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Universal credit for continous cruising licence

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10 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Apart from the already mentioned problem of 'freedom of movement' there's another issue in Britain that makes it a non starter. Currently, the need of people to have tax payer's money is often perceived based on which group they fall into. The group 'families with children' is particularly well blessed with handouts. The principle of UBI is that a single payment to everyone is made regardless of circumstances. Just imagine if those with large families, some of whom receive close to 2 minimum wages in handouts had their payments cut, and a person without children got the same payment.

 

It would never be allowed to happen. More likely is UBI plus the existing benefits paid to the selected favoured groups. That would defeat one of UBI's major advantages; simplicity. 

so basically you already have something better than UBI and a VAT tax and america is way behind the curve?

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1 hour ago, cksantos85 said:

so basically you already have something better than UBI and a VAT tax and america is way behind the curve?

I don't know much about the benefits system in America but the one in Britain is very established, and highly developed. It's also very expensive, around £130 billion a year, that equates to around £2,000 per head of population. UBI is being spoken about here in progressive terms, despite or perhaps because of, its simplicity.

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11 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

so basically you already have something better than UBI and a VAT tax and america is way behind the curve?

what problem does UBI solve, that makes it so attractive (other than being a catch phrase of a specific american president candidate)?

Edited by restlessnomad

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38 minutes ago, restlessnomad said:

what problem does UBI solve, that makes it so attractive (other than being a catch phrase of a specific american president candidate)?

I didnt realize you have a 2000$ per head welfare system already. it would do nothing for you but simplify the system which may not be ideal. In the US its very hard to get and keep welfare without staying poor. so it keeps people from being successful. 

 

10 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I don't know much about the benefits system in America but the one in Britain is very established, and highly developed. It's also very expensive, around £130 billion a year, that equates to around £2,000 per head of population. UBI is being spoken about here in progressive terms, despite or perhaps because of, its simplicity.

Our welfare benefits are state by state but with federal funding. Except for disabled and old people who get social security. UBI here is a bandaid on a system so broken homeless people eat garbage in the worlds most wealthy country its a shame. Sounds like you guys are ahead of the curve. The simplicity of UBi is one of its strangths but also a weakness. Every politician should have to switch countries to learn more once in a while. 

 

Edited by cksantos85

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14 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

The benefits like they are pretty hard to get and very complicated. Seems like maybe 2k for everyone might be a nonstarter for those who already have benefits. I dont see how you would ever get off these once you are on. The incentive to use benefits instead of working on wealth growth is huge. 

 

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6 minutes ago, cksantos85 said:

Seems like maybe 2k for everyone might be a nonstarter for those who already have benefits.

I think you might have misinterpreted what TWC meant when he talked about £2k per head. People aren't given £2k each that's what it costs every person in taxes to cover the costs of the paying the benefits to the people who need them. How things work in America and how they work here seem to be very different. 

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11 minutes ago, cksantos85 said:

The benefits like they are pretty hard to get and very complicated. Seems like maybe 2k for everyone might be a nonstarter for those who already have benefits. I dont see how you would ever get off these once you are on. The incentive to use benefits instead of working on wealth growth is huge. 

 

I feel you do not understand what the £2000 per head represents, it is what it costs everybody in the country to support the benefits system, NOT a minimum income level.

 

Bod

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29 minutes ago, cksantos85 said:

I didnt realize you have a 2000$ per head welfare system already. it would do nothing for you but simplify the system which may not be ideal. In the US its very hard to get and keep welfare without staying poor. so it keeps people from being successful. 

 

Our welfare benefits are state by state but with federal funding. Except for disabled and old people who get social security. UBI here is a bandaid on a system so broken homeless people eat garbage in the worlds most wealthy country its a shame. Sounds like you guys are ahead of the curve. The simplicity of UBi is one of its strangths but also a weakness. Every politician should have to switch countries to learn more once in a while. 

 

the £2000 is not universal but only to people who need it. The benefit system is supposed to give a safety net, I see it as a social contract, as a functioning member of society, if I am earning money, I would agree to part with some of it so that small percentage of people who have nothing, don't fall through cracks.

Its not supposed to bring equality or anything, if tomorrow I become infirm for some reason, I am sure I would not die due to lack of money.(and I dont need to create war chest for that).

The welfare system has been changed by recent govt to make it less attractive(they had to balance the books due to high borrowing anyway, so needed to cut spending)

I am pretty sure most people on benefit will jump at chance of getting a decent paid job, although sadly the media has vilified them in UK as freeloader of some kind.

I dont think its unique to UK, its similar in many european coutries.

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24 minutes ago, restlessnomad said:

the £2000 is not universal but only to people who need it.

I know that.

26 minutes ago, Bod said:

I feel you do not understand what the £2000 per head represents, it is what it costs everybody in the country to support the benefits system, NOT a minimum income level.

 

Bod

I understood that. I am musing what would be better 2000 in your hand or nebulous funds to a safety net where 50% is admin cost

 

31 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

I think you might have misinterpreted what TWC meant when he talked about £2k per head. People aren't given £2k each that's what it costs every person in taxes to cover the costs of the paying the benefits to the people who need them. How things work in America and how they work here seem to be very different. 

You guys think i misunderstand the 2000 comment. I understand the system. I just spent an hour reasearching the website. The welfare system here and in america are very similar from what i read. 

 

 

2000 per head is amortized cost got it. I understood that the entire time. 

Edited by cksantos85

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Most folk believe, the money comes from the Government.

But where does any Government get it's money from?

 

Bod

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7 minutes ago, Bod said:

Where does the £2000 actually come from?

 

Bod

 

 See post 27.

 

The benefits system costs £130bn a year, and the pulation of the UK is 65m approx, which works out at a cost of approx £2,000 per head to every man, woman and child in the UK.

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1 hour ago, cksantos85 said:

I just spent an hour reasearching the website. 

One hours research is totally inadequate to understand our welfare system!

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30 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

One LIFETIME is totally inadequate to understand our welfare system!!

 

 

 

ok theres alot of truth here. but on the surface it seems alot like Americas just better organized and better funded. Dont you have a 20% VAT plus income tax?

 

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 See post 27.

 

The benefits system costs £130bn a year, and the pulation of the UK is 65m approx, which works out at a cost of approx £2,000 per head to every man, woman and child in the UK.

Does anyone know what the admin cost is in that hypothetical 2000, i know in america it can be as much as 2/3 but 50% is normal. I bet if they cut everyone a strait check it would be better for the economy and everyone. I guess thats the appeal of a UBI. Implementation of a UBI could end up worse than what either country has already if its done wrong tho. 

 

43 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

One hours research is totally inadequate to understand our welfare system!

Another well made arguement in favor of a UBI lol

 

Edited by cksantos85

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28 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Is that some sort of new taxi service?

United Business Institutes - Brussels  Luxembourg  Shanghai  Middlesex

 

Or a French video games company. 

 

Or a bank in India. 

 

Or at what place?   

 

 

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10 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

ok theres alot of truth here. but on the surface it seems alot like Americas just better organized and better funded. Dont you have a 20% VAT plus income tax?

 

Does anyone know what the admin cost is in that hypothetical 2000, i know in america it can be as much as 2/3 but 50% is normal. I bet if they cut everyone a strait check it would be better for the economy and everyone. I guess thats the appeal of a UBI. Implementation of a UBI could end up worse than what either country has already if its done wrong tho. 

 

Another well made arguement in favor of a UBI lol

 

Our VAT is 20%. Applies to most purchases but not the likes of most foods, and childrens clothes. Income tax starts at 20% with the first £12,500 (I think) free. Beyond £50,000 (I think) income tax rises to 40%. It would be interesting to hear the American equivalents.

 

Some people, notably families with children receive up to £20,000 a year in benefits, I believe it's more than this in London. A large proportion of the population ears the minimum wage, £13,000 or so. I'm not sure how those in receipt of large levels of benefits would feel about having them cut by perhaps 80% in order that they receive the same as everyone else. It's worth noting that those in receipt of high levels of benefits are very strongly supported in Britain, politically.

 

I think it's fair to conclude that UBI, as the only available benefit, could never work in Britain. It could work as an additional new benefit, or perhaps that and replace one or two existing benefits but this would defeat the main argument for the system: savings because of simplicity. Adding it as a new benefit would be very costly and force higher taxes. Political parties are never elected in Britain, if they promise higher taxes.   

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4 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

Our VAT is 20%. Applies to most purchases but not the likes of most foods, and childrens clothes. Income tax starts at 20% with the first £12,500 (I think) free. Beyond £50,000 (I think) income tax rises to 40%. It would be interesting to hear the American equivalents.

 We don't have a VAT but we do have Sales Tax which applies to most everything you buy. It will vary becauses local Goverments (city, county, state) collect different amounts. But say 6% is a decent average.

 

Quick Google Search for Income Tax found this.

Tax Rate Taxable Income Bracket Owed
10% $0 to $9,525 10% of taxable income
12% $9,526 to $38,700 $952.50 plus 12% of the amount over $9,525
22% $38,701 to $82,500 $4,453.50 plus 22% of the amount over $38,700
24% $82,501 to $157,500 $14,089.50 plus 24% of the amount over $82,500

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17 hours ago, Bod said:

Most folk believe, the money comes from the Government.

But where does any Government get it's money from?

 

Bod

Well a fair chunk of it seems to come out of my wages every month.

 

 

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Simplifying a system like benefits that requires strict control may not be a good idea even though it sounds good, you might end up making it wide open to massive abuse which will bankrupt the system. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, CompairHolman said:

Simplifying a system like benefits that requires strict control may not be a good idea even though it sounds good, you might end up making it wide open to massive abuse which will bankrupt the system. 

 

 

How do you abuse a system where everyone gets cut a check the exact same amount....

 

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3 hours ago, cksantos85 said:

How do you abuse a system where everyone gets cut a check the exact same amount....

 

Britain, being a member of the EU, must offer the same benefits to all arriving EU citizens as it does British citizens. There are several hundred million EU citizens. If the U.K. set the UBI at £5,000 p.a. this would roughly equate to the average weekly wage in over half of EU countries.

 

While not a legal abuse, the arriving flood following an introduction of UBI would represent a moral abuse, create an impossible strain on public services and ultimately, bankrupt the country.

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