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Notre Dame on Fire


matty40s

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Just now, Philip said:

Said what I needed to in defending the name of priests which I feel is necessary considering the malice directed towards them in the world's media. I haven't denied or defended past or even current atrocities in the Catholic Church, but generalising is nasty.

Fair enough but I haven't generalised at all. 

Saying that most paedophiles are attracted to professions such as the priesthood that allow unfettered access to children isn't the same as saying that most priests are paedophile. 

 

All penguins are birds but not all birds are penguins. 

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2 minutes ago, Philip said:

Said what I needed to in defending the name of priests which I feel is necessary considering the malice directed towards them in the world's media. 

Most people respect and look up to priests, vicars and the like. But of course, a dedicated vicar diligently caring for his flock isn't newsworthy*. The one who despoils a choirboy is.

 

*If you detect a hint of cynicism in my choice of adjective, you're probably right.

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22 minutes ago, carlt said:

The fact that paedophiles are attracted to the priesthood and then protected by the church is, in my opinion, a whole different level. 

Thank you Carl - in that one line you have just saved me form CWDF life time ban. 

 

I would very much like to wade into this debate, in fact I would love to have this "conversation" I just can't do it without impassioned colour and graphic profanity, the like of which would make the Brexit thread look like cream cheese and cucumber sandwiches, because my level of disgust at the whole institution is so high. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, carlt said:

Fair enough but I haven't generalised at all. 

Saying that most paedophiles are attracted to professions such as the priesthood that allow unfettered access to children isn't the same as saying that most priests are paedophile. 

 

All penguins are birds but not all birds are penguins. 

It was more the original comment about dubious characters I was referring to and that got up my nose. And I agree, it has unfortunately been a ministry/means which has allowed easy access to children for paedophiles, but in terms of the UK at least things are thankfully a lot more stringent now in this area and attitudes different.

Edited by Philip
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2 minutes ago, Athy said:

Damned if do, damned if don't, eh?

 

 

Not at all... 

If they had said "Here's medicine so your children won't die and here are condoms because you don't need to have a dozen babies in the hope that a couple will survive" literally millions of miserable deaths would have been avoided. 

Just now, Philip said:

It was more the original comment about dubious characters I was referring to and that got up my nose.

Being called a dubious character is not nearly as bad as being declared a sinner who will suffer eternal damnation and suffering because of my healthy scepticism. 

I am not generalising when I say all Catholic priests are instructed to teach that. 

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7 minutes ago, Athy said:

Most people respect and look up to priests, vicars and the like. But of course, a dedicated vicar diligently caring for his flock isn't newsworthy*. The one who despoils a choirboy is.

 

*If you detect a hint of cynicism in my choice of adjective, you're probably right.

I'd suggest that most people who share the faith of vicars, priests and the like respect them. Those who don't have that faith, the vast majority of folk, are indifferent towards them, as they are an irrelevance. 

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And taking things back to the mundane I suspect there will be a massive fundraising exercise to renovate the place when I suspect the Catholic Church must just, possibly, have enough dosh in the bank to pay for it themselves. But no, the poor and gullible will be manipulated into funding it again, I predict. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Philip said:

It was more the original comment about dubious characters I was referring to and that got up my nose.

It get's up my nose that you are defending those dubious characters so I guess it's Potato Pot-tato

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Athy said:

 

 

The damage to this mighty, imposing and historic building would be just as much a tragedy whether it was staffed by Catholics, Jains or Seventh-Day Adventists - let's not lose sight of that.

 

 

Indeed.

Apparently the fire is completely extinguished now... Without having to employ Mr trump's expert advice. 

Edited by carlt
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10 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

I'd suggest that most people who share the faith of vicars, priests and the like respect them. Those who don't have that faith, the vast majority of folk, are indifferent towards them, as they are an irrelevance. 

I don't think so. To most people, vicar = good, humane person, even if that vicar isn't their spiritual leader.

2 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

Or gender bias?

No, "newsworthy" does not have a gender bias.

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10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And taking things back to the mundane I suspect there will be a massive fundraising exercise to renovate the place when I suspect the Catholic Church must just, possibly, have enough dosh in the bank to pay for it themselves. But no, the poor and gullible will be manipulated into funding it again, I predict. 

 I think in this instance the Building is bigger and of more importance than the church. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Athy said:

I don't think so. To most people, vicar = good, humane person, even if that vicar isn't their spiritual leader.

Changed my mind - rabbit hole and spiral, so nope. 

 

 

 

Edited by Tumshie
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8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And taking things back to the mundane I suspect there will be a massive fundraising exercise to renovate the place when I suspect the Catholic Church must just, possibly, have enough dosh in the bank to pay for it themselves. But no, the poor and gullible will be manipulated into funding it again, I predict. 

 

 

That's a tricky one. France is legally a secular state, so why should the state pay for a church to be rebuilt? On the other hand, Notre Dame is one of the glories of France and an internationally-recognised symbol of the nation, so why shouldn't the state reach into its coffers?

I'm not sure if M. Macaroon has made a pronouncement on the subject of finance yet.

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16 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

It get's up my nose that you are defending those dubious characters so I guess it's Potato Pot-tato

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

It get's up my nose that you are defending those dubious characters so I guess it's Potato Pot-tato

 

 

I'm not defending those who genuinely are 'dubious characters', I'm defending the name of priests in general.

 

In reference to being declared a sinner with eternal damnation for being sceptical, I can believe some priests do still hold this view, but I can personally speak for a lot who don't and have a much more modern and meaningful way of thinking.

Edited by Philip
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1 minute ago, Philip said:

but I can personally speak for a lot who don't and have a much more modern and meaningful way of thinking.

 

So what exactly is the current official position of the Catholic Church on what is is store for the non believers and the sceptical?

 

Do tell. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

So what exactly is the current official position of the Catholic Church on what is is store for the non believers and the sceptical?

 

Do tell. 

 

 

I honestly don't know the official position, although Pope Francis doesn't strike me as someone who clings to this notion, he seems much more forward thinking than some previous Popes. I can speak for a good number of parish priests who distance themselves from this view and focus more on how we treat our fellow humans.

Edited by Philip
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3 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

 I think in this instance the Building is bigger and of more importance than the church. 

 

 

I used to have regular tea and cake sessions with my village vicar (we both enjoyed the irony) who came from a long line of Yorkshire Mill workers who had died from various fibre and poverty related illnesses. 

He had an ingrained hatred of the mill owners and passionately believed that their huge manor houses should be razed to the ground as punishment for their crimes until I pointed out that, as an atheist, shouldn't I want that of all religious buildings? 

Whatever the reason for their original construction churches are a magnificent testament to the the skills and toil of the workers who built them and should be preserved as a reminder of the genius of man... as well as the folly that so often inspired such genius. 

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18 minutes ago, carlt said:

Indeed.

Apparently the fire is completely extinguished now... Without having to employ Mr trump's expert advice. 

Trump, as usual, opened his mouth without engaging his brain first, but he’s very good at that, if nothing else.

About the fire, and the history of fires caused by renovation work, I would add Uppark House.

The collégial church here in town is at the start of a planned 15 year restoration project, and I do hope that special attention will be given to fire safety during the works. It is a beautiful example of 12th century largely Norman architecture.

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10 minutes ago, Philip said:

 

In reference to being declared a sinner with eternal damnation for being sceptical, I can believe some priests do still hold this view, but I can personally speak for a lot who don't and have a much more modern and meaningful way of thinking.

Absolutely! But..that is contrary to their doctrine and, in the eyes of their church, they may well be sharing a lava pit with me. 

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