Engine won't turn off.

[Markinaboat]

Hi,

 

Picking up on this thread as broken down on the Oxford at Kings Sutton lock. JD3, 1000 hrs on, been running fine since Harefield three weeks ago. Just stopped. Interestingly, every so often if I brush against the key, the engine cuts out. The wires at the rear all appear to be ok but wondered if this wiring on the starter key (in panel) is what the above refers to? I checked the fuel to the pump union inlet and fuel flowed, albeit not very much but maybe that's how they are. RCR are calling me in the morning to let me know when they can attend so would be good to know what parts they may need to bring.

 

I couldn't find anything that resembled the fuel solenoid but there is a black wire going to nut on the top of the pump (Stanadyne DB2). I checked this with my meter and it showed 11.01v?

 

I changed the fuel filter less than 100 hrs ago and keep a full tank with diesel fuel complete in. Haven't removed the filter as if it is blocked, not much I can do anyway as no spare.

 

If the issue is the electrical fuel shut-off (solenoid), is it possible to over-ride this somehow?

 

Sorry if this is disjointed but it's been a long day and still recovering from 5 days in a dry dock last week having the hydraulic thruster repaired and £800 lighter.

 

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Markinaboat
typos

[Tony Brooks]

So what engine or injection pump type. My guess is Ford XLD and a rotary pump ex vehicle but there is an of chance it might be a BMC 1.8, again ex vehicle. Cant think of anything else that might have a Stanadyne pump. The image I found shows a rotary pump for a six cylinder so unlikely to be that.

 

The thing with the black wire sounds like the stop solenoid and if it is an ex vehicle engine it is likely to be an energise to run rather than energise to stop so it sounds as if when you joggle the switch it breaks contact and de-energises the solenoid. I would suspect a faulty switch, especially a you only have 11 volts on a terminal that should have battery voltage on it. That indicates resistance in the circuit somewhere so it makes the switch a potential candidate but there are others like a large multi-plug in the main harness - if you boat has one.

[frangar]

12 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

So what engine or injection pump type. My guess is Ford XLD and a rotary pump ex vehicle but there is an of chance it might be a BMC 1.8, again ex vehicle. Cant think of anything else that might have a Stanadyne pump. The image I found shows a rotary pump for a six cylinder so unlikely to be that.

 

The thing with the black wire sounds like the stop solenoid and if it is an ex vehicle engine it is likely to be an energise to run rather than energise to stop so it sounds as if when you joggle the switch it breaks contact and de-energises the solenoid. I would suspect a faulty switch, especially a you only have 11 volts on a terminal that should have battery voltage on it. That indicates resistance in the circuit somewhere so it makes the switch a potential candidate but there are others like a large multi-plug in the main harness - if you boat has one.

He says it’s a JD3...I think that’s the one based on a John Deere tractor engine..quasi vintage Beta. 

[Stephen Jeavons]

All this complication?

My Mercedes OM601 has a bowden cable which mechanically pulls the shut-off lever on the injector from a Tee-bar like an old-school bonnet catch. Simply pull it and she dies. Push back in to go again. No electrics needed ?

No doubt the van the engine came from had electric gizmos but the engine installer on the boat decided to make life simple. (The rest of it is a dog's breakfast but we won't talk about that)

[Chewbacka]

If the problem is the engine cuts out if I brush against the key, then almost certainly it’s a faulty key switch.  Maybe badly eroded or dirty contacts or the spring holding the contacts together is too weak.

 

I am thinking that an electric lift pump if it lost it’s supply wouldn’t stop the engine immediately.  The other would be the stop solenoid, which would need to be energised to run.  If you have 11v at the solenoid when the engine is running that would also indicate it is an energised to run arrangement.  The low voltage would also indicate faulty switch contacts almost certainly in the key switch, given that the engine cuts out when brushing the key.

 

So I agree with Tony above.  I would measure the volts across the key switch contacts which with clean closed contacts should be almost zero, waggle the key and see if the volts jump about.

[Bod]

How many keys are on the ring with the boat ignition key?

I have known ignition switches, wrecked by the shear weight of excess keys/fobs etc. hanging from them.

The cork ball type fobs will only float 1 key, not the Pentonville Warders collections that are often seen.

 

Bod

[dmr]

21 hours ago, Markinaboat said:

Hi,

 

Picking up on this thread as broken down on the Oxford at Kings Sutton lock. JD3, 1000 hrs on, been running fine since Harefield three weeks ago. Just stopped. Interestingly, every so often if I brush against the key, the engine cuts out. The wires at the rear all appear to be ok but wondered if this wiring on the starter key (in panel) is what the above refers to? I checked the fuel to the pump union inlet and fuel flowed, albeit not very much but maybe that's how they are. RCR are calling me in the morning to let me know when they can attend so would be good to know what parts they may need to bring.

 

I couldn't find anything that resembled the fuel solenoid but there is a black wire going to nut on the top of the pump (Stanadyne DB2). I checked this with my meter and it showed 11.01v?

 

I changed the fuel filter less than 100 hrs ago and keep a full tank with diesel fuel complete in. Haven't removed the filter as if it is blocked, not much I can do anyway as no spare.

 

If the issue is the electrical fuel shut-off (solenoid), is it possible to over-ride this somehow?

 

Sorry if this is disjointed but it's been a long day and still recovering from 5 days in a dry dock last week having the hydraulic thruster repaired and £800 lighter.

 

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Are you sorted out yet?

 

The wire to the top of the injection pump is the "energise to run" solenoid and there is no way to over-ride it. 11 volts is a bit low but should be ok. If you turn the ignition on and off and put your ear close to the pump then you should hear the solenoid click. I believe the Stanadyne solenoid to be very reliable.

 

...........Dave

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, dmr said:

Are you sorted out yet?

 

The wire to the top of the injection pump is the "energise to run" solenoid and there is no way to over-ride it. 11 volts is a bit low but should be ok. If you turn the ignition on and off and put your ear close to the pump then you should hear the solenoid click. I believe the Stanadyne solenoid to be very reliable.

 

...........Dave

 

Well thee is but then you could not stop it.

 

If you have an old solenoid and remove the armature(valve) or if you can get a short set screw with the same thread fitting either so there is nothing to stop the fuel flow through the pump should allow it to run (but not stop)  but far better to sort it out. Almost certain its electrical and the switch is highly suspect.

[dmr]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Well thee is but then you could not stop it.

 

If you have an old solenoid and remove the armature(valve) or if you can get a short set screw with the same thread fitting either so there is nothing to stop the fuel flow through the pump should allow it to run (but not stop)  but far better to sort it out. Almost certain its electrical and the switch is highly suspect.

The Stanadyne solenoid is not like that, its completely inside the injection pump and directly linked to the governor/metering valve, so in effect creates a zero fuel demand rather than shutting off the fuel supply. Stanadyne pumps are fussy things but got very popular because they can do some clever things to help meet emissions regs. I feel they are equivalent to the final generation of carburettors and mechanical distributors in petrol engines, a final shot at a mechanical solution before giving up and going electronic (common rail)

 

.............Dave

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, dmr said:

The Stanadyne solenoid is not like that, its completely inside the injection pump and directly linked to the governor/metering valve, so in effect creates a zero fuel demand rather than shutting off the fuel supply. Stanadyne pumps are fussy things but got very popular because they can do some clever things to help meet emissions regs. I feel they are equivalent to the final generation of carburettors and mechanical distributors in petrol engines, a final shot at a mechanical solution before giving up and going electronic (common rail)

 

.............Dave

Thanks Dave. I have always tried to avoid Stannadyne pumps and they were not around when I was on the tools. I have not found much online detail info about them.

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Thanks Dave. I have always tried to avoid Stannadyne pumps and they were not around when I was on the tools. I have not found much online detail info about them.

There's loads of stuff on the www about them, including history and guides to how they work. They played a huge role in the popularisation of the medium and smaller diesel engine. They are more common in America than here and the JD3 (John Deere) is an American design. I suspect they are less common here because CAV effectively used the same concept under a licencing scheme. They can't be too bad because JCB use them on some of their engines.

 

DIY repairs are not really viable which is a pain, though a few people do give it a go.

 

............Dave

[Markinaboat]

13 hours ago, dmr said:

There's loads of stuff on the www about them, including history and guides to how they work. They played a huge role in the popularisation of the medium and smaller diesel engine. They are more common in America than here and the JD3 (John Deere) is an American design. I suspect they are less common here because CAV effectively used the same concept under a licencing scheme. They can't be too bad because JCB use them on some of their engines.

 

DIY repairs are not really viable which is a pain, though a few people do give it a go.

 

............Dave

Thanks everyone for your valuable input.

 

So, whilst this intermittent 'knock the key and it may stop' exists, I have/had a fair amount of water in the fuel and it had started to emulsify. RCR sent Keith Duffy who was amazing so up and running now. Fitting a missing O-ring seal to the filler later and getting the Fuelgard I got for my previous boat (but thankfully never fitted!) fitted tomorrow. Will also be getting a local guy to remove any water still in the tank.

 

With regards to the 11 volts, connecting a direct 12v supply would activate the solenoid in an emergency to keep the valve open. However, have attached a screenshot of info I fund online. Could it be that 12v or more could damage the unit?

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, Markinaboat said:

Thanks everyone for your valuable input.

 

So, whilst this intermittent 'knock the key and it may stop' exists, I have/had a fair amount of water in the fuel and it had started to emulsify. RCR sent Keith Duffy who was amazing so up and running now. Fitting a missing O-ring seal to the filler later and getting the Fuelgard I got for my previous boat (but thankfully never fitted!) fitted tomorrow. Will also be getting a local guy to remove any water still in the tank.

 

With regards to the 11 volts, connecting a direct 12v supply would activate the solenoid in an emergency to keep the valve open. However, have attached a screenshot of info I fund online. Could it be that 12v or more could damage the unit?

 

 

 

 

 

That sounds needlessly complicated to diagnose your problem and the 11 volts. Any solenoid designed for an energise to run 12V system must be able to remain reliable at the maximum charging voltage so say 15 volts unless an ECU is involved that controls the fuel flow by pulsing the stop control or controlling some form of voltage reducing circuit. However with no ECU on the engine I can't see that being an issue.

 

The symptoms suggest that your solenoid is being de-energised when you joggle the key so the easiest way to check this is to put a voltmeter between the solenoid positive and negative (probably the case or engine block). Turn the key on and note the voltage, it should be at or very close to the battery voltage. Now deliberately joggle the key and see what happens. If the voltmeter jumps about then you have a good indication the switch is at fault. If it stays steady then the problem is something else. That 11 volts could be accounted for by an undersized feed cable but the data in your screen shot implies there should be no problem running it at 11 volts.

[Chewbacka]

The pull in test is simply to confirm that the solenoid will work from about 10v as you need the solenoid to operate even with a low battery.  

 

Added - even with water in your fuel, if the engine stops when you jiggle the key, that problem is not related to fuel quality.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Chewbacka

[Markinaboat]

23 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

The pull in test is simply to confirm that the solenoid will work from about 10v as you need the solenoid to operate even with a low battery.  

 

Added - even with water in your fuel, if the engine stops when you jiggle the key, that problem is not related to fuel quality.

Added - even with water in your fuel, if the engine stops when you jiggle the key, that problem is not related to fuel quality.

I can of know that one! ?

[Markinaboat]

On 04/09/2019 at 10:52, Tony Brooks said:

 

That sounds needlessly complicated to diagnose your problem and the 11 volts. Any solenoid designed for an energise to run 12V system must be able to remain reliable at the maximum charging voltage so say 15 volts unless an ECU is involved that controls the fuel flow by pulsing the stop control or controlling some form of voltage reducing circuit. However with no ECU on the engine I can't see that being an issue.

 

The symptoms suggest that your solenoid is being de-energised when you joggle the key so the easiest way to check this is to put a voltmeter between the solenoid positive and negative (probably the case or engine block). Turn the key on and note the voltage, it should be at or very close to the battery voltage. Now deliberately joggle the key and see what happens. If the voltmeter jumps about then you have a good indication the switch is at fault. If it stays steady then the problem is something else. That 11 volts could be accounted for by an undersized feed cable but the data in your screen shot implies there should be no problem running it at 11 volts.

Thanks Tony, but when I was researching the other day, I did see something that stated the solenoid runs at a voltage below 12v. (I think believed that that the info I pasted above included this but clearly not). Can't find it now but it may have only applied to the ETSO (energise to shut off) valves? I will test the switch and if necessary see what the cost of a replacement is from Beta. Thanks again.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Markinaboat
ommission

[dmr]

As said, the solenoid will be designed to pull in at a lowish voltage to cope with a poor battery. It will hold in at a much lower voltage to cope with cranking volt drop, and will survive extended running at maximum charge voltage and elevated temperatures. These engines are used in some tractors but mostly in generator sets where they have to survive a hard life and be very reliable.

 

It may well be a bad connection rather than the switch itself, but if its the switch a standard marine/industrial ignition switch may well be a direct replacement and a fair bit cheaper than Beta (who will likely sell you that same standard switch anyway).

 

.............Dave

[Markinaboat]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

As said, the solenoid will be designed to pull in at a lowish voltage to cope with a poor battery. It will hold in at a much lower voltage to cope with cranking volt drop, and will survive extended running at maximum charge voltage and elevated temperatures. These engines are used in some tractors but mostly in generator sets where they have to survive a hard life and be very reliable.

 

It may well be a bad connection rather than the switch itself, but if its the switch a standard marine/industrial ignition switch may well be a direct replacement and a fair bit cheaper than Beta (who will likely sell you that same standard switch anyway).

 

.............Dave

Got it thanks Dave!

 

Connections at the rear appear to be ok. A slight twiddle of the switch can stop the engine which is waht made me think it's the switch internals.

 

Will have a Google!

[Bod]

1 hour ago, Markinaboat said:

Got it thanks Dave!

 

Connections at the rear appear to be ok. A slight twiddle of the switch can stop the engine which is waht made me think it's the switch internals.

 

Will have a Google!

See post 31.

Too many keys will wreck switch internals.

 

Bod

[Markinaboat]

23 minutes ago, Bod said:

See post 31.

Too many keys will wreck switch internals.

 

Bod

yep, no cork ball either, just the key!