Sailaways with diesel/hybrid engine

[Tumshie]

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The approach to the Caley has a height restriction of 89 feet so we have to be a bit careful and look at the state of the tide as we are 60 foot (+ windy-ometer) air draft.

Yes if you are entering or leaving under the Kessock Bridge it's a must to be aware of the tides in the firth but once you are in the first lock at Seaport the canal is much more mast friendly. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

Yes if you are entering or leaving under the Kessock Bridge it's a must to be aware of the tides in the firth but once you are in the first lock at Seaport the canal is much more mast friendly. 

 

 

115ft IIRC

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, Dearhound said:

Confused! What are you saying? 

I am not sure what Tony Brooks is saying, but I guess he is not convinced by the technology or the umbrella argument that electricity is greener.

You are too young to remember, but we heard a similar story when nuclear power stations were proposed, 2/3p per unit I think we were promise. No mention about the fiasco of Winscale [re-named Sellafield after The Fire] / Chernobyl / Three Mile Island, the perpetual cost and the problem of nuclear waste and so on ............... 

Edited April 14, 2019 by LadyG

[IanD]

Felonious Mongoose (one of the Beta hybrid narrowboats) was on sale recently, could be very nice if it happens to be what the OP is looking for.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Tumshie said:

One could say the same about lithium batteries - ya know just saying 

 

Wholly wrong there. Lithium batteries use less diesel than ordinary batts. Hybrid diesel-electric boat drives use significantly more. 

[Machpoint005]

Why have a "hybrid" propulsion system when all the off-grid energy is derived from a diesel engine anyway?

 

Am I missing something?

[MtB]

 

(More than mechanical gearbox drives, that is!)

Just now, Machpoint005 said:

Why have a "hybrid" propulsion system when all the off-grid energy is derived from a diesel engine anyway?

 

Am I missing something?

 

No you're not missing anything. They are supremely pointless for exactly this reason.

 

 

[Tumshie]

16 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Wholly wrong there. Lithium batteries use less diesel than ordinary batts. Hybrid diesel-electric boat drives use significantly more. 

But they are very complicated new fangled things, aren't they now ?

[LadyG]

17 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

But they are very complicated new fangled things, aren't they now ?

I think you will find some people [like me] could not see the point of digital TV!

Fortunately, my opinion was not widespread.

Out first "portable" computer was the size and weight of a 1954 domestic Singer sewing machine.

Edited April 14, 2019 by LadyG

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

(More than mechanical gearbox drives, that is!)

 

No you're not missing anything. They are supremely pointless for exactly this reason.

 

 

The owners of various parallel hybrids have reported reduced fuel consumption compared to a straight diesel, but the amount saved is never going to make up for the increased cost. The main advantage is the ability to travel in near silence part of the time, especially in locks. But if you spent even a fraction of the added cost on soundproofing and silencing a diesel I suspect you could get it to be almost as quiet without the added complexity...

[IanD]

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Because Beta have stopped supporting them IIRC, not all spares are available and breakdowns have most canalside 'engineers' scratching their heads rather than having a good working knowledge of them.

 

There is another thread on here about it, IIRC.

 

ISTR Beta are, or were, the only firm making them commercially. Or have you found another company? Or am I mistaken? 

 

I think Mike's talking about the Beta propgen which was a constant-rpm 230V ac generator used as a series hybrid or with hydraulic drive, these did have all sorts of issues (including high fuel consumption) and Beta no longer support them.

 

The Hybrid Marine ones are different, they're a parallel hybrid with a 10hp motor-generator coupled to a conventional Beta engine/gearbox via a belt, the diesel can be used as normal or you can run from electric power only, and they use a big 48V battery bank and inverter to provide onboard mains, and fuel consumption is lower than a normal diesel. They're not so different from a normal diesel with big alternators and battery bank/inverter or Travel Power, except that the DC generator can also be used as a motor to drive the boat, and the battery bank/inverter are much bigger to provide a lot more mains power than normal (if you want/need this).

Edited April 14, 2019 by IanD

[peterboat]

6 hours ago, Tumshie said:

I like the idea of them Mike on the other hand not coming round to them any time soon and while I don't like it he does actually have a point. We have talked about this before and I'll find the link for it in a bit. 

 

Toyota are at the moment advertising self charging hybrid cars but it is a bit of a misnomer because the don't self charge the diesel engine just has to work harder to make the electric which rather defeats the purpose and doesn't make them much greener. 

 

 

I think the Toyota range is petrol hybrids, I have two Honda self charging hybrids and both are very economical one is doing 50 plus and the other up to 80mpg both petrols

3 hours ago, Tumshie said:

But they are very complicated new fangled things, aren't they now ?

1997 is when they came out not very new in the way of things

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

(More than mechanical gearbox drives, that is!)

 

No you're not missing anything. They are supremely pointless for exactly this reason.

 

 

What if they have solar?

[BruceinSanity]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

Felonious Mongoose (one of the Beta hybrid narrowboats) was on sale recently, could be very nice if it happens to be what the OP is looking for.

And has less than 1,000 hours on the clock after eight years boating IIRC. But the owner liked to cruise from marina to marina, hooking up to the mains every night.

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

What if they have solar?

Then they might as well go fully electric - have you tried talking to @peterboat ... oh wait!

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Then they might as well go fully electric - have you tried talking to @peterboat ... oh wait!

Yup but for some they are a great alternative. I was at Johnathon Wilsons/Finesse on Friday it would seem that they have a lot of orders for electric boats, they seem to increasing in popularity and Finesse would like to be at the forefront of it

[cuthound]

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Wholly wrong there. Lithium batteries use less diesel than ordinary batts. Hybrid diesel-electric boat drives use significantly more. 

 

Saw an article in a magazine recently that said that with current extraction rates the world's supply of cobalt, (which is needed to give lithium ion batteries their performance and make them stable and safe), will run out before oil. Even sooner if all ICE vehicles are replaced with EV's using lithium ion batteries.

[Guest]

Like many people, we live aboard. It would have to be a good system that would take me away from our humble diesel. When running (obviously) it heats the cabin (4kW of heat), heats the water, charges the batteries very well whilst simultaneously running the fridge, washer and other stuff,  not forgetting pushing the boat along. 
When we are stationary we use the sun as much as possible as well as a small genny for when the sun don't shine. Have used shore power about three times in 15 years.
I can't see the point of a hybrid boat engine right now. We only consume about 1.5 litres of diesel per hour in our NB to do all of the functions above. A CHP system.

[Flyboy]

7 hours ago, Tumshie said:

One could say the same about lithium batteries - ya know just saying 

Lithium batteries are not green as only 5% of their content can be recycled. Lead acid batteries on the other hand, 90% can be  recycled.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Flyboy said:

Lithium batteries are not green as only 5% of their content can be recycled. Lead acid batteries on the other hand, 90% can be  recycled.

 

Quite. 

 

It's the consumption of fossil fuel energy that's the problem. Fussing about the efficiency of the mechanism for using the energy is tinkering with the detail whilst ignoring the root problem. 

 

Solar is good on this front as Pete points out, but I'd say the energy from solar panels is inadequate by a long chalk to power a narrow boat that moves around regularly, except perhaps in high summer.

 

 

[Murflynn]

11 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Saw an article in a magazine recently that said that with current extraction rates the world's supply of cobalt, (which is needed to give lithium ion batteries their performance and make them stable and safe), will run out before oil. Even sooner if all ICE vehicles are replaced with EV's using lithium ion batteries.

they said something similar about oil several decades ago.

fact is that as demand increases mankind finds new ways to locate and extract the world's resources.

some estimates say that there is currently more oil in proven resources than ever before.

there was a time when all the world's steamships were powered by Welsh steam coal - coal had not been discovered in most countries because there had been no historical demand for it.

[Machpoint005]

12 hours ago, Flyboy said:

Lead acid batteries on the other hand, 90% can be  recycled.

And the infrastructure exists for recycling them, and (surprise surprise) it actually happens!

 

1 hour ago, Murflynn said:

some estimates say that there is currently more oil in proven resources than ever before.

 

It's the amount that's recoverable that matters. There is an awful lot of Brent oil still in place but it cannot be extracted. Whether we should extract it is another question.

[peterboat]

13 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Saw an article in a magazine recently that said that with current extraction rates the world's supply of cobalt, (which is needed to give lithium ion batteries their performance and make them stable and safe), will run out before oil. Even sooner if all ICE vehicles are replaced with EV's using lithium ion batteries.

 

12 hours ago, Flyboy said:

Lithium batteries are not green as only 5% of their content can be recycled. Lead acid batteries on the other hand, 90% can be  recycled.

 

11 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Quite. 

 

It's the consumption of fossil fuel energy that's the problem. Fussing about the efficiency of the mechanism for using the energy is tinkering with the detail whilst ignoring the root problem. 

 

Solar is good on this front as Pete points out, but I'd say the energy from solar panels is inadequate by a long chalk to power a narrow boat that moves around regularly, except perhaps in high summer.

 

 

Cobalt is not going to be in batteries in the future, it causes problems, is expensive so batteries are out there already using other metals. As for recycling its happening we had a tread on here about it ages ago, JLR sat they can recycle the batteries, so I know who I believe

[Machpoint005]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

JLR sat they can recycle the batteries, so I know who I believe

 

As has been pointed out on another thread, there is a huge gulf between "can be recycled" and "will be recycled".

It's still not relevant to a diesel hybrid boat propulsion system, which does not save energy and is over-complicating the issue.

 

Now, if we were talking about a hydrogen fuel cell hybrid system ...  

[Flyboy]

13 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 JLR sat they can recycle the batteries, so I know who I believe

JLR would say that as they are selling the vehicles. Where is this recycling plant they say they can recycle the batteries ? I doubt it exists.

[peterboat]

17 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

JLR would say that as they are selling the vehicles. Where is this recycling plant they say they can recycle the batteries ? I doubt it exists.

They have already recycled the batteries of the pre production I paces, so I have no idea where the plant is but given they have factories all over the world it could be anywhere