Beware- Untrained volunteers on T&M wide locks

[noddyboater]

Yes I know it’s another moan, I’ll keep it brief. Please be cautious at the wide deep locks between Shardlow and Stenson, especially if you’re single handed. As you probably know these locks can be quite dangerous if you either rush opening the paddles, or do them in the wrong sequence. 

You would expect a volunteer to know this, but the one I met yesterday  didn’t, and more worryingly I got the impression it was their regular spot. As it’s been said before, the safest place for you and your boat is definitely on the top gates with your own windlass. 

[mrsmelly]

Send em down to the oxford, anyone can do the locks for me anytime they want.

[ditchcrawler]

There is a couple of threads on Facebook about both the volockie and the fact thet one paddle is perminatly taped of with what is suspected to be an unofficial closure, I will try and find them

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Send em down to the oxford, anyone can do the locks for me anytime they want.

 

Thus writes a man who has never had a near-sinking of his boat, while others with no skin in the game open the paddles and walk off. 

 

 

 

 

[Jennifer McM]

1 hour ago, noddyboater said:

Yes I know it’s another moan, I’ll keep it brief. Please be cautious at the wide deep locks between Shardlow and Stenson, especially if you’re single handed. As you probably know these locks can be quite dangerous if you either rush opening the paddles, or do them in the wrong sequence. 

You would expect a volunteer to know this, but the one I met yesterday  didn’t, and more worryingly I got the impression it was their regular spot. As it’s been said before, the safest place for you and your boat is definitely on the top gates with your own windlass. 

For all the locks we've been through, Stenson lock give me the most horrors.

 

We came up both locks about a week ago, two lockies on Shardlow, and one on Stenson (they were bored as there wasn't many boats about). Have to say the lockies we had, we couldn't fault them. It's worrying there are inexperienced ones on those locks though - maybe have a word with CRT?

[noddyboater]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

There is a couple of threads on Facebook about both the volockie and the fact thet one paddle is perminatly taped of with what is suspected to be an unofficial closure, I will try and find them

Yes I noticed yesterday that the “Faulty” paddle now has yards of rope wound around it just incase anyone has the cheek to use it. 

It’s quite ridiculous that the boats moored below the lock (that have been there for years) now have the power through a gullible volocky to dictate how a lock is used. It’s painfully slow to empty on one paddle which is fine on a quiet winters day but not when there’s half a dozen boats in front of you. 

A minute or two with a sharp knife should sort it (rope, not volocky), if it really is faulty it won’t work anyway will it? 

[zenataomm]

One person's opinion of somebody else doesn't mean they are untrained.

[noddyboater]

4 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

One person's opinion of somebody else doesn't mean they are untrained.

The volunteer hadn’t been trained in the correct and safe method of working the lock. I know this as I was there, talking to them. With respect, I don’t think you were.

It’s nothing personal against them, help out at Fradley by all means, but not where things can go wrong quickly if you don’t know what you’re doing. 

[Victor Vectis]

1 hour ago, noddyboater said:

Yes I noticed yesterday that the “Faulty” paddle now has yards of rope wound around it just incase anyone has the cheek to use it. 

It’s quite ridiculous that the boats moored below the lock (that have been there for years) now have the power through a gullible volocky to dictate how a lock is used. It’s painfully slow to empty on one paddle which is fine on a quiet winters day but not when there’s half a dozen boats in front of you. 

A minute or two with a sharp knife should sort it (rope, not volocky), if it really is faulty it won’t work anyway will it? 

I'm guessing thats a botton paddle at Stenson being talked about here.

 

I had a full and frank discussion with a vlockie here when emptying that lock a while back.

 

His argument was that emptying the lock quickly disturbed the boats on the offside mooring below the lock.

 

I disagreed, saying something along the lines of "if they choose to moor there then they have to expect it"

 

He said I was being an inconsiderate boater.

 

I said I like to use locks efficiently.

 

We did not reach agreement!

[Jennifer McM]

1 minute ago, Victor Vectis said:

I'm guessing thats a botton paddle at Stenson being talked about here.

 

I had a full and frank discussion with a vlockie here when emptying that lock a while back.

 

His argument was that emptying the lock quickly disturbed the boats on the offside mooring below the lock.

 

I disagreed, saying something along the lines of "if they choose to moor there then they have to expect it"

 

He said I was being an inconsiderate boater.

 

I said I like to use locks efficiently.

 

We did not reach agreement!

You're right about the boats at the bottom, if they don't like the 'water surge' coming throught the lock, perhaps they are mooring in the wrong place (the locks been there quite a while).

 

At Western lock, (a few locks back) I lost control of our boat through the fierce water surge from the lock (I blamed him indoors ? ). The centre line was wrapped twice around a bollard, while I was holding the end. The water came down so fast I couldn't hold the boat and had to let go of it. The boat was under a lot of strain, even trying to manage the boat with the engine didn't help and the boat was taken sideways down the canal. I was just pleased there wasn't a boat moored at the bottom of that lock. I didn't enjoy that line of locks, and was glad when we were at the top of Swarkstone lock. 

[noddyboater]

That’s the one. It’s gone from being told not to use it to being trussed up with an Out of use sign or similar hanging from it. I did hear a rumour that the chap you met actually lives on one of the boats below. 

The problem is spreading though, a volunteer at Weston was amazed when I quickly lifted both bottom paddles and said something like “Oh, I didn’t think you’d want to do them both” 

[Neil2]

It's not good is it - there will be a lot of hire boats heading this way with inexperienced crews some of which will be operating locks for the first time.  I well remember my first canal cruising experience some 35 years ago was along this very stretch, I think Stenson lock is about five locks in and by the time we got there - in the pouring rain - we had both had enough of narrowboating.  perhaps I should have taken it as a sign..

[Victor Vectis]

54 minutes ago, Jennifer McM said:

At Western lock, (a few locks back) I lost control of our boat through the fierce water surge from the lock (I blamed him indoors ? ). The centre line was wrapped twice around a bollard, while I was holding the end. The water came down so fast I couldn't hold the boat and had to let go of it. The boat was under a lot of strain, even trying to manage the boat with the engine didn't help and the boat was taken sideways down the canal. I was just pleased there wasn't a boat moored at the bottom of that lock. I didn't enjoy that line of locks, and was glad when we were at the top of Swarkstone lock. 

I had a similar problem on the same trip that I mentioned before, it might have been at Weston Lock but I don't remember exactly.

 

I was moving a friends boat. I'd tied the boat up below the lock, put the centre line around a bollard, and went up and started to empty the lock. The surge of water pulled the boat forward and snapped the centre line. I saw what was happening and dashed back to the lock landing in time to jump onto the back (perhaps cruiser sterns have their uses after all!)

Putting the engine into 'hard astern' wasn't enough stop the boat smacking into the bridge abutment below the lock.

 

THinking about it I reckon it was probably Aston Lock.

[Jennifer McM]

Just now, Victor Vectis said:

I had a similar problem on the same trip that I mentioned before, it might have been at Weston Lock but I don't remember exactly.

 

I was moving a friends boat. I'd tied the boat up below the lock, put the centre line around a bollard, and went up and started to empty the lock. The surge of water pulled the boat forward and snapped the centre line. I saw what was happening and dashed back to the lock landing in time to jump onto the back (perhaps cruiser sterns have their uses after all!)

Putting the engine into 'hard astern' wasn't enough stop the boat smacking into the bridge abutment below the lock.

 

THinking about it I reckon it was probably Aston Lock.

Think several locks along there have the same problem. In my case, the surge of water got between the boat and the lock landing. The boat was straining at an angle, so letting go of the rope (tho' I didn't have much option) was better option than having the boat tip too far over.  All been registered to 'experience'  

[mrsmelly]

9 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Thus writes a man who has never had a near-sinking of his boat, while others with no skin in the game open the paddles and walk off. 

 

 

 

 

I havnt yet ever had any problems with any vlockie at any lock in the system, of which I have done thousands of locks. I and my wife do however always TALK in a nice manner to anyone offering assistance or otherwise at any lock so we are both singing off the same hymn sheet. We also appreciate people who give their free time to help us through locks. We find different attitudes bring differing responses in life.

[zenataomm]

5 hours ago, noddyboater said:

The volunteer hadn’t been trained in the correct and safe method of working the lock. I know this as I was there, talking to them. With respect, I don’t think you were.

It’s nothing personal against them, help out at Fradley by all means, but not where things can go wrong quickly if you don’t know what you’re doing. 

No I wasn't but I do know that identification of a training need is achieved by assessment.  You seem to have done that against your own standards, which may or may not be enough.

Lack of proficiency in a discipline does not automatically prove "un-trained"

The subject(s) might prefer to do it their way or have an attitude problem.  However another thing I do know is that following their training they are subjected to one to one supervision and assessment before being allowed to volunteer.

If as you suggest these volunteers are operating unsafely and you have identified a risk to safety then it's your responsibility to report it to C&RT.

Having a general whinge on a public forum isn't good enough and doesn't relieve you of accountability.

[MtB]

16 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I havnt yet ever had any problems with any vlockie at any lock in the system, of which I have done thousands of locks. I and my wife do however always TALK in a nice manner to anyone offering assistance or otherwise at any lock so we are both singing off the same hymn sheet. We also appreciate people who give their free time to help us through locks. We find different attitudes bring differing responses in life.

 

Ah so you have crew on the bank.... this IS the difference

 

 

[PaulD]

What is the best sequence of opening the upper paddles going up in these locks?  If only one boat in the lock I read it is first the offside ground paddle if you are on the towpath side then the towpath ground paddle. Then the gate paddles when the bow is clear?  Still difficult to hold position in the lock and it is so much easier if there are two boats in the lock. Is it worth having a line over a bollard? They seem to be in the wrong place either too far forward or too far aft.

Went through Aston today both ways. The volunteers seemed to know what they were doing (better than me anyway) and I was very grateful for their assistance.

 

 

[mrsmelly]

15 minutes ago, PaulD said:

What is the best sequence of opening the upper paddles going up in these locks?  If only one boat in the lock I read it is first the offside ground paddle if you are on the towpath side then the towpath ground paddle. Then the gate paddles when the bow is clear?  Still difficult to hold position in the lock and it is so much easier if there are two boats in the lock. Is it worth having a line over a bollard? They seem to be in the wrong place either too far forward or too far aft.

Went through Aston today both ways. The volunteers seemed to know what they were doing (better than me anyway) and I was very grateful for their assistance.

 

 

I find aston is the worst of that line of locks, whilst stenson usualy has numpty mooring at the bottom. We just crack either ground paddle until the boat settles wherever it chooses before opening the other ground paddle. I do generaly stay on the boat as I carry staff to do the actual paddle lifting bit. The main problem with those locks is the poxy gates swinging open when you are single handed but this has been addressed somewhat of late. They are pretty crap it has to be said for single narrowboats.

[dccruiser]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

I find aston is the worst of that line of locks, whilst stenson usualy has numpty mooring at the bottom. We just crack either ground paddle until the boat settles wherever it chooses before opening the other ground paddle. I do generaly stay on the boat as I carry staff to do the actual paddle lifting bit. The main problem with those locks is the poxy gates swinging open when you are single handed but this has been addressed somewhat of late. They are pretty crap it has to be said for single narrowboats.

Couldnt agree more, as a single handed boater it isnt just the double locks that need "props" where they are situated where the wind opens the bottom gates quicker than you can get from one end to the other ... usually when you are in the middle of nowhere and no other boats around, the only options being either crack a ground paddle to use the frow to hold them closed ... or as i do carry a couple of home made props made from an old barge pole.

Rick

[TheBiscuits]

 

 

Fascinated by the last few replies to this thread.

 

Don't you have handling lines (That's ropes to you heathens!) on the boat?

 

2 hours ago, PaulD said:

Is it worth having a line over a bollard?

Yes.  That is exactly why the bollards are there!

 

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

I do generaly stay on the boat as I carry staff to do the actual paddle lifting bit.

That is the problem Tim - you don't have the experience of actually working the locks, just the experience of riding up/down them while someone else is in actual control of your boat.  I never had you down as a sub before ...

 

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Ah so you have crew on the bank.... this IS the difference

 

Yep.   MrsBiscuit can single hand locks, but does not like doing so (All that climbing ladders!).  I can singlehand locks and have done hundreds.  Together it's easier for the steerer, but nothing too complicated, just faster.

 

 

 

[Philip]

11 hours ago, PaulD said:

What is the best sequence of opening the upper paddles going up in these locks?  If only one boat in the lock I read it is first the offside ground paddle if you are on the towpath side then the towpath ground paddle. Then the gate paddles when the bow is clear?  Still difficult to hold position in the lock and it is so much easier if there are two boats in the lock. Is it worth having a line over a bollard? They seem to be in the wrong place either too far forward or too far aft.

Went through Aston today both ways. The volunteers seemed to know what they were doing (better than me anyway) and I was very grateful for their assistance.

 

 

When I went through them the other week I secured the boat with rope to the bollard and then opened the gate paddles first, later the ground paddles. It is better that way with a short boat like mine, as the flow of water from the sluice won't harm the boat when well away from the top gates and what's more by opening the ground paddles later when the lock is part-filled, the currents that come from them won't be as strong. With a long boat with the bow close to the gates then I'd say doing it the opposite way is the only safe way, for obvious reasons.

 

Still get some boaters and even the occasional volunteer lock-keeper going all namby-pamby and lecturing me about the safe operation of a lock when I open the gate paddles before the ground ones - they can't seem to grasp that with a short boat the gate paddle flow doesn't come into contact with the boat, but the ground paddle currents ARE a potential problem (especially in wide locks and being GRP).

Edited May 6, 2019 by Philip

[NBDensie]

As a frequent cruiser on the Shardlow end of the T&M...

 

1) When ascending, the side paddles are best operated the other way round to the GU locks.  Open the one on the non-boat side first.  Water comes out along the side of the lock and pushes the boat against the opposite wall, at least until the lock is partially full.

 

2) When descending Weston lock we always warn any boat waiting below and open the paddles slowly.  The outflow can be ferocious.  When waiting to go up tie the bow rope to the bollard.  Dont try and hold it in place by hand.

 

 

[noddyboater]

13 hours ago, zenataomm said:

No I wasn't but I do know that identification of a training need is achieved by assessment.  You seem to have done that against your own standards, which may or may not be enough.

Lack of proficiency in a discipline does not automatically prove "un-trained"

The subject(s) might prefer to do it their way or have an attitude problem.  However another thing I do know is that following their training they are subjected to one to one supervision and assessment before being allowed to volunteer.

If as you suggest these volunteers are operating unsafely and you have identified a risk to safety then it's your responsibility to report it to C&RT.

Having a general whinge on a public forum isn't good enough and doesn't relieve you of accountability.

My original post was a warning to other boaters that may be in the area, not a general whinge. 

If you’re approaching a lock and someone appears with a life jacket and windlass, you’d expect them to know what they’re doing. 

Briefly, the conversation I had with the volunteer was as follows;

Me-Everything ok?

V-He’s shouted at me to drop the paddle 

Me-Yes, he looks a bit distressed. If you open the opposite side ground paddle instead on these locks it holds the boat against the wall nicely, and slowly, not all the way up in one go. Then do the gate paddle on that side too. If you’re not in a rush don’t bother with the paddles on the same side as the boat at all.

V-Oh, thanks I’ll try that next time. I thought on wide locks you do the boat side first and the water comes underneath and holds it?

Me-Not on these locks, but yes, on most it does. 

I hope this gives a clearer picture of what happened, I’m sure the volunteer took my advice on board and apart from maybe a broken glass or two in the unfortunate boat in the lock everything turned out fine. 

I don’t feel the need to report it to CRT, if the chap on the boat in the lock does that’s fair enough. I go boating to enjoy myself, not to stack up a list of complaints to email off to CRT at the first opportunity.

To be honest the only time  I have felt the urge to complain about an absolute pillock of a (paid) keeper, it fell on deaf ears anyway. 

[Richard T]

Not always a good idea to hold the boat on the cill when locking up in these locks. The cills have projections which can catch and hold down bow fenders. Its why we only secure ours with thin cord which will break under load. Its fine to put the bow on the top gates when clear of the cill. Its worth pointing out that the cills are between 6 and 8ft high in these locks.