Replacing batteries

[Felshampo]

My six year old AGM batteries are losing their voltage very quickly now. After charging them up using the engine they show a voltage of 13 volts. Once I start to use them the voltage drops rapidly. At 94% charge (according to the MasterVolt system) they are below 12 volts. I take this to mean they need replacing even though all the things on the boat lights, TV, fridge, inverter etc keep working. Except the central heating. 

I have a couple of questions. 

Is replacing them as simple as switching everything off including the isolation switch and then changing them over for a new set as you would in a car. Will the MasterVolt system inverter and solar panel all accept the new batteries or do I need to reset anything?

I intend to replace like for like. 

We are cc'ing at the moment so wonder if anyone can recommend where to get the replacements. There are so many different sorts of batteries I am unsure where to start. Is there a make or makes that are high quality if not the most expensive  (varta seem to be the most expensive?) The ones I have are called Marine but I cannot find them. 

Is buying them at a marina chandlers a good place or do you get ripped off that way. 

Thanks 

Jon

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Felshampo

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Can only make a few comments, not answer all your questions.

Since they have lasted six years you sound like you treated them well and the electrical and charging system is probably sound.

Disconnect the solar panels from the solar controller before disconnecting the controller from the batteries. Doing it the other way round can destroy some controllers. When reconnecting, connect batteries to controller before connecting controller to panels.

After turning off the master switch, disconnect the negative leads from the battery before disconnecting the positive leads. If you do it the other way round, accidentally touching a spanner to the hull can give sparks and even weld the spanner in place, leading to huge current flow and even exploding a battery. Put insulating tape round the spanner, except for the business end for extra safety. When reconnecting, connect the negatives last.

Replacement shouldn't affect the Mastervolt and solar controller if they are AGM again. If a different battery type, then some settings may need changing to allow different charge voltages. Others on here can advise once you know. As far as types are concerned, I've only ever used the cheapo "leisure" open lead acids, so no idea. More expensive may mean better, or it may just mean more expensive!

Chandlers can be expensive, but if you are CCing, then the most convenient. You save on delivery cost and the problem of where to deliver them too and since they are heavy then this is a considerable decrease in faff.

 

Jen

[Jennifer McM]

Last year we pulled into a marina for a couple of nights while an internet order for 4 batteries arrived. It worked out much cheaper.

[Felshampo]

42 minutes ago, Jennifer McM said:

Last year we pulled into a marina for a couple of nights while an internet order for 4 batteries arrived. It worked out much cheaper.

Where did you get them from off the Internet and by much cheaper do you mean than a chandlers? 

[Felshampo]

48 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Can only make a few comments, not answer all your questions.

Since they have lasted six years you sound like you treated them well and the electrical and charging system is probably sound.

Disconnect the solar panels from the solar controller before disconnecting the controller from the batteries. Doing it the other way round can destroy some controllers. When reconnecting, connect batteries to controller before connecting controller to panels.

After turning off the master switch, disconnect the negative leads from the battery before disconnecting the positive leads. If you do it the other way round, accidentally touching a spanner to the hull can give sparks and even weld the spanner in place, leading to huge current flow and even exploding a battery. Put insulating tape round the spanner, except for the business end for extra safety. When reconnecting, connect the negatives last.

Replacement shouldn't affect the Mastervolt and solar controller if they are AGM again. If a different battery type, then some settings may need changing to allow different charge voltages. Others on here can advise once you know. As far as types are concerned, I've only ever used the cheapo "leisure" open lead acids, so no idea. More expensive may mean better, or it may just mean more expensive!

Chandlers can be expensive, but if you are CCing, then the most convenient. You save on delivery cost and the problem of where to deliver them too and since they are heavy then this is a considerable decrease in faff.

 

Jen

Does this mean there are separate connections to the controller?  I had a look at them today and could see the main red and black cables. Is the controller connected to these? So do I disconnect the panel using the connector under the panel. Do I have to cover the panel first as I think it says on that plug to not disconnect it when the panel is charging. 

[MtB]

58 minutes ago, Jennifer McM said:

Last year we pulled into a marina for a couple of nights while an internet order for 4 batteries arrived. It worked out much cheaper.

 

Even taking into account the marina mooring fees?

 

 

[Jennifer McM]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Even taking into account the marina mooring fees?

 

 

4 x AGM 120 batteries from https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/ (supposedly to be relabelled Varta batteries - but ???) Cost £380, they were delivered FOC by Yodel, and carried a 5 year warranty.

 

Overnight mooring was £10.50 per night (we stayed 2 nights) plus £5 worth of electric.

 

We did get them installed by a electrician (recommended by the marine's manager - Grove Lock Marina on the GU, Leighton Buzzard), we also needed a few bits of electrics tidied up, and the electrician took away the dud batteries = he charged £130.

 

Our batteries died during the Beast from the East, March last year. ?

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

I got Tayna to deliver my new batteries to the services at Park Lane on the Caldon, simply by getting the postcode of the wharf cottage.

 

When the truck turned up, I asked the driver to just drop them at the water's edge so I could bring the boat up to the pallet.

 

He told me not to be daft, and dragged the pallet all the way to my boat down the gravelly towpath.  He dropped the pallet touching my boat to save me any more work than necessary.  

 

 

[blackrose]

8 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Can only make a few comments, not answer all your questions.

Since they have lasted six years you sound like you treated them well and the electrical and charging system is probably sound.

Disconnect the solar panels from the solar controller before disconnecting the controller from the batteries. Doing it the other way round can destroy some controllers. When reconnecting, connect batteries to controller before connecting controller to panels.

After turning off the master switch, disconnect the negative leads from the battery before disconnecting the positive leads. 

 

The problem with disconnecting negatives first is that you risk damaging equipment.

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by blackrose

[blackrose]

I recently replaced my domestic bank and I followed Gibbo's advice and disconnected all the positives first. Good advice from Jen to put electrical tape around the other end of the spanner. My battery box is made of ply so there wasn't really any of the hull that the spanner could touch while removing the positive connections. 

 

I tend to get confused by loads of disconnected cables and forget which cables go where. So after taking all the cable terminals off the first battery post I put a cable tie through the lot and then wrote D+1 (domestics, positive, first terminal) on a piece of masking tape and stuck it onto that set of terminals. The next set is D+2, etc.

 

I had to remove my start battery to get the domestics out of the box so the terminals were cable tied and labelled S+ and S-. The labelling might sound silly but once I'd physically got the old batteries out and put the new ones in, those cables were all over the place and the cable ties and labels meant reconnecting all the cables was a much simpler job.

 

You might want to take a picture of the top of the batteries on your phone before you start the job too.

Edited May 3, 2019 by blackrose

[Felshampo]

Thanks for all that. I will read the battery replacement tips thread before I make my next move. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

10 hours ago, Felshampo said:

Does this mean there are separate connections to the controller?  I had a look at them today and could see the main red and black cables. Is the controller connected to these? So do I disconnect the panel using the connector under the panel. Do I have to cover the panel first as I think it says on that plug to not disconnect it when the panel is charging. 

Depends how your controller is wired up. There is no one way of doing it.

Covering the panels first won't do any harm and may do some good.

[Felshampo]

9 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

The problem with disconnecting negatives first is that you risk damaging equipment.

 

Having read this thread I am now going to get an electrician to fit them. I have a MasterVolt battery monitor and a solar panel and would like the peace of mind of knowing that any cock up will be his and not mine. 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

I've picked up this thread because I am getting the impression that my leisure batteries might be on their last legs....but I'm not sure. How do you know when the leisure batteries are shot?

 

The 'symptoms' that I have at the moment is that the Vectron battery monitor shows 100% State Of Charge (SOC) at the end of a day's cruising but by the following morning the SOC has gone blank (as have the Time To Go (TTG) and Charge Expired (CE) readings) but I'm still getting the charge readings of voltage and amperage when the engine is running. There is a 'low battery' light on the inverter but that hasn't come on although it flashes when the washing machine is heating up with the engine running. The other 'symptom' is that a fuse on the Esperbacher keeps randomly blowing (I don't know if that is connected to the battery 'problem'). The batteries themselves were bought in August 2013, a bit over 6 years old so I would be unsurprised if the batteries are now 'done' but don't want to fork out on a brand spanking new set just to find the fault is in the battery monitor.

 

I've been told, 'What you need is a multimeter to check it' but I'm afraid for me that is a bit like having a compass but no map, what would I be looking for? (if anyone mentions 'tail currents' I have a condition whereby my eyes tend to glaze over). All I really want is a 'meter' that says 'Good' or 'Dud'.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Wanderer Vagabond

[Tony Brooks]

Quote:

 

"I've picked up this thread because I am getting the impression that my leisure batteries might be on their last legs....but I'm not sure. How do you know when the leisure batteries are shot?

 

The 'symptoms' that I have at the moment is that the Vectron battery monitor shows 100% State Of Charge (SOC) at the end of a day's cruising but by the following morning the SOC has gone blank (as have the Time To Go (TTG) and Charge Expired (CE) readings) but I'm still getting the charge readings of voltage and amperage when the engine is running. There is a 'low battery' light on the inverter but that hasn't come on although it flashes when the washing machine is heating up with the engine running. The other 'symptom' is that a fuse on the Esperbacher keeps randomly blowing (I don't know if that is connected to the battery 'problem'). The batteries themselves were bought in August 2013, a bit over 6 years old so I would be unsurprised if the batteries are now 'done' but don't want to fork out on a brand spanking new set just to find the fault is in the battery monitor.

 

I've been told, 'What you need is a multimeter to check it' but I'm afraid for me that is a bit like having a compass but no map, what would I be looking for? (if anyone mentions 'tail currents' I have a condition whereby my eyes tend to glaze over). All I really want is a 'meter' that says 'Good' or 'Dud'."

 

 

 

My reply:

 

 

Sorry but here we go again.

 

Yes, unless you have custom set the meter for tail current AND very regularly fully charge the batteries and recalibrate the meter will be ably assisting you to destroy your batteries, although after six years you are doing well.

 

How often do we have to warn that % of charge on Amp Hour counting monitors are a recipe for destroying batteries. Same goes for time to go etc. The ONLY 100% accurate readings are Volts, Amps, and Amp hours out.

 

You do not need a multi-meter of you have that monitor but you do need to understand and accept that "eyes glazing over" is not going to help you get optimum life from your batteries.

 

Set the meter to amps and keep charging until it reads between 1% and 2% of battery capacity in amps so for a 440 Ah bank look for sub 8 amps - around 4 would be better. Then recalibrate the meter. Recalibrate about once a week or so.

 

Say an hour after stopping the engine for the day and every day check the battery voltage on the meter. Don't do it with any electrical loads  running or the solar producing. That will give you a better idea of the % charged that those meters if they have not been properly set and very regularly calibrated. Ditto first think in the morning so you can see how well the charge is holding up overnight.

 

You need two meters. A Smartgauge to tell you when you should recharge ASAP but in any case every day is best plus your existing meter reading amps to tell you when the batteries are more or less fully charged.

 

I can get along with an ammeter and voltmeter but I have put the effort in to learn to understand what the readings mean - you already have an adequate voltmeter and ammeter.

 

Although motors normally draw more current the lower the supply voltage I suspect the difference a low voltage  but above inverter warning would not be a factor but who knows.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Charge every day if possible but at least twice a week and as soon as possible if the voltages show the charge at 50%

 

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Tony Brooks
Somethig odd happened on post a mangled my reply.

[pearley]

On 02/05/2019 at 22:42, Jennifer McM said:

 

 

We did get them installed by a electrician (recommended by the marine's manager - Grove Lock Marina on the GU, Leighton Buzzard), we also needed a few bits of electrics tidied up, and the electrician took away the dud batteries = he charged £130.

 

I know you would have needed a car but those 4 batteries would have got you around £65 at a scrappies.

[Alan de Enfield]

On 02/05/2019 at 22:42, Jennifer McM said:

and the electrician took away the dud batteries = he charged £130.

 

2 hours ago, pearley said:

I know you would have needed a car but those 4 batteries would have got you around £65 at a scrappies.

 

That's a good price :

I get £10 for 110Ah batteries

and £20 for 220Ah batteries

 

But the scrappy comes and picks them up and pays cash.

[PeterF]

Weighed 4 x 110Ah leisure and 1 x starter battery in earlier in the year, about 135kg, got 50p/kg = £67.50

Edited October 31, 2019 by PeterF

[MtB]

4 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I've picked up this thread because I am getting the impression that my leisure batteries might be on their last legs....but I'm not sure. How do you know when the leisure batteries are shot?

 

The 'symptoms' that I have at the moment is that the Vectron battery monitor shows 100% State Of Charge (SOC) at the end of a day's cruising but by the following morning the SOC has gone blank (as have the Time To Go (TTG) and Charge Expired (CE) readings) but I'm still getting the charge readings of voltage and amperage when the engine is running. There is a 'low battery' light on the inverter but that hasn't come on although it flashes when the washing machine is heating up with the engine running. The other 'symptom' is that a fuse on the Esperbacher keeps randomly blowing (I don't know if that is connected to the battery 'problem'). The batteries themselves were bought in August 2013, a bit over 6 years old so I would be unsurprised if the batteries are now 'done' but don't want to fork out on a brand spanking new set just to find the fault is in the battery monitor.

 

I've been told, 'What you need is a multimeter to check it' but I'm afraid for me that is a bit like having a compass but no map, what would I be looking for? (if anyone mentions 'tail currents' I have a condition whereby my eyes tend to glaze over). All I really want is a 'meter' that says 'Good' or 'Dud'.

 

 

As Tony says, unless you stop this 'eyes glazing over' stuff and take the trouble to learn about yer batteries you are gonna remain thrashing about in the dark.

 

About the best anyone here can say is that as six years they are probably shot but that rather depends on what exactly your have. Six years is a long time to have made el cheapos last so you must be doing something very right. Even six years for a set of Trojans with no desulphating regime in place is pretty good too I'd say.  In fact six years for ANYTHING is good given your abysmal level of understanding!! 

 

Most curious now to find out what you have that lasted six years without you understanding in quite some detail how to look after them. I only managed six MONTHS!

 

 

 

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

As Tony says, unless you stop this 'eyes glazing over' stuff and take the trouble to learn about yer batteries you are gonna remain thrashing about in the dark.

 

About the best anyone here can say is that as six years they are probably shot but that rather depends on what exactly your have. Six years is a long time to have made el cheapos last so you must be doing something very right. Even six years for a set of Trojans with no desulphating regime in place is pretty good too I'd say.  In fact six years for ANYTHING is good given your abysmal level of understanding!! 

 

Most curious now to find out what you have that lasted six years without you understanding in quite some detail how to look after them. I only managed six MONTHS!

 

 

 

The OP didnt actually say he had owned them for 6 years. He said they were 6 years old. Maybe he bought the boat recently?

The thread is 5 months old now.

[pearley]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That's a good price :

I get £10 for 110Ah batteries

and £20 for 220Ah batteries

 

But the scrappy comes and picks them up and pays cash.

Didn't think that was allowed now, cash that is.

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, pearley said:

Didn't think that was allowed now, cash that is.

Supposedly it is not - but I think that, that is so the recipient can be identified - when he is picking them up he knows where he has got them from.

[Richard10002]

On 02/05/2019 at 22:16, Felshampo said:

Does this mean there are separate connections to the controller?  I had a look at them today and could see the main red and black cables. Is the controller connected to these? So do I disconnect the panel using the connector under the panel. Do I have to cover the panel first as I think it says on that plug to not disconnect it when the panel is charging. 

After I fitted my solar panels, there seemed to be so many occasions when I wanted to turn them off, (disconnect them from the controller), I fitted a switch. I actually fitted a 50A circuit breaker and, because it is only rated to 48V, I changed my two panels from a series connection to a parallel connection:

 

https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/waterproof-switchable-surface-mounted-circuit-breakers.html

 

If I want to disconnect the panels, I just press the test button. No worrying about covering the panels with a blanket, or waiting until dark, or similar.

 

When your new batteries come, it could be worth asking the electrician to fit a similar kind of switch, but you must obviously make sure that the voltage from the panels doesnt exceed the rating of the switch.

[Richard10002]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Supposedly it is not - but I think that, that is so the recipient can be identified - when he is picking them up he knows where he has got them from.

Last time I scrapped some batteries, (2015 or so IIRC, I had to provide proof of address and identity, and they would only pay into a bank account in my name. I understood that this is the law, partly to prevent money laundering, and partly to stop you nicking some batteries, and scrapping them for cash.

 

Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrap_Metal_Dealers_Act_2013

 

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

As Tony says, unless you stop this 'eyes glazing over' stuff and take the trouble to learn about yer batteries you are gonna remain thrashing about in the dark.

 

About the best anyone here can say is that as six years they are probably shot but that rather depends on what exactly your have. Six years is a long time to have made el cheapos last so you must be doing something very right. Even six years for a set of Trojans with no desulphating regime in place is pretty good too I'd say.  In fact six years for ANYTHING is good given your abysmal level of understanding!! 

 

Most curious now to find out what you have that lasted six years without you understanding in quite some detail how to look after them. I only managed six MONTHS!

 

 

 

Haven't exactly been thrashing about in the dark, the batteries have kept the lights on for 6 years?. To be honest though I haven't a lot of interest in electrickery stuff, I keep things simple,"Does it work?", "Yes", "Don't b*gger with it then". "Is it broke?", "Yes", "Scrap it and get another one" being my general philosophy. I use a computer on a daily basis but I don't know how to code one or how to dismantle a hard drive, much the same goes for electrickery stuff for me.

 

Despite everyone saying ,"Don't take too much notice of those SOC bits on the Vecton battery monitor", that is pretty much what I have done over the past 6 years. A lot of it has been liveaboard and running the engine (often travelling) for about 3 to 4 hours and the meter says 100%, end of day's travel then. Only out of interest have I looked at the charging rate and it usually drops to about 8amps flickering around that figure for about 10 minutes before SOC jumps to 100%. I suppose to paraphrase the comic, George Burns, if I'd known the batteries were going to last 6 years I'd have taken better care of them!

 

The batteries that I have, to be honest, I didn't even know the make of until today (the guy who installed them said they were fit and forget batteries, so I did) I thought I'd have a check and see if I can get some more anywhere (if it is the batteries that are shot). I've never heard of the make before but they are 125Ah Leoch AGM's, they don't appear to make the 125's any more (or at least the supplier I looked at didn't stock them) so if I need to replace them it will have to be 130Ah's.

 

All I was really looking for was a sure fire test to be able to say,"Yup, the batteries are shot". I haven't got much faith in taking one out to a battery supplier to test because it is obvious what the answer is going to be, a bit like taking your car to Kwik Fit and ask them to check your brakes for you, the answer is going to be "Yes, they're duff, sorry what was the question?"

3 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

The OP didnt actually say he had owned them for 6 years. He said they were 6 years old. Maybe he bought the boat recently?

The thread is 5 months old now.

No, I have had them for the full 6 years since August 2013, in almost daily use. I 'pinched' the OP's thread rather than starting another thread on batteries.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Wanderer Vagabond