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garym999

Water Pump Pulley??

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Been a lurker for a while now and found the site a tremendous resource getting me back up to speed with the world of canal boats since my days as a lad with his first weekend job helpping turn around a hire fleet.

 

My sister has purchased a boat as a "live a board" and I have been drawn in. The boat has been getting some long overdue TLC most of which has gone towards the engine as she needs it to be realiable (as much as it can be). This has seen weekend trips chipping away at the engine which is a BMC 1.5D

 

It is slow to crank over and drains the starter battery (new battery and referbed starter motor as part of the purchase). The battery leads where shoddy and have been replaced. Once it gets started it seems to run fine and does not smoke. Occasionally though there has been a squeal and a corresponding drop of engine revs. This happened in the marina the other day and lifting the deck boards revealed a smoking alternator belt.

 

My assumption was a ceasing water pump and that this was binding making the engine hard to crank. So last weekend I went armed with a replacement. Stripping it all down I now think it is the alternator. The pump turns fine by hand and I cannot feel any play or see signs of weeping. The alternator though feels loose and a little rough. There is also belt "jus" all over it. With the belt removed the engine is still slow to crank.

 

There has been some "special" modification to the water pump pulley (which judging by the paint, has been in place since the engine was removed) to move it about 10mm away from the engine to align with crankshaft pully. Special refers to the fact that a washer was placed over the beveled end of the pump shaft and the pully placed on top and bolted on. As you can imagine with no proper support you cannot tighten the bolts with out it gimbling over the end of the shaft. Well done to the previous guy in getting it lined up cos I couldnt. I have demonstrated this set up with the new pump on the bench. The first pic is how it should fit without a spacer the others with. In the same spirt I packed it out on four nuts, a least I could tighten the pulley bolts and it remained square. The boat was still slow to crank but once started ran fine for a 2hr crusie with no squealing.

 

I think the pully has been loose and worn the alternator bearing. So I have stripped out the alternator and starter motor to get them referbed.

 

Now to the question... Any idea why the crankshaft pully might have been packed out assuming it has? I was planing to make a spacer of some kind or do I try and take the crankshaft pully off and investigate further. I'm nervous about the later.

 

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Crank Pulley looks to be in the correct place. I suspect the water pump is the wrong one, or less likely that the water pump pulley is the wrong one. There is more than one pump design, the impellers are of different sizes but as far as I remember the pulley arrangement is exactly the same. Never seen one spaced out. The workshop manual is available free on the internet.

https://www.asap-supplies.com/workshop-repair-manual-bmc-1500-15-diesel-engines

 

Read the other post on BMC1.5D and the similar 1.8D on the forum, most of the problems have already been answered.

 

Squealing belt is possible because its worn thin or wrong and not riding high in the "v" but bottoming in the groove.

 

If the alternator feels rough to turn, its duff, get it overhauled with new bearings .If the battery is low the belt may well scream if not tight due to the heavy load on the alternator.

 

If the engine is slow to crank, its either bad leads and connections, poor battery with a cell down, or starter motor needs overhaul.  Clean all connections and battery terminals.

 

Try another battery, installed not on jump leads. Try using jump leads to double up on the cables installed.

Try a lead of suitable heavy gauge direct from the battery to the motor.

 

Remember that the battery need a good negative return connection to the engine block, check because it could be using control cables and the prop shaft as a ground return, not a good idea! Cable don't last long treated like this.

 

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Crank Pulley looks to be in the correct place. I suspect the water pump is the wrong one, or less likely that the water pump pulley is the wrong one. There is more than one pump design, the impellers are of different sizes but as far as I remember the pulley arrangement is exactly the same. Never seen one spaced out. The workshop manual is available free on the internet.

https://www.asap-supplies.com/workshop-repair-manual-bmc-1500-15-diesel-engines

 

Read the other post on BMC1.5D and the similar 1.8D on the forum, most of the problems have already been answered.

 

Squealing belt is possible because its worn thin or wrong and not riding high in the "v" but bottoming in the groove.

 

If the alternator feels rough to turn, its duff, get it overhauled with new bearings .If the battery is low the belt may well scream if not tight due to the heavy load on the alternator.

 

If the engine is slow to crank, its either bad leads and connections, poor battery with a cell down, or starter motor needs overhaul.  Clean all connections and battery terminals.

 

Try another battery, installed not on jump leads. Try using jump leads to double up on the cables installed.

Try a lead of suitable heavy gauge direct from the battery to the motor.

 

Remember that the battery need a good negative return connection to the engine block, check because it could be using control cables and the prop shaft as a ground return, not a good idea! Cable don't last long treated like this.

 

 

 

On reflection that pulley/pump arrangement look all wrong, what does your new pump look like in comparison. Where that pulley sits is not like any BMC pump shaft I have ever seen.

Both parts could be wrong, other engine pulleys are similar but not the same eg Perkins, Ford.

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Thanks Sam, starter and alternator away for a referb. I assume the belt has just worn cos of misalignment or strain from a poor alternator bearing.

 

As for the pumps I saw that there are different sizes and that the 60mm was the most common. So I purchased one of these. Externally it looks identical to the one installed but did not want to take the pump off to check on the impleller if I did not have too. 

 

The suggestion is that the crank pully has been spaced out. I say this as the alternator has also been packed out. At the yard in the marina was an old 1.5 and the pump pully seems to be same. If you look at the last photo of the crank pully it looks as though there is a plate behind but I'm not sure if that is the case or is normal? I should have checked that on the old engine while I was there.

 

I can't see any signs of it but there could have been an external water pump at some time but then I would have though there would be two crank pullies. There is an internal skin tank and header tank (no longer used) on one side. On the other, is another skin tank this is the one being used with a tap off for a calorifier. All run off the engine pump.

Edited by garym999

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What a monumental bodge.......no wonder the belts squealing......................With a bodge like that ,I be looking for holes in the hull patched with silastic and flattened out jam tins.

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6 minutes ago, john.k said:

What a monumental bodge.......no wonder the belts squealing......................With a bodge like that ,I be looking for holes in the hull patched with silastic and flattened out jam tins.

😉 please I dont want to be going there. What's amazing is that it has obviouly been like it for a long while given the paint.

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It's obviously an old boat and may well have been through a dozen owners who may well have messed with it,in various ways.

It was probably originally direct or indirect raw water cooled and had a Jabsco type water pump fitted,and to line everything up may have involved putting spacers in the pulleys. It is possible to only have one crank pulley operating both the alternator and the external water pump,but the engine pump would need removing and a blanking plate over the orifice for direct raw water cooling.Indirect raw water cooling would need a double crank pulley,one for the external water pump,and the other for the alternator and engine water pump. Never had my crankshaft pulley off,and looking at the online manual,there doesn't appear to be a spacer,so I would assume that if the correct pulley is fitted then everything should line up.

Don't understand why there are two skin tanks,unless one was too small or has no baffles and the engine was overheating. (supposed to have one square foot of cooling area,per four HP) for the BMC 1500 this should be about 8 square feet.

Boater Sam has covered the sluggish starting.

I have owned my boat for two years now,and have just about fixed all the previous owners' bodges!  

 

 

If I did need to remove the crankshaft pulley,I would have to ask this excellent forum; 1,How do I lock the engine up in order to remove the nut,and  2,Is the nut RH or LH thread?

 

 

Edited by Mad Harold

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The unused tank is inside and made up as part of the hull. The other side is external, thats what the pipes suggest as I have not seen the boat out of the water. I guess its always possible that the engine has been changed at sometime too. The header tank has got Calcutt on the side so I guess they did the marinisation of the engine.

 

So do I pack the pump pulley or remove the crank and any packer installed? Is the pulley aligned in anyway, on a keyway etc. cant see from the manual. I'm just worried that the crank pully has been packed to over come some other issue or maybe its not the right one?

 

Two years... going to keep me busy then.

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8 minutes ago, garym999 said:

The unused tank is inside and made up as part of the hull. The other side is external, thats what the pipes suggest as I have not seen the boat out of the water. I guess its always possible that the engine has been changed at sometime too. The header tank has got Calcutt on the side so I guess they did the marinisation of the engine.

 

So do I pack the pump pulley or remove the crank and any packer installed? Is the pulley aligned in anyway, on a keyway etc. cant see from the manual. I'm just worried that the crank pully has been packed to over come some other issue or maybe its not the right one?

 

Two years... going to keep me busy then.

Download the manual RTFI.  crank pulley is one big bolt, normal RH thread and a key shared with the crank timing chain sprocket.

Investigate the crank pulley, I can see no spacer and if it was spaced out it would miss the key and spin free on the crank if the bolt was not daft tight, nah, it would not work spaced out.

 

The water pump must be a  wrong one, only logical solution unless the belt has run miles out of alignment which is crazy. Does the alternator line up properly with either or both the other pulleys?

44 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

It's obviously an old boat and may well have been through a dozen owners who may well have messed with it,in various ways.

It was probably originally direct or indirect raw water cooled and had a Jabsco type water pump fitted,and to line everything up may have involved putting spacers in the pulleys. It is possible to only have one crank pulley operating both the alternator and the external water pump,but the engine pump would need removing and a blanking plate over the orifice for direct raw water cooling.Indirect raw water cooling would need a double crank pulley,one for the external water pump,and the other for the alternator and engine water pump. Never had my crankshaft pulley off,and looking at the online manual,there doesn't appear to be a spacer,so I would assume that if the correct pulley is fitted then everything should line up.

Don't understand why there are two skin tanks,unless one was too small or has no baffles and the engine was overheating. (supposed to have one square foot of cooling area,per four HP) for the BMC 1500 this should be about 8 square feet.

Boater Sam has covered the sluggish starting.

I have owned my boat for two years now,and have just about fixed all the previous owners' bodges!  

 

 

If I did need to remove the crankshaft pulley,I would have to ask this excellent forum; 1,How do I lock the engine up in order to remove the nut,and  2,Is the nut RH or LH thread?

 

 

Agree its had at least water injection into the exhaust if not full fresh water cooling, wonder if there is a tube stack heat exchanger  in the exhaust cooling chamber/ header?

 

As above RH thread bolt,  remove starter motor to lock flywheel by a bar in the starter ring teeth. The bolt is tight, 80  ft/lbs if I remember right

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15 minutes ago, garym999 said:

The unused tank is inside and made up as part of the hull. The other side is external, thats what the pipes suggest as I have not seen the boat out of the water. I guess its always possible that the engine has been changed at sometime too. The header tank has got Calcutt on the side so I guess they did the marinisation of the engine.

 

So do I pack the pump pulley or remove the crank and any packer installed? Is the pulley aligned in anyway, on a keyway etc. cant see from the manual. I'm just worried that the crank pully has been packed to over come some other issue or maybe its not the right one?

 

Two years... going to keep me busy then.

The crankshaft pulley is fitted with a keyway.

 

The crankshaft pulley LOOKS standard to me except I suspect it should be thicker because it should be a torsional oscillation damper with a rubber insert between the groove section and boss. Not 100% sure on this so would want to see the front of the pulley. The flywheel part is from memory towards the front, not the back. Can a BMC 1.5 owner confirm.  This just might be a petrol engine pulley.

Never had to pack a water pump pulley but have had to pack an alternator but only by a washer or two.

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2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

The crankshaft pulley is fitted with a keyway.

 

The crankshaft pulley LOOKS standard to me except I suspect it should be thicker because it should be a torsional oscillation damper with a rubber insert between the groove section and boss. Not 100% sure on this so would want to see the front of the pulley. The flywheel part is from memory towards the front, not the back. Can a BMC 1.5 owner confirm.  This just might be a petrol engine pulley.

Never had to pack a water pump pulley but have had to pack an alternator but only by a washer or two.

Good thought Tony, I forgot about the damper that sticks out, too used to seeing the 1.8 pulley.

It could be a petrol engine pulley but the belt groove looks to be in the right place, its very odd.

If the OP downloads the manual he may be able to decide.

 

There may be some sense in asking Calcutt, it just might be a conversion of theirs for raw water cooling that has been left in place.

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Ok so the crank pulley should come off and is aligned by a keyway. If it is keyed could it have been put on the wrong way around? The alternator has been packed too. Everything is forward by about 10mm.

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Don't know about a Calcutt raw water system but Tempest and (forgotten the name) just blanked the water pump with a blanking plate with a raw water connection in the centre. The Jabsco pump was driven by the  crankshaft pulley. On some there was an extra smaller crankshaft pulley bolted to the front of the usual one.

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7 minutes ago, garym999 said:

Ok so the crank pulley should come off and is aligned by a keyway. If it is keyed could it have been put on the wrong way around? The alternator has been packed too. Everything is forward by about 10mm.

 

No, you can not fit the pulley backwards because the timing cover oil seal runs on an extension that is part of it and it holds the crankshaft timing gear on the shaft.

 

It looks like  a damper pulley.

 

I bet its the wrong water pump. Thee have been three bolt ones. I am not sure how different the diesel one is to petrol ones but the pulleys all look similar.

 

Don't like the butchery in the front of the shaft and nut though.

Edited by Tony Brooks

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Thanks all. I have just had a conversation with Calcutt and they concurr that it could be the wrong water pump or flywheel the forma being the most likely. They also said that people do alsorts make the pumps fit including changing the bosses. etc. They said take the pump off and have a measure.

 

If it were the wrong water pump though why would the alternator need spacing too?

 

Either way looks like I'm consingned to another coulpe of visits. There is an old engine at the yard so now I armed with the info here I shall have a look around it with a more educated eye and take some measurements.

 

 

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Your crank pulley doesn't look like mine. So,either your's is wrong or mine is!   And, mine doesn't have any extra bolt holes in it.Just the centre bolt.

20180203_135655_resized.jpg

Edited by Mad Harold

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8 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Your crank pulley doesn't look like mine. So,either your's is wrong or mine is!   And, mine doesn't have any extra bolt holes in it.Just the centre bolt.

20180203_135655_resized.jpg

Yours is a less common one

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Cracked it!!!!!!

 

 

The reason it all looks wrong is that the crank pulley is off the 1.8d engine,  I am almost certain! The 1.8 is much larger than the 1.5 and the damper is flush with the pulley face, which is what you have. 

This may all have been done to increase the speed of the alternator to increase the charging but its a cock up.

 

I think you need a new water pump, the right one for the engine and a 1.5D crank pulley. Take all the packings out and replace with a fan belt that fits, it will be smaller.

The bolt is not original., I suspect it may of had a pulley on it to drive a fresh water pump, get a new bolt too.

 

Line them all up so the belt runs true, job done.

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It's not that uncommon to find the 1.8 pulley on a 1.5

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The displaced 1.8D pulley has a good resale value, they are quite expensive and get damaged when folk take an engine out. They also crack on the keyway.

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2 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

The displaced 1.8D pulley has a good resale value, they are quite expensive and get damaged when folk take an engine out. They also crack on the keyway.

They do, which is why some time ago I collected up all the pulleys on the BMC engines in our distress pile. 1.5 and 1.8, they all have the same pulley  - the big one with the rubber damper

 

Richard

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13 minutes ago, RLWP said:

They do, which is why some time ago I collected up all the pulleys on the BMC engines in our distress pile. 1.5 and 1.8, they all have the same pulley  - the big one with the rubber damper

 

Richard

Hi Richard so appart from thier dia (do you happen to know what it is so I can measure) do they have a different belt projection? If they do and it is fairly common place what is done about the water pump?

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13 minutes ago, garym999 said:

Hi Richard so appart from thier dia (do you happen to know what it is so I can measure) do they have a different belt projection? If they do and it is fairly common place what is done about the water pump?

As has been pointed out already, there are several different water pumps for that engine, and you've probably got the wrong one

 

I have a feeling I have come across a spacer behind a water pump pulley before, a proper disk with four holes for the bolts

 

Richard

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The wrong water pump is what the combined consensus is appearing to be and at the moment with the quality of the bodge found, I could expect anything. But there are also spacers on the alternator so that is why I'm thinking there is something else been done with the crank pulley.

 

Hopefully I'll be back to the boat next weekend

Edited by garym999

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Just now, garym999 said:

The wrong water pump is what the combined consensus is appearing to be and at the moment with the quality of the bodge found, I could expect anything. But there are also spacers on the alternator so that is why I'm thinking there is something else been done with the crank pulley.

 

 

Your supposition is that a part that is very hard to remove and is a fundamental part of the engine has been bodged, rather than a universal alternator having to be adapted and an incorrect spare fitted?

It's very unlikely

 

Richard

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