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Mooring Construction


dmr

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1 hour ago, dmr said:

Using dredgings to create pond/habitat would be the ideal.

Have you never seen Godzilla?

 

Radioactive sludge and an irritated newt could cause the destruction of Todmorden!

 

More seriously, where are you looking? I may know contractors in the area.  PM is fine if you want to keep it offline.

 

If you speak to Alan Oliver, ask him if he has any archive photos of Achilles, because I would like some as a present for the current owner. 

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13 hours ago, dmr said:

Will probably need to drive in posts from the water as land access is difficult,

 

 

14 hours ago, dmr said:

CRT sometimes park their digger on site, its there now, it would be great to offer the driver a little roll of £20 notes and get it done over a weekend but I don't think the world works like that anymore.

 

either there is land access or there is not. 

an excavator can easily be used to drive posts into the ground. 

are you perhaps over-thinking this?

 

even if CRT won't allow their machine to be used, it wouldn't cost a fortune to hire in a digger for a day, with minimal mobilisation costs.

 

 

Edited by Murflynn
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12 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

it wouldn't cost a fortune to hire in a digger for a day, with minimal mobilisation costs.

A medium sized 13-Tonne 360 excavator/digger (self drive) will cost about £250 per day + delivery + VAT

You may need to provide a 'ticket' as proof of competence.

 

A 20 tonne 360 machine with a driver and supplied 'wet' (all fuel provided) will be around £50 per hour + delivery + VAT

 

I have a 3-tonne machine and its great for digging 'small holes', its reach is limited - it can only reach about 6 foot in front of itself and it will only dig down to about 6 feet if the hole is right in front of the machine (so you are virtually digging under the tracks) Imagine an 'arc' and that will give you an ide of the reach / depth available.

The 3 tonne machine will just about push 3" diameter fence posts into hard ground but would not push in anything bigger.

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9 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Have you never seen Godzilla?

 

Radioactive sludge and an irritated newt could cause the destruction of Todmorden!

 

More seriously, where are you looking? I may know contractors in the area.  PM is fine if you want to keep it offline.

 

If you speak to Alan Oliver, ask him if he has any archive photos of Achilles, because I would like some as a present for the current owner. 

I suspect the silt is clean, but also expect we will have to pay for a test. Its not like Brum where a slick of black bubbling oil appears everytime you push the longshaft in.

There are already some chemicals in Tod but these mostly originate from the Golden Lion customers.

Will PM you a bit later.

 

..............Dave

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A medium sized 13-Tonne 360 excavator/digger (self drive) will cost about £250 per day + delivery + VAT

You may need to provide a 'ticket' as proof of competence.

 

A 20 tonne 360 machine with a driver and supplied 'wet' (all fuel provided) will be around £50 per hour + delivery + VAT

 

I have a 3-tonne machine and its great for digging 'small holes', its reach is limited - it can only reach about 6 foot in front of itself and it will only dig down to about 6 feet if the hole is right in front of the machine (so you are virtually digging under the tracks) Imagine an 'arc' and that will give you an ide of the reach / depth available.

The 3 tonne machine will just about push 3" diameter fence posts into hard ground but would not push in anything bigger.

yeah, you need a proper machine, not a toy.

a long reach machine commonly used for cleaning ditches and Fenland drains could do the job at a distance of perhaps 10metres.

 

as noted elsewhere, the main issue is whether the canal has a clay lining at this point, but presumably CRT has considered this when giving permission.

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2 hours ago, bigray said:

If there are any local canal groups/trusts that aren't a million miles away they may be able to assist for a suitable donation.

I did wonder, as a last resort, if we could temp waterway recovery group to do this, they could even build a proper stone wharf, they're good at that sort of thing, and we could provide a fine camp with food cooked over the camp fire every night.

 

...............Dave

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46 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

yeah, you need a proper machine, not a toy.

a long reach machine commonly used for cleaning ditches and Fenland drains could do the job at a distance of perhaps 10metres.

 

as noted elsewhere, the main issue is whether the canal has a clay lining at this point, but presumably CRT has considered this when giving permission.

We have thought about this, buy a digger, drain the pound, drive digger along canal bed (hope it don't get stuck) and do a big DIY job. We then hope that CRT roll over and don't withdraw mooring permission. Its been done before.

There is just a chance that CRT will undo our work using their most expensive contractor and sue us, so rather than enjoying boating we will spend the next couple of years and all our savings in a huge legal battle.

More seriously, when people have dug their own moorings I think they have argued that the canal has spread over the years and they are digging on their own land.

 

CRT have a lot of stuff on the www about moorings and construction, if you have several hours to spare its very very interesting, it even covers bridge design!

 

Initial application fee covers stuff like closeness to locks and bridges, existing density of moorings in the area, and a justification to over-ride the presumption of no new on-line moorings. After this its environmental surveys (water voles), possibly planning consent, and a construction method application (much bigger fee). I suspect its only at this stage that the canal bed might be considered, and this might involve additional fees. Then its possibly testing for contamination and safe working methods etc etc.

Selecting the right size digger to knock posts in is not the biggest part of this project :)

 

................Dave

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4 hours ago, dmr said:

We have thought about this, buy a digger, drain the pound, drive digger along canal bed (hope it don't get stuck) and do a big DIY job. We then hope that CRT roll over and don't withdraw mooring permission. Its been done before.

There is just a chance that CRT will undo our work using their most expensive contractor and sue us, so rather than enjoying boating we will spend the next couple of years and all our savings in a huge legal battle.

More seriously, when people have dug their own moorings I think they have argued that the canal has spread over the years and they are digging on their own land.

 

CRT have a lot of stuff on the www about moorings and construction, if you have several hours to spare its very very interesting, it even covers bridge design!

 

Initial application fee covers stuff like closeness to locks and bridges, existing density of moorings in the area, and a justification to over-ride the presumption of no new on-line moorings. After this its environmental surveys (water voles), possibly planning consent, and a construction method application (much bigger fee). I suspect its only at this stage that the canal bed might be considered, and this might involve additional fees. Then its possibly testing for contamination and safe working methods etc etc.

Selecting the right size digger to knock posts in is not the biggest part of this project :)

 

................Dave

no, I was suggesting hiring an excavator from a professional company, having it delivered to your land (the 'site' where CRT's digger is reputedly sitting, and doing all the work from dry land.    Hopefully there should be no need to dig the bottom of the canal, just to clean out silt that has accumulated over the past many decades.  

 

your subsequent discussion about environmental licensing to do the work was not part of your OP.  It seemed reasonable to assume you already had that covered.

 

more than 40 years ago I spent 3 years working for Dredging and Construction out of King's Lynn.  We did work on the banks of the Severn and the Humber, among other things.  Thank god we didn't have all the environmental rules to comply with in those days.

Edited by Murflynn
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Canal offsides were usually dug quite shallow. lThe adjacent land is quite a steep slope so a land based digger is not really viable unless we reprofile the land, and this might give other issues, I am expecting to have to work from the water. The CRT digger is parked at the top of the hill, a hundred yards away, it was a light hearted comment about slipping CRT a roll of banknotes :). I suspect the digging will be removal of silt and a bit of canal bed so we need to confirm this is viable, this is a potentially project killer.

 

Everything is about doing things in the right order to minimise potential financial loss. First we got outline permission from CRT (a smallish cost but the biggest unknown). Next we need to find a contractor and get an estimate for the digging, if this is too expensive then the project stops. If this is ok then we do the water vole and other surveys as there is a very good chance these will be ok. Then we do the detailed construction submission to CRT. This can be moderately costly so only done if we are quite confident of success. There is an element of chicken and egg which I am trying to optimise.

 

................Dave

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Before I bought my canalside house, I had to see if CRT would allow me to develop the mooring, as I had no intentional of purchasing it without being able to have an end of garden mooring.

 

Eventually they gave permission and I was able to proceed with the purchase.

 

During negotiations with CRT the local moorings manager said to me that if dredging needed to be done, it would have to be by a CRT approved contractor and it would cost me "at least £6,000". Fortunately the water was (just) deep enough not to need dredging.

 

Might be worth talking to the local CRT mooring manager to see if they can recommend a contractor.

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7 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Before I bought my canalside house, I had to see if CRT would allow me to develop the mooring, as I had no intentional of purchasing it without being able to have an end of garden mooring.

 

Eventually they gave permission and I was able to proceed with the purchase.

 

During negotiations with CRT the local moorings manager said to me that if dredging needed to be done, it would have to be by a CRT approved contractor and it would cost me "at least £6,000". Fortunately the water was (just) deep enough not to need dredging.

 

Might be worth talking to the local CRT mooring manager to see if they can recommend a contractor.

Yup, thats the sort of money that is needed for dredging, in fact I would be delighted if we could do it for that. CRT are sort of helpful but in these days of competitive tendering and transparency they can not give recommendations, but can give a list of people they know of. Trouble is CRT work with the big boys and the big boys are not geared up for little jobs, but I suspect the little people are not always experienced at working to CRT procedures. Its a pain for us but I can see that CRT are trying hard to protect their infrastructure from amateur diggers.

 

...............Dave

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40 minutes ago, cuthound said:

During negotiations with CRT the local moorings manager said to me that if dredging needed to be done, it would have to be by a CRT approved contractor and it would cost me "at least £6,000". Fortunately the water was (just) deep enough not to need dredging.

What would have stopped you from getting in with waders and doing it laboriously by hand?

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5 minutes ago, WotEver said:

What would have stopped you from getting in with waders and doing it laboriously by hand?

 

Laziness and somewhere to dispose of the dredgings! ?

 

Seriously I did don waders and remove a few bricks that the boat was grounding on.

 

Bit worried this year that the level is already 150mm down. Last August I couldn't get the stern within a metre of the bank.

 

Hopefully we will be some serious rain (preferably only during the hours of darkness) before the summer really starts.

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if, as seems likely, dredging of any kind is too problematic, and if there is plenty of width in the canal at that point, wouldn't you be better just driving in 2 substantial posts  slightly away from the bank, and arranging a boarding platform of some sort, supported by a cross bearer between the posts and landing on the bank?  would CRT allow that, given that the shallows could not be considered part of the 'navigation'.

 

I assume the desired end result is to be able to moor your boat up securely and be able to get aboard as needed, rather than creating a hard landscape feature.

Edited by Murflynn
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40 minutes ago, WotEver said:

What would have stopped you from getting in with waders and doing it laboriously by hand?

I wouldn't discount this for the OP, get some mates over, ropes, buckets etc. and plan a bonfire BBQ evening.

I've done some serious soil moving with well organised chain gangs

 

How about a large slurry pump for an off the wall suggestion.

Edited by tree monkey
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Have you tried contacting your local Machinery Ring - Ring the Ring and all that. 

 

I know these are more agricultural based but they are still contractors and most have experience in quite unusual areas. I don't know where your mooring is going to be so I can't suggest a specific Ring that's close to you, but they are often pretty diverse so might be worth calling (I just can't make another ring pun) just to see what options are available. 

 

They don't just deal with combines and crop sprayers, they can also put you in touch with people who have smaller machines / quad bikes (with trailers) / skid steers / mini diggers etc, and tractormen are quite good at dunting in posts. Our local Ring is incredibly diverse in their options and could probbly provide a lot of what you're looking for, but they will vary from area to area depending on need. 

 

I don't know what's a useful suggestion with out seeing your land so I'm just throwing stuff out there.

 

This link will take you to the main Rings in England so you can find the one that covers your area. 

http://www.machineryrings.org.uk/rings/

 

 

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What about taking a big deep boat in as close as you can, "to measure the depth", you might need bursts of speed on the prop in case you get stuck. It might disperse the silt accidentally. 

Curious where your land is, no doubt I will pass it one day. 

Plastic wood - manufactured in Nelson, https://www.kedel.co.uk/, I bought some 5x2 to replace bilge keels on a Dawncraft. 

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2 hours ago, Jim Riley said:

Plastic wood - manufactured in Nelson, https://www.kedel.co.uk/,

Talk to @Dr Bob about recycled plastic ‘wood’.

 

Kedel’s datasheet doesn’t state what type of plastic it’s made from. It must be the right kind of polyethylene (if it is polyethylene, they don’t say). Or perhaps it’s PVC, which would be better, but again they don’t say. They also don’t say how much UV stabiliser they use.

 

I only know this from an exchange of PMs with Dr Bob a couple of years back and as a result of his advice I decided to use real wood for a new decking I was installing at home. 

 

The concept of recycled plastic ‘wood’ is great, but the implementation by the manufacturer must be 100% right if you want it to last outdoors for more than a handful of years. 

  • Greenie 1
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1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Talk to @Dr Bob about recycled plastic ‘wood’.

 

Kedel’s datasheet doesn’t state what type of plastic it’s made from. It must be the right kind of polyethylene (if it is polyethylene, they don’t say). Or perhaps it’s PVC, which would be better, but again they don’t say. They also don’t say how much UV stabiliser they use.

 

I only know this from an exchange of PMs with Dr Bob a couple of years back and as a result of his advice I decided to use real wood for a new decking I was installing at home. 

 

The concept of recycled plastic ‘wood’ is great, but the implementation by the manufacturer must be 100% right if you want it to last outdoors for more than a handful of years. 

Spot on Tony.

 

This is a big subject that a quick forum post cant get into enough detail. They dont say what recycle polymer they use but to replace structural wood it would have to be HDPE (high density polyethylene). The do talk about cd cases which is high impact polystyrene (HIPS) which would not work to replace sturctural wood.

For HDPE, BP used to make 50 grades -some which lasts a few weeks (milk bottle grade) to underground gas pipes which can last 50 years +. Guess what, the biggest recycle stream is milk bottles. That contains no UV stabiliser. You have to find out what polymer they are using as you cant just get used polymer and use it to replace structural wood.

In the mid 2000's, we did tech support for a big UK wood plastic composite maker. They didnt follow our advice. They use milk bottles as the recycle source. I took some of their composite boards and used pieces some on my lumpy water boat which then spent 3 years in the Med. Those bits of wood had degraded to wood flour in 3 years. A 50 years life????????? No way. Some companies do make good composite board. More dont.

I think PVC is a better polymer but mainly only used in thin sections.

Edited by Dr Bob
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13 hours ago, WotEver said:

Talk to @Dr Bob about recycled plastic ‘wood’.

 

Kedel’s datasheet doesn’t state what type of plastic it’s made from. It must be the right kind of polyethylene (if it is polyethylene, they don’t say). Or perhaps it’s PVC, which would be better, but again they don’t say. They also don’t say how much UV stabiliser they use.

 

I only know this from an exchange of PMs with Dr Bob a couple of years back and as a result of his advice I decided to use real wood for a new decking I was installing at home. 

 

The concept of recycled plastic ‘wood’ is great, but the implementation by the manufacturer must be 100% right if you want it to last outdoors for more than a handful of years. 

All around here there is wood that has lasted 200+ years, its called oak trees and they absorb carbon from the air instead of polluting the planet.

Why try to substitute oil for wood?

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5 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

All around here there is wood that has lasted 200+ years, its called oak trees and they absorb carbon from the air instead of polluting the planet.

Why try to substitute oil for wood?

 

But oil has been around even longer :)

I'm quite impressed with some of the recycled plastic signposts that people like the National Trust are using, they look quite pleasing. There are loads of raised herb beds near to where I am moored and they are done in plastic and also look ok. This is all textured black stuff, its not like the nasty smooth green stuff that some garden centre pots are made of

Recycled plastic is just too expensive, and if I paid those prices and it turned out not to be good stuff, as suggested by Dr Bob, then I would not be happy,

I assume that when we start using less plastic then the price of the recycled stuff can only go up.

Selecting post material is a long way down the list of hurdles to be overcome.

 

On another subject, my locker lids are made of plywood with an aluminum skin and one of these needs replacing, damp got into the ply edge. I looked at using recycled plastic for this as it looked to have major advantages, then I read the detailed spec and saw the figures for thermal expansion!!!!!

 

...............Dave

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13 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

All around here there is wood that has lasted 200+ years, its called oak trees and they absorb carbon from the air instead of polluting the planet.

Why try to substitute oil for wood?

It's also got flexural and tensile strength and modulus far far higher than wood plastic composite and doesn't suffer from creep or stress cracking. Plastic used in structural applications like this is not a good idea. Now, thermoset composites such as epoxy/ polyester are a different matter.

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9 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

I'm quite impressed with some of the recycled plastic signposts that people like the National Trust are using, they look quite pleasing. There are loads of raised herb beds near to where I am moored and they are done in plastic and also look ok. This is all textured black stuff, its not like the nasty smooth green stuff that some garden centre pots are made of

 

 

...............Dave

I think these are good examples of where it can be used well. Functional rather than structural. They do need to be made properly though and if outdoors, use enough UV stabilizer. It is very easy to set up an extrusion line and stick any old recycle plastic in with no stabiliser and say it will last 50 years. A whole string of companies have done that in the last 15 years and failed. The good companies who make good product are still going. 

You will notice that Dulux are selling some of their paint in grey plastic cans. These are recycle PE or PP (can't remember which) ....but no wood.....but the company making them is doing it properly by sourcing the right recycle stream and formulating the moulding  process to produce good quality products. Recycle plastic is a very good idea in the right hands.

What you won't notice is that most of the European car manufacturers are using recycled PP extensively for floor pans, parcel shelves etc etc. Even Beamers and Mercs. Lots of it being used for sensible applications. There is currently a huge demand for recycled PP to make these products.

 

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