Sailaways with diesel/hybrid engine

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Murflynn said:

they said something similar about oil several decades ago.

fact is that as demand increases mankind finds new ways to locate and extract the world's resources.

some estimates say that there is currently more oil in proven resources than ever before.

there was a time when all the world's steamships were powered by Welsh steam coal - coal had not been discovered in most countries because there had been no historical demand for it.

I am certain that oil (and other fuel) shortage scares have been used to falsely inflate the price over the years. That said it will run out one day; it is a finite resource. 

[peterboat]

35 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

As has been pointed out on another thread, there is a huge gulf between "can be recycled" and "will be recycled".

It's still not relevant to a diesel hybrid boat propulsion system, which does not save energy and is over-complicating the issue.

 

Now, if we were talking about a hydrogen fuel cell hybrid system ...  

Birmingham UNI had one it wasnt a great success if I remember rightly but that was years ago and things have moved on, the great thing is with solar it would be viable as you would have a backup with the fuel cell

[Murflynn]

2 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

It's the amount that's recoverable that matters. There is an awful lot of Brent oil still in place but it cannot be extracted. Whether we should extract it is another question.

cannot? 

I guess you might wish to qualify that by saying 'using currently available technology and resources'.

Venezuela has the world's largest oil reserves, but no sane company is going to get involved while the current unstable political and economic situation persists.

 

to quote Wiki:

Because proven reserves include oil recoverable under current economic conditions, nations may see large increases in proven reserves when known, but previously uneconomic deposits become economic to develop. In this way, Canada's proven reserves increased suddenly in 2003 when the oil sands of Alberta were seen to be economically viable. Similarly, Venezuela's proven reserves jumped in the late 2000s when the heavy oil of the Orinoco was judged economic.

 

Nobody alive today is likely to see the day that the oil runs out, if it ever does (taking into account that the world may, just may, move away from fossil fuels for powering ships, aircraft (and trains in remote areas).

[Jen-in-Wellies]

49 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Birmingham UNI had one it wasnt a great success if I remember rightly but that was years ago and things have moved on, the great thing is with solar it would be viable as you would have a backup with the fuel cell

It is still moored up on the Worcester and Birmingham on the offside by the Uni, last time I went by on the train. Looking in need of a bit of TLC now.

 

Jen

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Murflynn said:

cannot? 

I guess you might wish to qualify that by saying 'using currently available technology and resources'.

Venezuela has the world's largest oil reserves, but no sane company is going to get involved while the current unstable political and economic situation persists.

 

to quote Wiki:

Because proven reserves include oil recoverable under current economic conditions, nations may see large increases in proven reserves when known, but previously uneconomic deposits become economic to develop. In this way, Canada's proven reserves increased suddenly in 2003 when the oil sands of Alberta were seen to be economically viable. Similarly, Venezuela's proven reserves jumped in the late 2000s when the heavy oil of the Orinoco was judged economic.

 

Nobody alive today is likely to see the day that the oil runs out, if it ever does (taking into account that the world may, just may, move away from fossil fuels for powering ships, aircraft (and trains in remote areas).

 

 

'Xactly. 

 

As the oil gets used up, it gets scarcer so the price rises. The higher price makes previously uneconomic deposits viable to extract.

 

And so the process continues ad infinitum OR, until the ever rising price makes alternative energy sources (e.g. solar and big batteries) viable by the same mechanism. 

 

 

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

As has been pointed out on another thread, there is a huge gulf between "can be recycled" and "will be recycled".

It's still not relevant to a diesel hybrid boat propulsion system, which does not save energy and is over-complicating the issue.

 

Now, if we were talking about a hydrogen fuel cell hybrid system ...  

...then you'd be talking about something even less efficient than a diesel/battery parallel hybrid ?

 

[which do save some energy compared to a simple diesel, but nothing like enough to make up for the increased build cost]

[Stilllearning]

23 hours ago, Tumshie said:

I like the idea of them Mike on the other hand not coming round to them any time soon and while I don't like it he does actually have a point. We have talked about this before and I'll find the link for it in a bit. 

 

Toyota are at the moment advertising self charging hybrid cars but it is a bit of a misnomer because the don't self charge the diesel engine just has to work harder to make the electric which rather defeats the purpose and doesn't make them much greener. 

 

 

All hybrid cars are self charging cars! Those ads induce me into shouting at the tv. Bloody advertising copywriters have no shame and would be hard put to justify the existence of their jobs.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Stilllearning

[Tumshie]

1 minute ago, Stilllearning said:

All hybrid cars are self charging cars!

Toyota is the only one I've seen call their car that in advertisements - They're running a campaign just now making a big deal out of the self charging bit. 

 

That's why I mentioned it - it was easy to find if someone wanted to do some research. No more no less. ?‍♀️

[mrsmelly]

My lovely smoooooooooooooooth petrol engined car still works very very well and I still have no problem getting fuel for it. My boat diesel likewise.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

My lovely smoooooooooooooooth petrol engined car still works very very well and I still have no problem getting fuel for it. My boat diesel likewise.

Yep, my old long suffering petrol powered Ford car too. The old girl must have paid for her carbon footprint by now, not to mention the car.
 

[cuthound]

3 hours ago, peterboat said:

 

 

Cobalt is not going to be in batteries in the future, it causes problems, is expensive so batteries are out there already using other metals. As for recycling its happening we had a tread on here about it ages ago, JLR sat they can recycle the batteries, so I know who I believe

 

And marketing men are known for always telling the whole truth without any embellishment aren't they! ?

[mrsmelly]

26 minutes ago, catweasel said:

Yep, my old long suffering petrol powered Ford car too. The old girl must have paid for her carbon footprint by now, not to mention the car.
 

Yep. All these folks with " Green " credentials usualy buy nowt but rent a new car every two years when there was nowt wrong with the one they had. Simply making their new cars causes more grief to the planet than using one till it dies.

[peterboat]

4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Yep. All these folks with " Green " credentials usualy buy nowt but rent a new car every two years when there was nowt wrong with the one they had. Simply making their new cars causes more grief to the planet than using one till it dies.

Tim it doesnt matter, they dont get scrapped at 2 years old, they get sold, until eventually you buy it at the end of its life. So you need those idiots to buy new cars and lose thousands on, so you can keep on motoring ?

[Murflynn]

41 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

My lovely smoooooooooooooooth petrol engined car still works very very well and I still have no problem getting fuel for it. 

same here............................  what's more mine is self-charging.    It is only on very rare occasions that the battery is too flat to start it.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Stilllearning said:

All hybrid cars are self charging cars! Those ads induce me into shouting at the tv. Bloody advertising copywriters have no shame and would be hard put to justify the existence of their jobs.

Hybrid cars -- even without plug-in charging -- do save some fuel (and have lower C)2 emissions) because the added load of the generator can move the engine up into a higher efficiency region, regenerative braking can produce more energy "for free", and then the resulting stored power can be used for propulsion when the IC engine is shut down.

 

However the fuel/CO2 savings are much smaller than used to be promised in the discredited NEDC figures, they basically gamed the system to get ridiculously good mpg/CO2 figures which were never borne out in practice, but meant that for anyone with a company car the BIK tax made them a bargain. And again the savings in fuel cost nowhere near made up for the increased vehicle price. And it was always ridiculous that a huge "hybrid" SUV was exempt from things like the congestion charge when its emissions in real life were far bigger than lots of smaller cars which had to pay it...

 

Now the tax breaks/fiddles have been clamped down on to some extent and the new WLTP test is much less favourable to them (also things like congestion charge/ULEV exemptions) a lot of the manufacturers have suddenly become less keen on non-plug-in hybrids -- in other words they were always a tax fiddle, not a serious way to reduce emissions. Now the abuse of the system has switched to plug-in hybrids which if charged at home (or even better at work) do reduce emissions, but since most owners never plug them in the real benefits are much less than claimed or even nil.

 

The only vehicles which really do reduce emissions (even if the electricity comes from fossil fuels) are BEV, but many people are against these due to range anxiety or inability to easily recharge them.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Tim it doesnt matter, they dont get scrapped at 2 years old, they get sold, until eventually you buy it at the end of its life. So you need those idiots to buy new cars and lose thousands on, so you can keep on motoring ?

I think there is truth in that, but still a lot of cars get scrapped that shouldn't. When my mechanic son was between jobs, he went on the gas axe at a very large local vehicle dismantlers. Being a car enthusiast (especially classics) he used to come home gutted at the cars that he saw crushed each day that still had plenty of life in them. He wanted to give them all a good home. He was inconsolable when the government of the day did the stupid scrappage thing; perfectly good cars crushed to enable Hyundai and similar to flood our market. At the time I had an old but mint Shogun  and could have got more for it if I had it crushed, than if I sold it. I sold it on principle, and still going today according to the vehicle road tax website.
We have become a "throw away" society.

[mrsmelly]

46 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Tim it doesnt matter, they dont get scrapped at 2 years old, they get sold, until eventually you buy it at the end of its life. So you need those idiots to buy new cars and lose thousands on, so you can keep on motoring ?

Yeah but no but yeah but if the plonkers who buy em new kept em till they busted which is about 200k miles these days then their own actual footprint would be greener than buying the latest motor every two years and thinking they are being green, innit. Well in fairness it is a bit green to be daft enough to blow money on new cars ?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Yeah but no but yeah but if the plonkers who buy em new kept em till they busted which is about 200k miles these days then their own actual footprint would be greener than buying the latest motor every two years and thinking they are being green, innit. Well in fairness it is a bit green to be daft enough to blow money on new cars ?

I saw the perfect green car at the tip last saturday: An old petrol Volvo (I think a V70) about s reg, over 300K on the clock and still working for its living. It was originally finished in rmetallic racing green, but most of that had worn away (good patina.)  Guy who owned it said it "still went like the clappers."  For me it was love at first sight (the car not the bloke.)

[ditchcrawler]

59 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Tim it doesnt matter, they dont get scrapped at 2 years old, they get sold, until eventually you buy it at the end of its life. So you need those idiots to buy new cars and lose thousands on, so you can keep on motoring ?

I did read that most of the tax break semi electric cars never get plugged in to charge them. 

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, catweasel said:

I saw the perfect green car at the tip last saturday: An old petrol Volvo (I think a V70) about s reg, over 300K on the clock and still working for its living. It was originally finished in rmetallic racing green, but most of that had worn away (good patina.)  Guy who owned it said it "still went like the clappers."  For me it was love at first sight (the car not the bloke.)

Yeah but want if it doesnt have parking sensors or " active " cruise control!! 

[system 4-50]

6 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Yeah but want if it doesnt have parking sensors or " active " cruise control!! 

but active cruise control is just lurvely! (now how do I fit it on my bote...)

Edited April 15, 2019 by system 4-50

[mrsmelly]

9 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

but active cruise control is just lurvely! (now how do I fit it on my bote...)

It makes drivers even worse than they are now though innitt. About as much use as a bow thruster.......................pleeeeeeese dont tell me you have one of those ?

[system 4-50]

Just now, mrsmelly said:

It makes drivers even worse than they are now though innitt. About as much use as a bow thruster.......................pleeeeeeese dont tell me you have one of those ?

yes indeed, But I declined the lane assist as I prefer to steer it myself. And the auto box is wonderfull!  The automatic parking however is carp.

[mrsmelly]

3 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

yes indeed, But I declined the lane assist as I prefer to steer it myself. And the auto box is wonderfull!  The automatic parking however is carp.

Is there any other kind? surely people arnt still in the 1950s with 3 pedals and a silly stick ? are you winding me up ?

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Hybrid cars -- even without plug-in charging -- do save some fuel (and have lower C)2 emissions) because the added load of the generator can move the engine up into a higher efficiency region, regenerative braking can produce more energy "for free", and then the resulting stored power can be used for propulsion when the IC engine is shut down.

 

 

The above is only true during town stop/start type driving.

 

On motorways and A road, the fuel consumption is worse because of having to carry the extra weight of the batteries and electric motors, over and above that of an equivalent petrol engined car. The more the car needs to accelerate the bigger the impact on fuel consumption the weight penalty has.