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StephenA

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9 hours ago, carlt said:

No it was scrapped some time in the late 80s, replaced by "TEC" (Training Enterprise Council) which itself was replaced by the Learning and Skills Council as each post 1979 government attempted to disguise mass youth unemployment with largely hopeless training schemes and, in many cases, out and out scams rather than real jobs and apprenticeships.

Thats true but without mentioning names some of the best of the recent crop of canal boat builders and restorers had their start on the kennet and then went on to build great boats. I only missed the msc and tec stuff by being finally offered a job with emi 2 years post graduation.

I hated Thatcher- her policies screwed up my generation in many ways.

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6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Occam's razor suggests neither the lock nor the boat are the problem, but the steerer who forgot he was cruising with fenders down. 

 

 

Disagree. Boat that is wider than published dimensions but has transited lock before gets stuck after it has been repaired seems to be established fact. You’re making an assumption about fenders.

 

JP

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24 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Although I made a similar point about the repair there is potentially an issue with the boat because the published width is actually 4m (13’ 1”) and the boat is quoted as 13’ 6”.

 

That leads to the question as to whether repair works should be allowed to impinge on existing dimensions so long as they remain no worse than the published dimensions or should the existing dimensions be preserved?

 

So it may be that any narrowing at this location was actually designed but in that event the right course of action should perhaps be to publish the intention to make such a change.

 

JP

Where are you getting 4m from?  The sources I see say 4.2m 

 

My view would  be that a waterway should be maintained so as to be passable by an unladen boat of the type that historically used the waterway in question. This was the standard we applied above Wallbridge Lower Lock on the Thames and Severn. It's tight, but if a Severn Trow of the requisite size does turn up it will go (and everything else will need to get out of the way!) 

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2 hours ago, BruceinSanity said:

David Blagrove in Bread upon the Waters says “the first thing I learnt about canals is that they have to be fought for.” He was talking about the K&A.

I remember fighting with him to keep Hesperus afloat one dark morning in 1984.

we loaded 20 tons off our boat on to it (in spite of telling him it would sink, he was convinced fibroceme and taking up would occur)

at 0400 am i came off our boat ( not moored alongside!!!) to check his boat.

he was already inside bailing like fury!!! I had an engine driven 2 inch pump , so at 4 am i flashed up the lister and chucked the inlet pipe into hesperus. 

We got her up and she did indeed take up, but by then most of the 20 tons was back on the bank by the pub.

Happy days.. couldnt do that now there would be moaning from all directions...

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6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes, in the absence of the facts, that is what Occam's Razor is all about. You should google it!

 

 

I did. It said the solution with the least assumptions should be favoured. Hence my response.

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17 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Where are you getting 4m from?  The sources I see say 4.2m 

 

My view would  be that a waterway should be maintained so as to be passable by an unladen boat of the type that historically used the waterway in question. This was the standard we applied above Wallbridge Lower Lock on the Thames and Severn. It's tight, but if a Severn Trow of the requisite size does turn up it will go (and everything else will need to get out of the way!) 

From the dimensions published by the navigation authority. Surely that’s the only relevant source?

 

I’ll agree with your latter point and start a campaign to return the Birmingham line of the GU to narrow beam. And does that mean the Staffs & Worcs need not be maintained deep enough for John Jackson to load Roach? It’s not a point that has a single simple answer.

Edited by Captain Pegg
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6 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

I did. It said the solution with the least assumptions should be favoured. Hence my response.

 

Does it? Looks like I should read it again myself! 

 

I thought is suggested the simplest explanation is the most likely. 

 

 

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Ok here is what Wikipedia says:

 

Occam's razor (also Ockham's razor or Ocham's razor (Latin: novacula Occami); further known as the law of parsimony (Latin: lex parsimoniae)) is the problem-solving principle that essentially states that "simpler solutions are more likely to be correct than complex ones."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

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3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Does it? Looks like I should read it again myself! 

 

I thought is suggested the simplest explanation is the most likely. 

 

 

It’s kind of both. Simplest being the one that requires least guesswork.

Edited by Captain Pegg
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1 minute ago, Captain Pegg said:

It’s kind of both. Simplest being the one that requires least guesswork.

 

I hold that the bloke forgetting to lift his fenders is a simpler explanation than CRT re-built the lock to different dimensions. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A Gridiron is simply a set (grid) of parallel bars - such as the 'grid' placed over a culvert or by-wash to stop branches being washed down - I'm sure you have seen some.

I thought the term "gridiron" refers specifically to a set of horizontal iron beams set on the river or sea bed in the inter tidal zone, that you can drop a boat onto for a quick hull clean, repair or paint job between the tides.

 

I would refer to the arrangement of bars over a culvert entrance as simply a "grid".

Edited by David Mack
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So, the pic from Facebook was posted publically by NABO and credited to Dru Maryland, so I will attempt to attach it to this reply. The boat was going down the lock, and the bottom gates are open. There is clear water visible between the boat and the lock wall, but the boat is stuck half way out of the lock. The boat is the Toggenberg, which is listed as 13ft 6in, and has apparently passed the same lock previously without issue. Conclusion: the wing wall rebuild may now be narrower than the lock. CRT implicitly blaming the boat for being wider than their "published dimension" of 4m is obfuscation and diversion, the real questions are why have their contractors rebuilt the walls significantly narrower than the lock, and why have CRT unilaterally reduced the maximum beam by at least 4.5in (and maybe as much as 7.5in)?

 

image.jpeg

  • Greenie 4
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9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

I hold that the bloke forgetting to lift his fenders is a simpler explanation than CRT re-built the lock to different dimensions. 

 

 

Go check out how and where the boat got stuck and the nature of the repairs.

 

ETA - Thanks to AndrewIC you can now see on here.

Edited by Captain Pegg
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17 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

 

6 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Go check out how and where the boat got stuck and the nature of the repairs.

Stuff moves around at locks, look at napton one year nothing sticks the next boats,  that have been through many times do. We have taken our boat up the welsh cut but would not try now. Its part of having a historic boat for us. If we pushed that boundary and blocked the cut it would inconvienience others so.

im not blaming the boatowner please note theres no evidence to do that, im just saying the dimensions are a movable issue and crt cannot keep up

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11 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

 

Stuff moves around at locks, look at napton one year nothing sticks the next boats,  that have been through many times do. We have taken our boat up the welsh cut but would not try now. Its part of having a historic boat for us. If we pushed that boundary and blocked the cut it would inconvienience others so.

im not blaming the boatowner please note theres no evidence to do that, im just saying the dimensions are a movable issue and crt cannot keep up

Agreed but we can’t lose sight of the fact that the navigational status of the UK’s inland waterways is upheld by significant amounts of public money. As users we should be grateful for that but from a taxpayers perspective the use of that money necessitates that reasonable opportunity to navigate inland waterways is afforded to any member of the public who wishes to take advantage of the facility. That’s a long way short of demanding a right for passage.

 

Natural movement is one thing but critical dimensions shouldn’t move adversely as a result of repair that ultimately is intended to preserve navigation (if that’s what has happened). It seems a lot of people aren’t aware of the actual published dimensions for the K&A so it would be interesting to know if and how they have changed over time.

 

JP

Edited by Captain Pegg
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41 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

From the dimensions published by the navigation authority. Surely that’s the only relevant source?

 

I’ll agree with your latter point and start a campaign to return the Birmingham line of the GU to narrow beam. And does that mean the Staffs & Worcs need not be maintained deep enough for John Jackson to load Roach? It’s not a point that has a single simple answer.

I didn't expect this of you, but historic doesn't mean 19th century and you know it, it could equally mean mid 20th century or, on the Aire and Calder  early 21st. That said the northern GU was generally navigated by pairs of narrow boats and these craft are the most appropriate on it. There is no need to deliberately restrict the beam (as was done in the 19th century on the wide bit of the Chesterfield) and the locks should remain wide enough for a pair of boats.

 

The standard applied on the Cotswolds Canals (by me) was a stated minimum in extremis. There are usually good reasons to provide well above the minimum.

 

In this case CRT are failing, a 13 foot 6 boat should get through. We have no good reason to expect a GU town class can get to Llangollen though, historically they were big narrow boats and they didn't trade that way.

Edited by magpie patrick
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30 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Go check out how and where the boat got stuck and the nature of the repairs.

 

ETA - Thanks to AndrewIC you can now see on here.

 

 

So, assuming you're right and the lock wall is built in the wrong place and it isn't a fender stuck down the side we can't see, we appear to have a case of unstoppable force meets immovable object. 

 

Are CRT going to demolish the wall and re-build it so an oversized boat can fit? Or is The TOGGENBERG going to have to find another waterway to cruise?

 

CRT changing the published max dimension of the canal seems the simpler solution, and the one I predict CRT will go for.  

 

 

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

We don't want that ugly thing 'up norf'.

Cut it up and take it away.

 

When aircraft look as bad as that they are called BUFF's

 

If you think The TOGGENBERG is ugly, you should see some of the real abominations cruising about on the K&A!

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2 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

I didn't expect this of you, but historic doesn't mean 19th century and you know it, it could equally mean mid 20th century or, on the Aire and Calder  early 21st. That said the northern GU was generally navigated by pairs of narrow boats and these craft are the most appropriate on it. There is no need to deliberately restrict the beam (as was done in the 19th century on the wide bit of the Chesterfield) and the locks should remain wide enough for a pair of boats.

 

The standard applied on the Cotswolds Canals (by me) was a stated minimum in extremis. There are usually good reasons to provide well above the minimum.

 

In this case CRT are failing, a 13 foot 6 boat should get through. We have no good reason to expect a GU town class can get to Llangollen though, historically they were big narrow boats and they didn't trade that way.

Sorry to disappoint you ? I was actually trying to make the same point i.e. historic is a very arbitrary term. I think the approach to the Cotswold Canal is realistic but I think we should mostly deal with the here and now and the future because thankfully we have a living and breathing asset that needs to fulfil a purpose for its future survival. So if there’s a demand for getting a large GU boat to Llangollen and it could be achieved by a strategy that targets a small number of pinch points as and when they come up for repair or replacement without change to the fundamental heritage aspects of the infrastructure concerned then to me that would be good asset management plan.  The fact it has no basis in history isn’t particularly relevant in my view.

 

JP

 

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