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Running Engines in Gear


Mike Adams

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10 minutes ago, bizzard said:

I doubt that there's much need for modern boat owners to need run the engine in gear whilst moored, what with normouse battery banks to charge, huge alternators and inverters and often Travel powers running to power all the big Gizmo's onboard which very likely are all loading the engine down more than that it being in gear or traveling along with the prop going around anyway.

 

 

Perfectly true but lots of boaters still charge their batts with engine in gear. When challenged about it they all cite bore glazing as the justification, even though it is borrucks.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, howardang said:

If you thought I was trying to be unpleasant I appologise because that certainly wasn't the intention. Rather, I was reacting in what I had hoped was a mild bantering tone to what I thought was an equally mildly condescending comment. Sorry that you took it seriously but I assumed by reading some of your posts to others that you liked the occasional banter, however I was obviously wrong and I regret that you took it the way you did.

 

Howard

 

 

 

In which case apology accepted, and my sincere apology offered for misunderstanding. 

 

Shall we start again?!

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Perfectly true but lots of boaters still charge their batts with engine in gear. When challenged about it they all cite bore glazing as the justification, even though it is borrucks.

 

 

And why many boats have the engine idle speed increased from the recomended so the engine doesn't stall when they do shove it into gear with all the electrical loads on it. I've have on request done it on many boaters engines over the last few years, and then when the batteries are fully charged with non or very little electrical Gizmo loads on the engine they wonder why their boat won't go nice and slow anymore and is bombing along on idle at something like 800-1000 rpm with everyone shouting ''slow down at them.  The boats now need a normus stand alone on demand diesel generator, like a ship. Solar panels help a lot ''when the suns out'' but folk are taking advantage of that and getting more and more electrical junk to try and use. So the huge on demand generator will eventually be the only solution, mounted upon a stout pontoon and towed along behind by a massiffl Anaconda thick electrical cable,  because the things too big to install in the boat. And then probably towing another 5,000 gallon fuel bowser pontoon behind the generators one to keep its thirst slaked.  This is the situation that its coming to.  A bit like computer control of transport now, planes crashing for example,''check out the new Boeing 737 Max 8'' its quite frightening what's going on in the aviation world, rolling planes out like sausages,  involving fierce competition and putting terrible greed and corruption above safety.    The so called experts in the aviation computer and software field are now calling airplane disasters ''Automation surprise''.when aircraft perform funny unexpected manouvers when on auto pilot and when even under manual control as on the MAX8 which are all grounded now awaiting Boeing to play about with the computer software which has to be checked out when completed as safe by more or less every aviation authority on earth before they're allowed to fly again with fare paying passengers.

 

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6 hours ago, bizzard said:

And why many boats have the engine idle speed increased from the recomended so the engine doesn't stall when they do shove it into gear with all the electrical loads on it. I've have on request done it on many boaters engines over the last few years, and then when the batteries are fully charged with non or very little electrical Gizmo loads on the engine they wonder why their boat won't go nice and slow anymore and is bombing along on idle at something like 800-1000 rpm with everyone shouting ''slow down at them.  

I modified Innisfree's Morse control by fitting a miniature crank handle to adjust idle speed. 

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8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Perfectly true but lots of boaters still charge their batts with engine in gear. When challenged about it they all cite bore glazing as the justification, even though it is borrucks.

 

 

 

So if the justification that they cite is bollox, then there's no justification, which is what Howard said in his original post. He obviously knew about bore glazing but had discounted it. 

 

I don't really understand the point of stating an erroneous justification in order to show that a justification exists? If something is unjustified then it's not a justification.

Edited by blackrose
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On 19/04/2019 at 22:35, Mike Adams said:

This is just a plea to point out the problems caused by the practice of some boat owners who run engines in gear whilst moored up. Having a deep drafted boat I can often feel when we pass a boat/place where this has happened. Usually this is only a minor problem and not that common but a trip was thwarted this year after grounding on massive bar built up on a narrow stretch of the Staffs and Worcs canal leaving much less than 3' in the channel and a 'hole' at the bank a little way along nearly 4' deep against the piling. This must have happened over a period of time and not a few minutes. Also noticeable on the Oxford Canal where there are some Winter moorings. Not only is this bad for the waterway but the channel is lost and it is against the bylaws. Once deeper boats start moving the channel starts to be cleared but it needs time for this to happen.

 

The converse used to happen  on our Mooring on the Northern GU at Napton Junction. We never ran the engine in gear whilst moored, but even after a few weeks not mooving we had to plough our way off the mooring over a ridge of silt thrown up by boats passing us too quickly, and if we were away for four or six weeks, the ridge spread across our mooring, requiring us to plough oy way back into the bank.  I should  point out that we also had a deep drafted boat but once in the channel, there was plenty of depth for two deep boats to pass without any grounding.

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But bore glazing is not completely bollox, it does happen but with modern engines using the correct oil it is unlikely. I know that back in the day Southern Gas engineers' emergency vans with BMC diesels (1.5/1.8) did suffer bore glazing because when awaiting a call they used to be left idling to keep the cab heating warm. I think that  what we should be saying and very actively promoting is NEVER CHARGE ON IDLE, always charge at whatever speed gives the highest charge. This will also give the fastest static warm up of nay calorifier as well and probably save fuel in the long run. I suspect many  members who are or have been actively working with engines have come across bore glazing issues and I also suspect it will turn out to be across a range of engines but I doubt it will be that many.

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13 hours ago, bizzard said:

If the boats used reasonably regularly the berth shouldn't get silted up, just motoring away from it and returning usually keeps it clear. Its normally boats that never ever move that get silted in and possibly dumping their stove ashes overboard too which encourages more silt.

The practice of pouring stove ash into the cut is a bad one, it stays pretty much where it lands and forms heaps underwater. Our current mooring has several ridges which can be a problem when mooring up, and they don't shift like silt.

 Going back to running in gear, i think the danger to pets or people who may be unfortunate enough to fall in should make the practice a no no.

 

Edited by BWM
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13 minutes ago, BWM said:

The practice of pouring stove ash into the cut is a bad one, it stays pretty much where it lands and forms heaps underwater. Our current mooring has several ridges which can be a problem when mooring up, and they don't shift like silt.

 Going back to running in gear, i think the danger to pets or people who may be unfortunate enough to fall in should make the practice a no no.

 

Is there really a 'practice' of pouring stove ash into the cut? or is it just something that idiots do? I would no more pour the stove ash into the cut (bearing in mind that any coal ash will contain some nasty toxins such as arsenic,cadmium,lead, etc) than I would throw the black rubbish bag from the waste bin into the cut. I can only imagine that anyone who does tip their stove ash into the cut is of the same ilk as those who hang their plastic bags of dog sh*t on tree branches in some misplaced belief that 'someone' is going to clear it up after them.

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28 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Is there really a 'practice' of pouring stove ash into the cut? or is it just something that idiots do? I would no more pour the stove ash into the cut (bearing in mind that any coal ash will contain some nasty toxins such as arsenic,cadmium,lead, etc) than I would throw the black rubbish bag from the waste bin into the cut. I can only imagine that anyone who does tip their stove ash into the cut is of the same ilk as those who hang their plastic bags of dog sh*t on tree branches in some misplaced belief that 'someone' is going to clear it up after them.

To practice = to do, yes there are many who do this, a quick look at the boats you pass when cruising, particularly during the winter, will highlight more than a few with ash deposits on the hull side. I detest it, along with any form of littering (visible or otherwise). There are more than a few who chuck their dog mess in as well! Definitely the work of undomesticated morons but there are many.

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15 hours ago, bizzard said:

Not to mention the poor water Vole's being made homeless after getting blasted out and their homes destroyed by folk using bow thrusters to cast off from the bank,  And Kingfishers. 

 

I've never tried using a Kingfisher to get away from the bank. Are they effective and how do you tie them to the boat? ?

Edited by cuthound
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1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Is there really a 'practice' of pouring stove ash into the cut? or is it just something that idiots do? I would no more pour the stove ash into the cut (bearing in mind that any coal ash will contain some nasty toxins such as arsenic,cadmium,lead, etc) than I would throw the black rubbish bag from the waste bin into the cut. I can only imagine that anyone who does tip their stove ash into the cut is of the same ilk as those who hang their plastic bags of dog sh*t on tree branches in some misplaced belief that 'someone' is going to clear it up after them.

I can see the argument about toxins, and agree 100%. In days gone by it was normal to sling them overboard as it helped stop wooden boats from leaking! 
Some people make good any potholes in the towpath with ashes, but I expect that any toxins (at least some) will find their way into the water?
As an aside I once read that orange peel was ideal to remove certain toxins from water.
Good that the canals are cleaner now than in the sixties, when many used to flush the bog straight into the water.

15 hours ago, bizzard said:

Not to mention the poor water Vole's being made homeless after getting blasted out and their homes destroyed by folk using bow thrusters to cast off from the bank,  And Kingfishers. 

Interesting point. I wonder if the increased use of BT's will eventually become a problem at lock landings and suchlike? 

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6 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I always thought that ash was good for gardens?

I am no gardener, but seem to recall it was used for some purposes? 
From a quick Google: 
Wood ash is an excellent source of lime and potassium for your garden. Not only that, using ashes in the garden also provides many of the trace elements that plants need to thrive. But wood ash fertilizer is best used either lightly scattered or by first being composted along with the rest of your compost.

Edited by Guest
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6 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I always thought that ash was good for gardens?

Wood ash is fine, with coal ash it depends upon what you want to kill or poison. Haven't you noticed where people have dumped their coal ash as at the base of hedges on the cut it looks a bit barren.

 

https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/garden-how-to/soil-fertilizers/using-wood-ashes.htm

Edited by Wanderer Vagabond
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7 hours ago, catweasel said:

I am no gardener, but seem to recall it was used for some purposes? 
From a quick Google: 
Wood ash is an excellent source of lime and potassium for your garden. Not only that, using ashes in the garden also provides many of the trace elements that plants need to thrive. But wood ash fertilizer is best used either lightly scattered or by first being composted along with the rest of your compost.

So another reason for a composting toilet.................

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2 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

So another reason for a composting toilet.................

......so long as you don't mind carrying partially composted 'stuff' around on your boat with you until the full process is complete :sick:. They are a brilliant idea if you have your own plot of land alongside your permanent mooring where you can enrich the soil with the natural compost, not quite so smart if you are CC'ing.

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On 20/04/2019 at 23:21, bizzard said:

I doubt that there's much need for modern boat owners to need run the engine in gear whilst moored, what with normouse battery banks to charge, huge alternators and inverters and often Travel powers running to power all the big Gizmo's onboard which very likely are all loading the engine down more than that it being in gear or traveling along with the prop going around anyway.

Many years ago in UKRW I sort of made this point. On our BMC 1.5 running the engine and putting a 40-50A charge back into the batteries has a noticeable effect on the engine, and when we're out and about if someone powers up something like the sandwich toaster its very obvious to the person at the helm. I suggested that surely this implied that I was putting a heavier load on the engine than running it in gear and I was basically told to STFU.

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17 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think that  what we should be saying and very actively promoting is NEVER CHARGE ON IDLE, always charge at whatever speed gives the highest charge. 

If you're putting in the tail charge, which is what a significant proportion of the engine running time will be for those without solar (or at times of year when solar is useless) then idle is perfectly sufficient (and the alternator load is insufficient to noticeably work the engine), hence that's far from being a universal truth.

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4 hours ago, aracer said:

If you're putting in the tail charge, which is what a significant proportion of the engine running time will be for those without solar (or at times of year when solar is useless) then idle is perfectly sufficient (and the alternator load is insufficient to noticeably work the engine), hence that's far from being a universal truth.

Which is what I said ensures. If you are running your engine at the speed  that gives the highest charge you will be reducing the speed as the batteries charge and consequentially lower the charge rate. You will end up on idle but I would still keep the engine at around 1000 in most cases to minimise vibration. Even with zero alternator output you still have frictional and pumping loads working the engine but naturally they are not particularly high. Remember WWW published the HP required to propel a full length narrewboat through the canal system a number of years ago and it was only a very few HP so even cruising does not load the engine that much.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Which is what I said ensures. If you are running your engine at the speed  that gives the highest charge you will be reducing the speed as the batteries charge and consequentially lower the charge rate. You will end up on idle but I would still keep the engine at around 1000 in most cases to minimise vibration. Even with zero alternator output you still have frictional and pumping loads working the engine but naturally they are not particularly high. Remember WWW published the HP required to propel a full length narrewboat through the canal system a number of years ago and it was only a very few HP so even cruising does not load the engine that much.

You only need to read this to see how little power is needed for a big boat let alone a narrowboat

 

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16 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

You only need to read this to see how little power is needed for a big boat let alone a narrowboat

 

 

Never mind Peter's high tech electric boat, you only need to look at horse boats to see the point about how little power is takes to push a boat along.

 

The high power most boaters like to have is used for stopping, and for accelerating from stationary. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

you only need to look at horse boats to see the point about how little power is takes to push a boat along.

I though horses generally pulled, so no pushing power required!

 

More seriously, has anyone ever recorded an attempt to have a horse drawn boat pull against a propeller driven boat like the famous test of propeller vs paddle steamer (HMS Rattler vs HMS Alecto)?

 

There is a massive mechanical advantage gained by firm purchase on land compared to spinning a prop in water, but I don't know how massive, and I don't have a horse ...

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