Prop gen system removal

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I have a beta marine engine with a prop gen.the generator was powered by the crank pulley via a shaft and was famed for the pulley becoming loose and damaging the crank shaft. I have removed the generator and the shaft drive. I am now left with an engine which is controlled by an exspensive relay which operates a solenoid valve which operates on the deisel pump lever to run at 1000rpm or 1500rpm only.the prm 500 gearbox has a trolling feathering device which has a potentiometer controlled by the cable which would normally be connected to the diesel pump lever to control the throttle the feathering device controls the speed of the propshaft from zero the 750rpm.would anyone know how to and if possible or has anyone already taken off the the trolling feather system and converted the throttle to run off the cable like a normal boat.I will contact Beta if need be for there advice but have been already waiting weeks for a return email regarding parts 

[Boater Sam]

If you PM me I can give you the details of a Beta engineer who knows his stuff. Sam

[mrsmelly]

10 minutes ago, chevron said:

I have a beta marine engine with a prop gen.the generator was powered by the crank pulley via a shaft and was famed for the pulley becoming loose and damaging the crank shaft. I have removed the generator and the shaft drive. I am now left with an engine which is controlled by an exspensive relay which operates a solenoid valve which operates on the deisel pump lever to run at 1000rpm or 1500rpm only.the prm 500 gearbox has a trolling feathering device which has a potentiometer controlled by the cable which would normally be connected to the diesel pump lever to control the throttle the feathering device controls the speed of the propshaft from zero the 750rpm.would anyone know how to and if possible or has anyone already taken off the the trolling feather system and converted the throttle to run off the cable like a normal boat.I will contact Beta if need be for there advice but have been already waiting weeks for a return email regarding parts 

A friend had this very system. He ended up removing the entire unit and replacing with standard stuff.

[Iain_S]

The Linlithgow Canal Society trip boat had this system, complete with the 1000 rpm and 1500 rpm positions, changed by a green button. It was modified by the skippers with a bit of string to the throttle lever to give engine speeds between 1000 and 1500, as insufficient progress was made at 1000 rpm, and over use of the trolling valve at 1500 rpm caused the gearbox oil to overheat and lose oil through the breather, which made things worse until all drive was lost.

 

The solenoid was removed, and the Morse control was connected to the throttle lever. I seem to remember that a bracket had to be made to secure the outer of the Morse cable, but it was quite a few years ago, so memory might be playing up. We left the generator in place, as it was only used for heating water and the AC frequency was not important. The trolling valve was connected to the throttle cable so that the first bit of movement on the Morse lever operated the trolling valve. Can't remember the details of that bit, but I dont see any reason why the trolling valve couldn't be left permanently engaged. If you havere moved the generator, the idle speed could be reduced from 1000 rpm to 800 or so. 

[MtB]

A perfect example of why it is always so much better to buy ordinary conventional mainstream engineering for which spare parts are available over the counter and which yer average yard engineer understands easily.

 

No help to the OP though, I'm afraid...

[OldGoat]

Quote

 

What's happening at Beta? The used to be so responsive and helpful...

Perhaps a phone call might get better results, or have they become mere box shifters???

[MtB]

2 hours ago, OldGoat said:

What's happening at Beta? The used to be so responsive and helpful...

Perhaps a phone call might get better results, or have they become mere box shifters???

 

Either....

 

1) The bloke who designed the Prop Gen has left or retired, and there is no-one there now who knows anything about them,

 

or...

 

2) The OP's email was sent in the same writing style as his OP here and Beta just deleted it as with little punctuation and no paragraphs, like me they found it too hard to understand. 

[mrsmelly]

2 hours ago, OldGoat said:

What's happening at Beta? The used to be so responsive and helpful...

Perhaps a phone call might get better results, or have they become mere box shifters???

When they brought this contraption out they quickly realised their mistake. They spent many hours trying to rectify the problems for customers before basicaly withdrawing the product/project. My pal a boatbuilder/fitter used to fit them but quickly stopped, he had one in his own liveaboard but after struggling with it for quite a few years he skipped the lot and fitted an Isuzu with a prm 160. Funnily enough he also used to fit diesel stoves but after a few short years he now has a squirrel multi fuel stove on his own liveaboard.

[Boater Sam]

Your pal rectified both his earlier mistakes then.

Trolling valve was a disaster, I know no one who is happy with it. and diesel stoves are the pits, seen so many ripped out as unworkable.

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Sorry Mike about opening grammar but just wanted to get all the detail of the system on paper for those who have not heard of the system, the boat when new was sold as a gassless boat all singing electrics. Guess what it has a bubble stove with a large bore 28mm loop pipe for heating with no pump on it, when we bought the boat that was the one item we believed we would have trouble with and would be removing it’s been the best thing ever very cheap to run no mess. So if I can get this boat back to normal set up I will be very happy. As for Beta filled in the form for parts with the numbers they require to identify the unit received an email saying they have received it then nothing. I have had good service from Beta from there technical team in the passed but everything is very slow without you chasing them.

[mrsmelly]

23 minutes ago, chevron said:

Sorry Mike about opening grammar but just wanted to get all the detail of the system on paper for those who have not heard of the system, the boat when new was sold as a gassless boat all singing electrics. Guess what it has a bubble stove with a large bore 28mm loop pipe for heating with no pump on it, when we bought the boat that was the one item we believed we would have trouble with and would be removing it’s been the best thing ever very cheap to run no mess. So if I can get this boat back to normal set up I will be very happy. As for Beta filled in the form for parts with the numbers they require to identify the unit received an email saying they have received it then nothing. I have had good service from Beta from there technical team in the passed but everything is very slow without you chasing them.

Ahh, gasless as well. At least it will have been cheap then.

[GUMPY]

If I understand the system correctly its just a matter of changing the injector pump for a "normal" one.

Prm 500 with a trolling valve is a good gearbox and the base engine is a standard beta unit so again a good engine.

Friend of mine had PRM with the valve on his barge it meant it could be propped for river and coastal work but still go slow enough to plod up the GU.

 

Has the boat had a name change? If so what was it originally as a couple of us on here knew a boat with that setup.

Bloody annoying when you pass a moored boat and they think you are speeding because of the engine revs

 

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by Loddon

[Eeyore]

The gearbox should be fairly straightforward.

The current trolling option from Beta looks like this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its going to be different to yours, but serves to identify the connections. The only two hoses you will need are the flow and return to and from the oil cooler, the layout of the oil cooler hoses is in the PRM 500 user manual. Anything else needs to be properly blanked off using original parts (plugs) from PRM. The spill return fitting in the above illustration is an additional hole in the top cover, yours may be elsewhere, but still needs blanking off. Electrically you will need to identify the wiring to the safety switch; which I believe is functionally the same as a neutral interlock which prevents the engine being started in gear. You will need access to the wiring diagram to confirm this. You can add the optional neutral interlock switch, or short the connections together if not; but only after checking the wiring diagram.

The engine end is mechanically as simple as providing an anchor point for the outer of the throttle cable. Electrically I'm going to "bottle it" and say that a standard Beta wiring harness is the easy way to go; although removing a few solenoids and making good on the wiring doesn't sound too bad - does it?

Edited April 3, 2019 by Eeyore

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Thanks for the reply Eeyore that helps I have also a message which after a telephone call has made me believe its possible to convert back to a normal set up

[chevron]

Just an update to removing system off my boat. I have now managed to remove the system off the boat after the helpful comments off the forum and a phone call with someone boater Sam recommended. The trolling valve came straight off looping the pipe back to the gearbox only thing needed was a blanking plug for an oil return pipe at the gearbox. A bracket was made to connect the throttle to the pump and with a little bit of fiddling the boat now idles at 800rpm and will rev to 1,700 rpm. The wiring seems to have been aftermarket fitment to the beta build and the loom for the trolling valve came out easily once the feed wire was removed. I have had the boat five years and on driving it without the trolling valve it steers and drives so much better. With the trolling valve fitted you had to run the boat at 1,500 rpm now just above idle is three mph. There is a different controller for without trolling valve on the gearbox but if seems fine on the one fitted at the moment also when I get the number off the prop crowthers have said they will advise over the prop, as I was warned that it might struggle or be over propped.

[Boater Sam]

1 hour ago, chevron said:

Just an update to removing system off my boat. I have now managed to remove the system off the boat after the helpful comments off the forum and a phone call with someone boater Sam recommended. The trolling valve came straight off looping the pipe back to the gearbox only thing needed was a blanking plug for an oil return pipe at the gearbox. A bracket was made to connect the throttle to the pump and with a little bit of fiddling the boat now idles at 800rpm and will rev to 1,700 rpm. The wiring seems to have been aftermarket fitment to the beta build and the loom for the trolling valve came out easily once the feed wire was removed. I have had the boat five years and on driving it without the trolling valve it steers and drives so much better. With the trolling valve fitted you had to run the boat at 1,500 rpm now just above idle is three mph. There is a different controller for without trolling valve on the gearbox but if seems fine on the one fitted at the moment also when I get the number off the prop crowthers have said they will advise over the prop, as I was warned that it might struggle or be over propped.

Glad that you have made the change successfully, it must feel like a new boat.

Chris is a good guy, always helpful.

It does sound to be slightly over propped but you may find after a while that you prefer it that way rather than the engine revving all the time.

Could you reduce the tick over a little, the tacho could be reading a bit high anyway?

Sam.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, chevron said:

Just an update to removing system off my boat.

I have twin PRM 500's on my boat.

Here is the workshop manual which may be of some use to you in the future.

 

 

PRM 500 Workshop Manual.pdf

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The idle speed seems to be as low as I am going to get it Sam it goes in gear without any clunks or rattles which on internet searches seems to be a known problem with these box also some searching on the internet say that you set them at 800rpm in gear they sell kits to make it a soft change which look like little water accumulators which act as a delay when going in gear. It is a 100% improvement wish I had done this when I bought the boat.

[Boater Sam]

The PRM 160, 260, 280 and 500 shouldn't engage with a clunk but the hydraulic accumulators do make for a lovely soft gear change especially from forward to reverse if it is done a bit quickly.

Any rattle on engagement is likely to be drive plate slop.

I could never get my head around the trolling valve, it seems foreign to me to do that to clutches. I had experience of one of these cocooned units on a gasless boat, it was horrible, 1500 revs to brew up and the constant engine noise when moving, not for me.

Sam.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Boater Sam
added more

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

The PRM 160, 260, 280 and 500 shouldn't engage with a clunk but the hydraulic accumulators do make for a lovely soft gear change especially from forward to reverse if it is done a bit quickly.

Any rattle on engagement is likely to be drive plate slop.

I could never get my head around the trolling valve, it seems foreign to me to do that to clutches. I had experience of one of these cocooned units on a gasless boat, it was horrible, 1500 revs to brew up and the constant engine noise when moving, not for me.

Sam.

I used to wonder if they would be a good idea, but from what I have read (including here) it seems not. I have heard of people being accused of speeding past moored boats with these engines, when they had in fact shut right down (psychology in action.)
I have never quite understood what a trolling valve does. Is it like slipping the clutch on a car?

Must say our 160 goes into drive beautifully when compared to the previous crash gear box. It has made it a different boat.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Guest

[Boater Sam]

As I understand it, yes it slips the clutches. As to how they survive this treatment I have no idea, not my idea of good engineering.

The speeding and engine tone problem came home to me at Cropredy one year. A passing boat, engine revving, passed and I watched the doubled mooring pins tear out.

I challenged the guy for going unreasonably fast, he slammed into reverse and started this silly explanation about his engine revs. He was quite taken aback when I said yes I understand that you have a Beta cocooned unit but you were still going too fast. He was, there were lots of boats moored for the Fairport Convention on the soft banks after Mill Bridge.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

As I understand it, yes it slips the clutches. As to how they survive this treatment I have no idea, not my idea of good engineering.

The speeding and engine tone problem came home to me at Cropredy one year. A passing boat, engine revving, passed and I watched the doubled mooring pins tear out.

I challenged the guy for going unreasonably fast, he slammed into reverse and started this silly explanation about his engine revs. He was quite taken aback when I said yes I understand that you have a Beta cocooned unit but you were still going too fast. He was, there were lots of boats moored for the Fairport Convention on the soft banks after Mill Bridge.

Thanks for explanation.

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, catweasel said:

I used to wonder if they would be a good idea, but from what I have read (including here) it seems not. I have heard of people being accused of speeding past moored boats with these engines, when they had in fact shut right down (psychology in action.)
I have never quite understood what a trolling valve does. Is it like slipping the clutch on a car?

Must say our 160 goes into drive beautifully when compared to the previous crash gear box. It has made it a different boat.

A trolling valve is an adjustable pressure-regulating device incorporated in the hydraulic system of the transmission that allows the pressure to be regulated between 0 and full operating pressure (typically between 250 and 400 PSI). In the trolling mode, you reduce the pressure to allow slippage between these multiple disk clutches/plates and now, this multiple disk “friction clutch” becomes a multiple disk “oil shear clutch”. Most transmissions have very strict guidelines when using the trolling mode and these typically advise not to use them above 1000 rpm or so. Most “trolling” takes place between 25 and 75 PSI. During the trolling mode, there is a small oil film between these clutch disks and in theory the slippage that occurs is actually just shearing oil between two rotating surfaces. Excess oil is pumped to these clutch disks and the heat that is generated during this slipping process is transmitted into the oil and dissipated through the cooling circuit of the transmission. Oil shear clutches are very popular in many different industries and when used according to the guidelines, offer long-term no-maintenance performance. Should you exceed rated rpms, major damage can occur very quickly, as the oil film (or shearing process) will break down and cause extreme wear and heat within the disks themselves.

 

https://www.sbmar.com/articles/marine-transmission-trolling-valve/

[Boater Sam]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A trolling valve is an adjustable pressure-regulating device incorporated in the hydraulic system of the transmission that allows the pressure to be regulated between 0 and full operating pressure (typically between 250 and 400 PSI). In the trolling mode, you reduce the pressure to allow slippage between these multiple disk clutches/plates and now, this multiple disk “friction clutch” becomes a multiple disk “oil shear clutch”. Most transmissions have very strict guidelines when using the trolling mode and these typically advise not to use them above 1000 rpm or so. Most “trolling” takes place between 25 and 75 PSI. During the trolling mode, there is a small oil film between these clutch disks and in theory the slippage that occurs is actually just shearing oil between two rotating surfaces. Excess oil is pumped to these clutch disks and the heat that is generated during this slipping process is transmitted into the oil and dissipated through the cooling circuit of the transmission. Oil shear clutches are very popular in many different industries and when used according to the guidelines, offer long-term no-maintenance performance. Should you exceed rated rpms, major damage can occur very quickly, as the oil film (or shearing process) will break down and cause extreme wear and heat within the disks themselves.

 

https://www.sbmar.com/articles/marine-transmission-trolling-valve/

Thank you Alan for that comprehensive reply, learning today. Going now for the GP.

Sam.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A trolling valve is an adjustable pressure-regulating device incorporated in the hydraulic system of the transmission that allows the pressure to be regulated between 0 and full operating pressure (typically between 250 and 400 PSI). In the trolling mode, you reduce the pressure to allow slippage between these multiple disk clutches/plates and now, this multiple disk “friction clutch” becomes a multiple disk “oil shear clutch”. Most transmissions have very strict guidelines when using the trolling mode and these typically advise not to use them above 1000 rpm or so. Most “trolling” takes place between 25 and 75 PSI. During the trolling mode, there is a small oil film between these clutch disks and in theory the slippage that occurs is actually just shearing oil between two rotating surfaces. Excess oil is pumped to these clutch disks and the heat that is generated during this slipping process is transmitted into the oil and dissipated through the cooling circuit of the transmission. Oil shear clutches are very popular in many different industries and when used according to the guidelines, offer long-term no-maintenance performance. Should you exceed rated rpms, major damage can occur very quickly, as the oil film (or shearing process) will break down and cause extreme wear and heat within the disks themselves.

 

https://www.sbmar.com/articles/marine-transmission-trolling-valve/

Thanks that is a very clear description.