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On 15/04/2019 at 10:42, Machpoint005 said:

 

As has been pointed out on another thread, there is a huge gulf between "can be recycled" and "will be recycled".

It's still not relevant to a diesel hybrid boat propulsion system, which does not save energy and is over-complicating the issue.

 

Now, if we were talking about a hydrogen fuel cell hybrid system ...  

Honda have opened a recycling plant for Lithiums as well Ian, their reasoning is better to be at the forefront rather than an also ran, I get this crap on my battery google feed.

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8 hours ago, peterboat said:

Sept was when euro 6d temp came in, euro 6 has been in for a while and was deffo not doing the job hence the majority of diesel cars disappeared. The problems with diesels is the add ons to clean them up, which bumps the price up and reduces fuel consumption, they are also very expensive to repair, so the question is why bother? A good hybrid  can produce better mpg and be cleaner than a diesel 

Cars registered after 1 Sept 15 and those approved after 1 Sept 14 all had to met Euro 6,  but Euro 5 engines, introduced in 2009, were still able to be sold until 1 Sept 16.  Euro 6, in all its guises, is still the current standard and meets the latest London ULEZ requirements.  It was Euro 5 that wasn't doing the job and whilst those and older engines are no longer on sale, they haven't disappeared including those far before Euro 5 - there's still smokey old diesel Astras, etc, all over the place. Hopefully the "no visible smoke" test in the MOT will get them soon, but it's not true to say the majority of diesel cars disappeared, just thar those which couldn't be made to meet Euro 6 have ceased production.

 

I don't disagree with your statement in bold (although the latest petrol cars are now also having particulate filters fitted so "cleaner" is arguable) and had you read my my post with an open mind you'd realise that's exactly what I was saying would be my preference using currently available tech - only I said diesel hybrid as opposed to petrol hybrid. Lest we forget, petrol engines still pollute, even those in hybrids, and much worse than a Euro 6 Diesel in many ways - as I'm pretty sure the Euro 7 changes will re-expose.

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1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

Cars registered after 1 Sept 15 and those approved after 1 Sept 14 all had to met Euro 6,  but Euro 5 engines, introduced in 2009, were still able to be sold until 1 Sept 16.  Euro 6, in all its guises, is still the current standard and meets the latest London ULEZ requirements.  It was Euro 5 that wasn't doing the job and whilst those and older engines are no longer on sale, they haven't disappeared including those far before Euro 5 - there's still smokey old diesel Astras, etc, all over the place. Hopefully the "no visible smoke" test in the MOT will get them soon, but it's not true to say the majority of diesel cars disappeared, just thar those which couldn't be made to meet Euro 6 have ceased production.

 

I don't disagree with your statement in bold (although the latest petrol cars are now also having particulate filters fitted so "cleaner" is arguable) and had you read my my post with an open mind you'd realise that's exactly what I was saying would be my preference using currently available tech - only I said diesel hybrid as opposed to petrol hybrid. Lest we forget, petrol engines still pollute, even those in hybrids, and much worse than a Euro 6 Diesel in many ways - as I'm pretty sure the Euro 7 changes will re-expose.

I am afraid you are wrong last September euro 6d temp was introduced much stricter and it massacred diesel cars have a look on line honestly I am not being funny or anything, but in reality car makers are dropping diesels as the sales are falling monthly read this article 

Do you know your Euro 6 from your 6c and 6d-TEMP? | Fleet Europe

 

 
 
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22 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I am afraid you are wrong last September euro 6d temp was introduced much stricter and it massacred diesel cars have a look on line honestly I am not being funny or anything, but in reality car makers are dropping diesels as the sales are falling monthly read this article 

Do you know your Euro 6 from your 6c and 6d-TEMP? | Fleet Europe

 

 
 

This would be a far a better discussion in the pub over a pint than in this un-nuanced media. ;)  I know you're into electric propulsion, lithium batteries, etc, and admire your pioneering spirit and knowledge. I completely expect to follow your lead before long.

 

That's a good find and a good read Peter, thanks... I think the rows in the table for Euro 6 petrol and diesel (no sub cats in there though which tweaked the tests after VW's "diesel gate") show (1) how there's now nothing in it between the latest petrol and diesel engines in terms of the NOx and Particulate emissions that whipped up the anti-diesel storm and (2) that petrol still produces double the CO (assuming they meet rather than exceed the standards). What really changes things next is the cutting the allowable emissions of CO2. To quote that article: "OEMs need diesel to achieve the EU-imposed 95 g/km CO2target by 2021, but reverting to diesel alone won't cut it."   

 

Right now I think the rarer diesel hybrid PHEV is the better compromise: emission free electric around the urban space, high mpg diesel for long distance work.  I agree that it's still flawed, and it won't solve all our ills going forward, but my point is that, hybrid or not, petrol isn't the answer either for much the same reasons as diesel (as that table illustrates) but with additional CO2 on top. 

 

That's the thing - getting rid of diesel only to turn to petrol doesn't do the job.  I know there's a move away from diesel and I think it's a good aim (encouraging small diesels for low mileage use was always a daft idea) but it's a knee jerk and smacks of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. The diesel act has been cleaned up, but we tar them all with the same brush... and the old dirty ones are still out there anyway.  Besides that, the haulage industry isn't moving away from diesel any time soon and the second hand car market has an entirely different attitude to the company  car driven new vehicle market - but that's another subject.

 

Roll on that extended range EV (although how many folk truly need 200 miles plus even now?) then we'll solve the driver's dilemma at national or even global level with cheap and plentiful emission-free electricity produced from... er...

:)

 

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17 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

This would be a far a better discussion in the pub over a pint than in this un-nuanced media. ;)  I know you're into electric propulsion, lithium batteries, etc, and admire your pioneering spirit and knowledge. I completely expect to follow your lead before long.

 

That's a good find and a good read Peter, thanks... I think the rows in the table for Euro 6 petrol and diesel (no sub cats in there though which tweaked the tests after VW's "diesel gate") show (1) how there's now nothing in it between the latest petrol and diesel engines in terms of the NOx and Particulate emissions that whipped up the anti-diesel storm and (2) that petrol still produces double the CO (assuming they meet rather than exceed the standards). What really changes things next is the cutting the allowable emissions of CO2. To quote that article: "OEMs need diesel to achieve the EU-imposed 95 g/km CO2target by 2021, but reverting to diesel alone won't cut it."   

 

Right now I think the rarer diesel hybrid PHEV is the better compromise: emission free electric around the urban space, high mpg diesel for long distance work.  I agree that it's still flawed, and it won't solve all our ills going forward, but my point is that, hybrid or not, petrol isn't the answer either for much the same reasons as diesel (as that table illustrates) but with additional CO2 on top. 

 

That's the thing - getting rid of diesel only to turn to petrol doesn't do the job.  I know there's a move away from diesel and I think it's a good aim (encouraging small diesels for low mileage use was always a daft idea) but it's a knee jerk and smacks of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. The diesel act has been cleaned up, but we tar them all with the same brush... and the old dirty ones are still out there anyway.  Besides that, the haulage industry isn't moving away from diesel any time soon and the second hand car market has an entirely different attitude to the company  car driven new vehicle market - but that's another subject.

 

Roll on that extended range EV (although how many folk truly need 200 miles plus even now?) then we'll solve the driver's dilemma at national or even global level with cheap and plentiful emission-free electricity produced from... er...

:)

 

Its an eyeopener isnt it? People have no idea that the only new car that will be able to pull a caravan will be electric! I have known for ages that a serious change was going to happen, but I was surprised at how clean cars were going have to be. Yes if we ever meet up a pint would be nice?

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Whilst electric has its benefits I like many others am not really able to use it. I regularly travel 250 to 300 miles in one run to my sons and daughters homes say 2 round trips a month. Both like 40% of the population do not have a drive and park on the street anywhere you can find a space,so plug in in not an option. So when I can do 300 miles in winter with the heater and lights on with no more than a half hour stop. And get magically recharged so I can return 3 days later then electric becomes an option, they both have an Asda nearby to fill up in 5 minutes for the return journey. 

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9 hours ago, peterboat said:

Its an eyeopener isnt it? People have no idea that the only new car that will be able to pull a caravan will be electric! I have known for ages that a serious change was going to happen, but I was surprised at how clean cars were going have to be. Yes if we ever meet up a pint would be nice?

So the roads will be littered with even more caravans by the side of the road as their owners now run out of charge :rolleyes:

 

As much as you would like your dream to come true it is highly unlikely in any of our lifetimes.

 

The diesel engine is here to stay.

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5 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

So the roads will be littered with even more caravans by the side of the road as their owners now run out of charge :rolleyes:

 

As much as you would like your dream to come true it is highly unlikely in any of our lifetimes.

 

The diesel engine is here to stay.

Its not just the 'running out of charge', it is that (currently) there is only one car certified for towing - and that only 2,2 tonnes - not much use with a 1.5 tonne trailer and the best part of 2 tonnes of horses on board.

 

However, that is not to say an electric car can’t be used to tow. Currently the only pure electric vehicle certified for towing is the Tesla Model X. It’s capable of towing an impressive 2,270kg, and Tesla has built it with a ‘trailer mode’. This shuts off some of the car’s drive-assistance features that wouldn’t work as well with a trailer.

 

https://www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/131/can-i-tow-caravan-electric-or-hybrid-car

 

The other problem is that if an electric car breaks down (of gets flat batteries) then it cannot be towed, it must be lifted onto a flat-bed truck.

 

I recently took our (diesel 4wd Merc) for its MOT and the garage owner was having a 'moan' about electric vehicles - the big complaint is the prices he has to charge for repairs.

 

Customers complain about paying £100s to change a tyre.

The motor is built into the wheel and the whole lot must be disconnected before you can even remove the wheel (you need a 'high-voltage handling' certificate*) to be able to do so, then disassemble the whole wheel to get the tyre off, then replace everything, he reckons it the best part of a day's job for one person.

 

* Electric cars are typically running on 400-800 volts and as newer models come out the voltage seems to be moving towards the higher end.

 

In a safety guide created by Tesla for first responders dealing with emergencies involving the Model S, it explains how to disable the high voltage system but warns, “Regardless of the disabling procedure you use, ALWAYS ASSUME THAT ALL HIGH VOLTAGE COMPONENTS ARE ENERGIZED! Cutting, crushing, or touching high voltage components can result in serious injury or death.”

 

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/safety-training-urgently-needed-mechanics-working-electric-hybrid-cars/

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10 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

This would be a far a better discussion in the pub over a pint than in this un-nuanced media. ;)  I know you're into electric propulsion, lithium batteries, etc, and admire your pioneering spirit and knowledge. I completely expect to follow your lead before long.

 

That's a good find and a good read Peter, thanks... I think the rows in the table for Euro 6 petrol and diesel (no sub cats in there though which tweaked the tests after VW's "diesel gate") show (1) how there's now nothing in it between the latest petrol and diesel engines in terms of the NOx and Particulate emissions that whipped up the anti-diesel storm and (2) that petrol still produces double the CO (assuming they meet rather than exceed the standards). What really changes things next is the cutting the allowable emissions of CO2. To quote that article: "OEMs need diesel to achieve the EU-imposed 95 g/km CO2target by 2021, but reverting to diesel alone won't cut it."   

 

Right now I think the rarer diesel hybrid PHEV is the better compromise: emission free electric around the urban space, high mpg diesel for long distance work.  I agree that it's still flawed, and it won't solve all our ills going forward, but my point is that, hybrid or not, petrol isn't the answer either for much the same reasons as diesel (as that table illustrates) but with additional CO2 on top. 

 

That's the thing - getting rid of diesel only to turn to petrol doesn't do the job.  I know there's a move away from diesel and I think it's a good aim (encouraging small diesels for low mileage use was always a daft idea) but it's a knee jerk and smacks of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. The diesel act has been cleaned up, but we tar them all with the same brush... and the old dirty ones are still out there anyway.  Besides that, the haulage industry isn't moving away from diesel any time soon and the second hand car market has an entirely different attitude to the company  car driven new vehicle market - but that's another subject.

 

Roll on that extended range EV (although how many folk truly need 200 miles plus even now?) then we'll solve the driver's dilemma at national or even global level with cheap and plentiful emission-free electricity produced from... er...

:)

 

A hell of a lot of them. I for one on a very very regular basis, also my sister that comes down from Scotland twice a month so thats two out of three siblings, my other sister doesnt travel far. This is by far the biggest stumbling block for these early prototype cars, thats are all they are at present.

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Most (all?) electric cars don't have the motors built into the wheel because this means a huge unsprung mass which wrecks the ride -- in fact I don't know of any production cars like this, all the ones I'm aware of have motors connected to the wheels by driveshafts just like any other car. There have been prototypes shown with in-wheel motors but this doesn't get round the unsprung mass problem (motors weigh around 80lb each), which could be why none of them are in production.

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/pioneering-wheel-electric-motor-tech-set-transform-evs-year

 

Does anyone know different?

 

Also even in the prototypes with in-wheel motors the wheel just bolts on as normal over the motor, like it would over a brake assembly. So I don't understand what the garage owner is moaning about...

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5 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

A hell of a lot of them. I for one on a very very regular basis

Me too, but many, many more will never do 200 miles - but they think they just might sometime, so sales of EVs are limited by a potentially false premises of insufficient range, I'd offer. Mind you  it's hard to charge your EV if you're unable to park by a charging point or outside your own home with complete reliability. It's a conundrum, innit?

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1 minute ago, Sea Dog said:

Me too, but many, many more will never do 200 miles - but they think they just might sometime, so sales of EVs are limited by a potentially false premises of insufficient range, I'd offer. Mind you  it's hard to charge your EV if you're unable to park by a charging point or outside your own home with complete reliability. It's a conundrum, innit?

Yes quite so. I liken it in a way though to 57 foot narrowboats. I know a hell of a lot of people who would love the comfort and space of 70 feet but buy 57 footers ( cos they go anywhere ) they then for the next twenty years cruise between london and Braunston or similar ?

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8 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Yes quite so. I liken it in a way though to 57 foot narrowboats. I know a hell of a lot of people who would love the comfort and space of 70 feet but buy 57 footers ( cos they go anywhere ) they then for the next twenty years cruise between london and Braunston or similar ?

I agree. Mine is 57ft and I don't think I've even come close to any limitation which anything bigger would have  got stuck at yet. In my defence, I was looking up to about 62' when we found her.

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4 hours ago, IanD said:

Most (all?) electric cars don't have the motors built into the wheel because this means a huge unsprung mass which wrecks the ride -- in fact I don't know of any production cars like this, all the ones I'm aware of have motors connected to the wheels by driveshafts just like any other car. There have been prototypes shown with in-wheel motors but this doesn't get round the unsprung mass problem (motors weigh around 80lb each), which could be why none of them are in production.

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/pioneering-wheel-electric-motor-tech-set-transform-evs-year

 

Does anyone know different?

 

Also even in the prototypes with in-wheel motors the wheel just bolts on as normal over the motor, like it would over a brake assembly. So I don't understand what the garage owner is moaning about...

Ian its like this all the time, my mate Alan has bought a p100D secondhand, lovely car goes to London twice a week Sets off from home early in the morning, stops at Woodhall services and charges up for free while he has breakfast, or if he is charged goes the Newport Pagnell for Brunch. He then does his business in London no congestion charge Parks in a car park for free because its electric then comes home and charges at Woodhall for free. He claims his 45 pence a mile and makes a health profit. These Dinosaurs on here will be extinct because progress will make them so.

Alan was skeptical about doing this but I convinced him it would save him money, he says its the best car he has ever drove [plus the fastest 0-60 2.4 seconds] his wife loves it and although they have home charging they havent needed it because the system works for him.

As you say the motors are inside not in the wheel, the wheel thing is for converting old cars to electric

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8 hours ago, Detling said:

Whilst electric has its benefits I like many others am not really able to use it. I regularly travel 250 to 300 miles in one run to my sons and daughters homes say 2 round trips a month. Both like 40% of the population do not have a drive and park on the street anywhere you can find a space,so plug in in not an option. So when I can do 300 miles in winter with the heater and lights on with no more than a half hour stop. And get magically recharged so I can return 3 days later then electric becomes an option, they both have an Asda nearby to fill up in 5 minutes for the return journey. 

That time is here....

 

Obviously the Teslas and the Jaguar iPace can gobble up hundreds of miles on one charge but they will also be out of the price range most will want to pay but the Hyundai Kona will do what you want easily and won't break the bank.

 

7 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

A hell of a lot of them. I for one on a very very regular basis, also my sister that comes down from Scotland twice a month so thats two out of three siblings, my other sister doesnt travel far. This is by far the biggest stumbling block for these early prototype cars, thats are all they are at present.

Because Orkney is the renewables capital of the known universe there are loads of people there with electric cars, there is a guy call Jonathan Porterfield who has a EV sales room up there, his other place is in Hinckley (Leicestershire). All his EVs go to Hinkley from were he drives them up to Aberdeen and onto the ferry to the Northern Isles. 

 

He also has a youtube channel. 

 

1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

it's hard to charge your EV if you're unable to park by a charging point or outside your own home with complete reliability. It's a conundrum, innit?

 

That's why there are real time maps and forum communities (just like this one).

 

8 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

So the roads will be littered with even more caravans by the side of the road as their owners now run out of charge :rolleyes:

 

As much as you would like your dream to come true it is highly unlikely in any of our lifetimes.

 

The diesel engine is here to stay.

I don't think diesel is here to stay - not because I am biased against it because I'm not, not when it comes to working vehicles - but I think it's time is numbered. Electric tow vehicles are not anywhere near what they would need to be in this country, but the Americans are producing working pick up trucks like the Rivian so perhaps they are not that far away even in this country. 

 

https://products.rivian.com

 

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

not much use with a 1.5 tonne trailer and the best part of 2 tonnes of horses on board.

It's just as well no body on this forum actually knows how much horses really weigh ?

 

 

 

Edited by Tumshie
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17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

According to the Vet, this one is about 800kg (without rider !!!!!)

Which is not 1000Kg and do you have two at that weight which you tow together (1600kg). And are most people dragging around two horses the size of two Shire stallions, which are closer to the 1000kg mark. I do agree with you though, there is not an electric vehicle that is suitable for towing.  

 

 

ETA - Very beautiful beastie. ♥️

 

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Just now, Tumshie said:

Which is not 1000Kg and do you have two at that weight which you tow together (1600kg). And are most people dragging around two horses the size of two Shire stallions. I do agree with you though, there is not an electric vehicle that is suitable for towing.  

 

 

 

 

I could, if I were daft enough to ever want to spend thirty grand on a poxy car, buy a Nissan Leaf and drive it half way to my Mums which I do twice a month minimum and park for five hours to recharge on the way there so taking seven hours, assuming nice weather so dont need lights, wipers and heating on!! or else I would have to stop twice. Or as I do now do the trip in 2 hours in my 1k smooth comfy reliable petrol car. Mmmmmm decisions, decisions. Yes one day we will probably be lectric, but as I say, we are a hell of a long way off it yet.

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3 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I could, if I were daft enough to ever want to spend thirty grand on a poxy car, buy a Nissan Leaf and drive it half way to my Mums which I do twice a month minimum and park for five hours to recharge on the way there so taking seven hours, assuming nice weather so dont need lights, wipers and heating on!! or else I would have to stop twice. Or as I do now do the trip in 2 hours in my 1k smooth comfy reliable petrol car. Mmmmmm decisions, decisions. Yes one day we will probably be lectric, but as I say, we are a hell of a long way off it yet.

You only had to say you don't want one ?

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2 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

You only had to say you don't want one ?

But I do want one BUT the price and range difference makes them nonsensical. A new one is circa 30k my comfy old car was 1k and does the job better. Lets turn that into narrowboat terms. Say you paid 50k for a used narrowboat that does everything you need it to do but then bought the latest leccy new narrowboat at 1 million 500 thousand pounds as in thrirty times more money and it didnt do so much.............mmmmmmmmmmmm will it catch on??

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3 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

But I do want one BUT the price and range difference makes them nonsensical. A new one is circa 30k my comfy old car was 1k and does the job better. Lets turn that into narrowboat terms. Say you paid 50k for a used narrowboat that does everything you need it to do but then bought the latest leccy new narrowboat at 1 million 500 thousand pounds as in thrirty times more money and it didnt do so much.............mmmmmmmmmmmm will it catch on??

Which is a perfectly valid point - you can't even buy a twizzy for £1k. There is no black and white with this argument, if you can even call it an argument. And just like most thing there is not one size fits all. 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

Which is a perfectly valid point - you can't even buy a twizzy for £1k. There is no black and white with this argument, if you can even call it an argument. And just like most thing there is not one size fits all. 

 

 

:o Just looked on line at one of those twizzy jobbies!! Chocolate fireguards and Eco fans spring to mind!!

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31 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

Which is not 1000Kg and do you have two at that weight which you tow together (1600kg). And are most people dragging around two horses the size of two Shire stallions, which are closer to the 1000kg mark. I do agree with you though, there is not an electric vehicle that is suitable for towing.  

 

 

ETA - Very beautiful beastie. ♥️

 

He is not a Shire, he is a Normady Cob (and not an overly large one either) being just 15:2HH

Have a 17HH Shire cross as well.

Am (normally) regularly towing two-up as SWMBOS fiend (spelling on purpose) has not passed her towing test (being old fogies, we got Grandfather rights)

 

Unfortunately SWMBO's accident on 8th March has put paid to riding this year.

She fell off a 3-step mounting block and totally snapped off her foot - just bones (Tib & Fib) sticking out of the bottom of her leg. I won't go into more detail or post the pics as they are sickening, but, surgeon thinks they have saved it and she will be able to weight bear on it in another 3 months or so,

 

That's this Summer cruising out of the window - cannot get the wheelchair aboard and not much point in doing so anyway.

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

He is not a Shire, he is a Normady Cob (and not an overly large one either) being just 15:2HH

Have a 17HH Shire cross as well.

Am (normally) regularly towing two-up as SWMBOS fiend (spelling on purpose) has not passed her towing test (being old fogies, we got Grandfather rights)

 

Unfortunately SWMBO's accident on 8th March has put paid to riding this year.

She fell off a 3-step mounting block and totally snapped off her foot - just bones (Tib & Fib) sticking out of the bottom of her leg. I won't go into more detail or post the pics as they are sickening, but, surgeon thinks they have saved it and she will be able to weight bear on it in another 3 months or so,

 

That's this Summer cruising out of the window - cannot get the wheelchair aboard and not much point in doing so anyway.

:o OUCH!!

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