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Would soft Brexit mean no more red diesel?

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With the government is total chaos it's looks likely we will be heading for a soft Brexit. Would that mean an end to red diesel for boat users?

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While their may be bigger issues on the subject, this is a canal forum, so the question is relevant.

 

From previous threads on the subject I think HMRC actually want to permit the continued use of red diesel for boating bu it's the EU that are pressing it to be limited - I forget in what way. 

So I guess it depends completely on how much independance we have after this debacle is finished. 

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We already have a directive from Brussels to charge road fuel prices - which in true European mode - we have ignored not implemented.

It would not be practical to supply road fuel diesel in small quantities - so I guess what will happen is that we'll just pay a lot more for it. If that's so it will be more than you pay to put diesel fuel in your car...

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55 minutes ago, Señor Chris said:

It's only just started.

 

wot debacle??‍♂️

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Least of my concerns, but whatever happens, I think we can kiss good bye to the cheap diesel.  It was only a loophole that was left from trading days on the cut.
I would love a rebate on all of the petrol I have used on boats over the years, not least my generator.

Edited by catweasel

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29 minutes ago, catweasel said:

Least of my concerns, but whatever happens, I think we can kiss good bye to the cheap diesel.  It was only a loophole that was left from trading days on the cut.
I would love a rebate on all of the petrol I have used on boats over the years, not least my generator.

That simply isn't true.  The UK had a tradition of charging duty on road fuel only.  ALL other users of diesel were entitled to use rebated (red) diesel.  ALL other users of diesel not on a road can still use red diesel.  In the interests of harmonisation, the EU has ordered the UK government to force the use of white diesel (or pay the equivalent duty) for propulsion on pleasure boats.

 

Nothing whatsoever to do with trading days on our canals.

 

George

Edited by furnessvale
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7 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

The UK had a tradition of charging duty on road fuel only. 

It used to be called 'DERV'  -Diesel Engined Road Vehicle.  And farm tractors ran on paraffin.

Edited by Chris Williams

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I suspect that white will be required before long whatever happens. This will probably mean a lot of current canalside suppliers giving up as there is no way they can match supermarket/garage prices. So buy shares in jerry can makers and pollution control mats to deal with the inevitable spills. The chaps who use diesel heating (I do) will just have to stump up, because even if they have two tanks it will be hard to get red at all in small quantities, 5000 litres up will still be delivered but that will sink your boat.

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1 minute ago, Detling said:

5000 litres up will still be delivered but that will sink your boat.

I have found that it is no problem to get 1000 litres delivered. (I have a 1000 litre bowser at home for the tractors and digger - no problem to get red (gas-oil) delivered.

I have had Road Tankers come onto the harbour wall to fill us up, and I have seen boats being 'filled' by tanker on the River Trent (hose run down alongside a bridge)

My current boat fuel tankage is 2800 litres.

 

We had a van (Transit type thing) come into the marina - he had 2x 1000 litre 'Intermediate Bulk Containers' (IBC's) filled with red diesel. He had a 12v pump and filled up his boat.

 

Intermediate Bulk Container :

 

grade3-500x500.jpg

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11 minutes ago, Detling said:

I suspect that white will be required before long whatever happens. This will probably mean a lot of current canalside suppliers giving up as there is no way they can match supermarket/garage prices. So buy shares in jerry can makers and pollution control mats to deal with the inevitable spills. The chaps who use diesel heating (I do) will just have to stump up, because even if they have two tanks it will be hard to get red at all in small quantities, 5000 litres up will still be delivered but that will sink your boat.

If we remain in the EU that is a certainty.  Following a complaint by Belgium, the ECJ has ruled our present arrangements are unlawful.

 

If we leave the EU I think the present arrangements will continue but any thought that HMG will rush to roll back this particular EU directive are fanciful.  They will have much bigger fish to fry.

 

George

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My daughter buys her heating oil in 5000 litre loads and I thought that was normal. I note you have a humungous tank 2800 most of us live with 200 or so litres and when we fill up 100 litres is a lot. You won't get guys with vans pissing around for a couple of quid.

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1 minute ago, furnessvale said:

If we remain in the EU that is a certainty.  Following a complaint by Belgium, the ECJ has ruled our present arrangements are unlawful.

 

If we leave the EU I think the present arrangements will continue but any thought that HMG will rush to roll back this particular EU directive are fanciful.  They will have much bigger fish to fry.

 

George

 

But will they be policed? I doubt it.

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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I have found that it is no problem to get 1000 litres delivered. (I have a 1000 litre bowser at home for the tractors and digger - no problem to get red (gas-oil) delivered.

I have had Road Tankers come onto the harbour wall to fill us up, and I have seen boats being 'filled' by tanker on the River Trent (hose run down alongside a bridge)

My current boat fuel tankage is 2800 litres.

 

We had a van (Transit type thing) come into the marina - he had 2x 1000 litre 'Intermediate Bulk Containers' (IBC's) filled with red diesel. He had a 12v pump and filled up his boat.

 

Intermediate Bulk Container :

 

grade3-500x500.jpg

Without looking up the relevant legislation that sounds a highly illegal way to transport 2000 litres on a highway.

 

George

1 minute ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

But will they be policed? I doubt it.

Much as now.  Only pressure from the EU would force more effective policing.

 

George

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According to radio adverts you can go onto a .gov website which has all the BREXIT answers....?

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42 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Without looking up the relevant legislation that sounds a highly illegal way to transport 2000 litres on a highway.

Yes - 2000 litres would be (is) illegal if the carriage is for 'business' in a 'works vehicle' but 1000 litres is allowed as long as you have a 2kg fire extinguisher (that's why my bowser is 1000 litres)

 

Under the European Agreement on the International Carriage of Dangerous Goods by Road (ADR), work-related transport of petrol and diesel may be exempt or partially exempt depending on the circumstances.

Small load exemptions apply up to a quantity of 1000 litres, the quantity depends on the transport category of the goods being transported. For petrol up to 333 litres and for diesel up to 1000 litres may be transported under the small load exemption.

 

For quantities over 1000 litres, ADR applies in full.

It is important however to note that the Petroleum (Consolidation) Regulations 2014 (SI 2014 No. 1637) permits the storage of no more than 30 litres in not more than 2 suitable portable containers in any motor vehicle. So this would apply to vans.

The Petroleum Regulations define a suitable container as one with a nominal volume not more than 10 litres if made of plastic or 20 litres if made of metal. The total volume must be 10–15% greater than this.

For private individuals (ie non-work related), ADR exempts private, non-work related carriage

 

So if the fuel DIESEL is for you own 'private use' you can carry as much as you want as it is exempt from the regulations.

 

Edit to amend 'fuel' to read DIESEL (just to avoid confusion)

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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1 hour ago, furnessvale said:

That simply isn't true.  The UK had a tradition of charging duty on road fuel only.  ALL other users of diesel were entitled to use rebated (red) diesel.  ALL other users of diesel not on a road can still use red diesel.  In the interests of harmonisation, the EU has ordered the UK government to force the use of white diesel (or pay the equivalent duty) for propulsion on pleasure boats.

 

Nothing whatsoever to do with trading days on our canals.

 

George

I once read that it was from WW2 times that such rebated use was allowed on the canal and other uses, but that of course could be incorrect.
I am aware that UK inland boats have been targeted above other users of red diesel.
Either way I think we will lose it regardless of any brexit (or no brexit.) Time will tell.
Edit: from a skim read and if we are to believe this, it appears that "red" laws first appeared in 1935, and tractors weren't allowed t use it until some 44 years later:
"Tractors weren’t allowed to use red diesel until 1979. The first law regarding the usage of red diesel was introduced in 1935." ://www.nationwidefuels.co.uk/rebated-fuel-the-law-surrounding-red-diesel/
I

Edited by catweasel

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2 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

But will they be policed? I doubt it.

Shh they dont police it now, when did you hear of anyone having to prove the percentages

1 hour ago, catweasel said:

I once read that it was from WW2 times that such rebated use was allowed on the canal and other uses, but that of course could be incorrect.
I am aware that UK inland boats have been targeted above other users of red diesel.
Either way I think we will lose it regardless of any brexit (or no brexit.) Time will tell.
Edit: from a skim read and if we are to believe this, it appears that "red" laws first appeared in 1935, and tractors weren't allowed t use it until some 44 years later:
"Tractors weren’t allowed to use red diesel until 1979. The first law regarding the usage of red diesel was introduced in 1935." ://www.nationwidefuels.co.uk/rebated-fuel-the-law-surrounding-red-diesel/
I

I was driving tractors in 1964 and we use to fill them from a large tank at the farm, the same tank fed the farmers central heating. But we were limited to I think 6 miles from the farm but that may have been road tax, it was road tax in those days.

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After Brexit the government will be desperate to raise as much tax as they can - Labour and Tories.  They have promised farmers that they will match the EU subsidies plus heaven only knows what other promises so if red diesel continues it will only be because they have not got around to enforcing white diesel on boats.

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Yeah I'm not looking forward to this coming in, especially with us having a diesel stove. Anybody know how best to check locations of garages that sell red diesel? We know of a few around West Yorkshire that are within walking distance of the canal (with a 20 litre can apiece!) but only through the towpath telegraph; I've had no luck searching online.

 

I can see us ending up a bit like when we had our petrol-outboard boat, forever scribbling garage locations in our Nicholson's Guides and lugging jerry cans around. Also a bit of a legal/moral dilemma; we barely pay tax in any form now that we're not working, and I'm not really happy about the idea of avoiding the little bits we are liable for, but it's a bit of a temptation if buying red for the stove anyway. Especially when the bulk of what goes in the main tank genuinely isn't for propulsion, but for generating power.

 

Not exactly my biggest worry about Brexit though!

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5 hours ago, LadyG said:

wot debacle??‍♂️

Brexacle

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49 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Shh they dont police it now, when did you hear of anyone having to prove the percentages

I was driving tractors in 1964 and we use to fill them from a large tank at the farm, the same tank fed the farmers central heating. But we were limited to I think 6 miles from the farm but that may have been road tax, it was road tax in those days.

I don't know but that could explain things. I know my mate's ancient tractor ran on TVO which I think was kerosene? (mid 1970's)
It is hard to get to the bottom of these things with so many contrary reports. 

Edited by catweasel

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