 

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm surprised Peterboat isn't recommending you get a big solar panel and the motor from an ecofan!!

 

 

We looked into converting her into a hovercraft to cope with some of the shallower bits. 

[peterboat]

4 minutes ago, Pierre Thomas said:

Interesting.  This sounds about right. I’ll get in touch. It may have to be on Thursday because it’s holiday tomorrow and we’ll be a bit busy. Thank you. 

We looked into converting her into a hovercraft to cope with some of the shallower bits. 

No problems I have converted my boat to electric, which for me works very well

[Pierre Thomas]

19 hours ago, Bee said:

If the biggest propeller you can fit is around 18" and the Hanomag handles it happily and you are happy with the boats speed and performance then you do not need more power than the Hanomag. In fact its likely that the Hanomag has not been able to produce 55 hp for quite a long time.  As an example the marinised 2 litre Kubota engine that Nanni and Beta sell is reckoned to be 43 HP and Beta recommend an 18" prop for that, 18 x 12 I think but I might be wrong. There's a lot of barges with old 100 hp Daf engines in them but they are wasting a lot of that power and fuel on spinning a small prop. Personally I would reckon a 2 litre diesel with suitable prop is the minimum  for an 18m barge. I would look at Nanni and Beta websites to get more ideas and then search on the various e bay type sites and see what comes up.  You might find the Dutch Barge Association website helpful to ask for advice on. Good luck.

The boat is a bit sluggish. It’s my impression that most of the push happens at low revolutions and then nothing much else happens when you try to increase speed. I have yet to see the propellor, the survey says 530mm steel, the draft is quite low at 800mm so I would be surprised if there was room for more. The eclusiers all allow an extra 50% time between locks for barges over hire boats so maybe I’m expecting too much. 

[mrsmelly]

21 hours ago, peterboat said:

I ha

I have a 50 hp Barrus shire including Gearbox [2 to 1] exhaust and control panel for sale, its a twin alternator model and has done just over 1000 hours, it was serviced before removal and ran very well. It was in a 57 x 12 foot widebeam which it moved very easily, its for sale for £2500 but you would have to collect and fit it yourself. It was an instant starter and smoke free, if you fancy it PM me for more details or a chat about it

Nowt to do with me but this unit with those hours at that price you will find hard pushed to beat.

[Tony Brooks]

5 hours ago, Pierre Thomas said:

The boat is a bit sluggish. It’s my impression that most of the push happens at low revolutions and then nothing much else happens when you try to increase speed. I have yet to see the propellor, the survey says 530mm steel, the draft is quite low at 800mm so I would be surprised if there was room for more. The eclusiers all allow an extra 50% time between locks for barges over hire boats so maybe I’m expecting too much. 

 

I did a quick calculation for maximum hull speed in open water and came up with 8 or 9 knots but that is in open water. I used 1,25 as the hull constant but yours may be more or less even if anyone actually knows what it is.

 

I had to guess the water line length so if your boat has a clipper type stern with a large overhang or teh bows extend well beyond the waterline my speeds will be optimistic, you could be back in the 6 or 7 knots area.

 

What you seem to be saying is either the engine will not rev up and if so that is an indication of being over propped or the engine revs up but the boat will not speed up. Actually I expect the stern squats in the water. This indicates that you are trying to go too fast for the depth of water and waterway bed profile. In the UK on canals we can hit that limit with a narrowboat at about 2.5 mph on some canals. A further indication of over driving the boat is excess wash and possibly heavy/juddering steering.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Tony Brooks

[Jen-in-Wellies]

14 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Nowt to do with me but this unit with those hours at that price you will find hard pushed to beat.

Particularly with the current Euro/Sterling exchange rate.

[mrsmelly]

34 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Particularly with the current Euro/Sterling exchange rate.

I hadnt even considered, funny money. Deffo a bargain and not around when I am looking for such a thing!!

[blackrose]

8 hours ago, Pierre Thomas said:

The boat is a bit sluggish. It’s my impression that most of the push happens at low revolutions and then nothing much else happens when you try to increase speed. I have yet to see the propellor, the survey says 530mm steel, the draft is quite low at 800mm so I would be surprised if there was room for more. The eclusiers all allow an extra 50% time between locks for barges over hire boats so maybe I’m expecting too much. 

 

It might just be over-propped. My boat has a 55hp Isuzu which revs to 3000rmp out of gear but would only rev to 2300rpm in gear in open water, which meant I was only actually getting about 42hp according to the engine power curves. I had the prop pitch reduced by an inch and a half and half an inch taken off the diameter and now I get about 2700rpm and a lot more power.

[Sea Dog]

9 hours ago, Pierre Thomas said:

The boat is a bit sluggish. It’s my impression that most of the push happens at low revolutions and then nothing much else happens when you try to increase speed. I have yet to see the propellor, the survey says 530mm steel, the draft is quite low at 800mm so I would be surprised if there was room for more. The eclusiers all allow an extra 50% time between locks for barges over hire boats so maybe I’m expecting too much. 

Pierre, are you familiar with the shallow water effect? This could be why your boat gets up to a certain speed pretty well but more power and revs make little difference to speed and in fact may cause it to become slower. How is it in deeper water?

[blackrose]

Yes you need to be in deep water, otherwise the rest of this is a waste of time..

 

Have a look at this which gives a basic guide to propellor sizing.

 

https://www.vicprop.com/calculator.htm

Edited May 8, 2019 by blackrose

[mrsmelly]

11 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Pierre, are you familiar with the shallow water effect? This could be why your boat gets up to a certain speed pretty well but more power and revs make little difference to speed and in fact may cause it to become slower. How is it in deeper water?

Quite right. The Op could do worse than google " Squat effect " something many boaters dont understand and something the MCA questioned me on when skippering on the Trent.

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Quite right. The Op could do worse than google " Squat effect " something many boaters dont understand and something the MCA questioned me on when skippering on the Trent.

Why, what had you been doing? ?

[Pierre Thomas]

21 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Pierre, are you familiar with the shallow water effect? This could be why your boat gets up to a certain speed pretty well but more power and revs make little difference to speed and in fact may cause it to become slower. How is it in deeper water?

My impression is that it’s not this, there’s enough water and I’m not talking about waterskiing. It’s at much slower speeds. However the next stage of the plan is to improve the cooling and then do some ‘sea trials’ on the river. 

[Pierre Thomas]

On 07/05/2019 at 19:07, Tony Brooks said:

 

I did a quick calculation for maximum hull speed in open water and came up with 8 or 9 knots but that is in open water. I used 1,25 as the hull constant but yours may be more or less even if anyone actually knows what it is.

 

I had to guess the water line length so if your boat has a clipper type stern with a large overhang or teh bows extend well beyond the waterline my speeds will be optimistic, you could be back in the 6 or 7 knots area.

 

What you seem to be saying is either the engine will not rev up and if so that is an indication of being over propped or the engine revs up but the boat will not speed up. Actually I expect the stern squats in the water. This indicates that you are trying to go too fast for the depth of water and waterway bed profile. In the UK on canals we can hit that limit with a narrowboat at about 2.5 mph on some canals. A further indication of over driving the boat is excess wash and possibly heavy/juddering steering.

 

 

That’s interesting Tony, I have yet to cause the slightest wash but increase in engine speed doesn’t give the increase I’d expect. What sort of horsepower would you expect for between 5-7 knots ? We’re quite bluff, though a bit more overhang than a tjalk at the bows, though the stern is quite similar. 

On 07/05/2019 at 13:25, peterboat said:

No problems I have converted my boat to electric, which for me works very well

It is a very attractive offer and good price but I think I’ll do some more research and work this through with more brain than wallet so I’ll pass this time. After the 2nd alternator is taken in to account there’s less horsepower than I’ve got in theory at the moment.