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Boat builder


Roger Hilton

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40 minutes ago, mark99 said:

Roger

 

Don't underestimate the sheer hard work and time it will cost you to fit out. Second hand may be the way to go unless you have a burning ambition to do or have loads of time and the skills.

Thanks, Mark. Plenty of time to fit out and skills wise it shouldn’t be a problem. I’m a shop fitter by trade and I’ve also fitted out a number of camper vans. Turning my hand to a boat fit out will no doubt be a challenge but ultimately successful..... maybe ha ha

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Also, for what it’s worth, bear in mind that the shell is one thing not easily altered once complete. The colour scheme easily, internal features too, if less so. In terms of both aesthetics and possible later resale, a quality shell is, to my mind, a good investment. The majority of them are produced primarily by fabricators, perfectly able to pull steel and weld, I’ll grant, but not always with the boatbuilders eye for proportion and balance. I can only echo others comments earlier in the thread about quality being worthwhile and the skills needed to produce a good job. Only trying to help, not being a Dismal Jimmy for the sake of it.

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54 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

I can't quite see the relevance  of that question, unless it's a dig at hand made articles. However,

I have owned, driven and enjoyed Alvis TA21, Speed 20 and Speed 25s in the past, but now have succumbed to more modern Volvos which are infinitely more comfortable and safe  to drive, but without any challenges...  

Does that help?

Yes. It wasn't personal, it was intended to illustrate a point. If one prizes quality of execution as per your original post then a production line approach would be a safer bet, hence the question. Your answer shows you understand that; and the world of manufacturing knows it. Somehow though it's a general opinion that the opposite applies to narrowboats. Maybe that's because collectively we really prize aesthetics and probably have a far greater understanding of that aspect than we do of the engineering details.

 

Cost in a shell comes from the time required to cut, bend and weld complex shapes. A cost driven approach may lead to simpler shapes and ones that perhaps aren't quite so hydrodynamically advantageous or as pleasing to the eye, but that has nothing to do with quality of fabrication from the point of view of correctness of the metalworking or indeed the structural design. There is an argument a simpler standard shell is less likely to have defects because there's less risk in the volume and complexity of fabrication required. I would be very surprised if there aren't plenty of simple, relatively cheap but well constructed shells out there and more than a few lovely designs that are poorly executed.

 

The use of the word 'quality' in these threads is hugely ambiguous.

 

JP

Edited by Captain Pegg
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Like anything else it takes a while "get your eye in", I find this is particularly true of sardine tins, sorry, narrowboats,  those  that look too boxy are fairly common, but some of the extreme pointy, upswept "josher-style"" bows are ridiculous imho. With respect to the hull integrity of a used boat, well some of that comes down to design, built quality, maintenance, fitout,  and purse.

If you are able to do painting, welding, fitting,  electrics and real carpentry,  then a sailaway might work, but it's not the cheap option., and it's not the easy option.

If you are not an expert, then you can have  a marine surveyor sign of the work at stages. but you may find you don't own the hull if the builder goes bust before it is completed.

Edited by LadyG
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Just now, LadyG said:

Like anything else it takes a while "get your eye in", I find this is particularly true of sardine tins, sorry, narrowboats,  those  that look too boxy are fairly common, but some of the extreme pointy, upswept "josher-style"" bows are ridiculous imho. With respect to the hull integrity of a used boat, well some of that comes down to built quality, maintenance, design, fitout,  and purse.

If you are able to do painting, welding, fitting,  electrics and real carpentry,  then a sailaway might work, but it's not the cheap option., and it's not the easy option.

I thought you knew Lady G ,narrowboats are not proper boats....they are all Pig ugly.

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7 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I thought you knew Lady G ,narrowboats are not proper boats....they are all Pig ugly.

Indeed, this is true, but life is full of compromises, and if you want to cruise on a narrow canal, then you have to accept certain limitations. 

Edited by LadyG
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26 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

The use of the word 'quality' in these threads is hugely ambiguous.

 

JP

 

Indeed, .any moons ago when I had just been promoted to a project manager, my then boss, despairing at my specifying a "quality" whatever, explained to me that quality means built to meet a standard.

 

That standard can be high or low. However marketing men have convinced the public that "quality" means luxury.

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Sailaways come in many levels:

Hull & Engine only

Plus Flooring

Plus Battening

Plus Insulation/Sprayfoaming

Plus Panelling

Plus Windows

Plus Domestic Electrics

and so on.

Each plus adds to the upfront cost.

Some people go for a cheap hull & engine and spend their money on the plusses. If you've got the practical skills and suitable environment I would recommend going for a good quality hull & engine like a Colecraft and do the rest yourself.  Its what I did. They required a 10% deposit & balance on completion.  I did the first 3 months fitout in their yard.  I belive they have built in excess of 1000 hulls and are still building today so they must be doing something right.

 

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16 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Indeed, .any moons ago when I had just been promoted to a project manager, my then boss, despairing at my specifying a "quality" whatever, explained to me that quality means built to meet a standard.

 

That standard can be high or low. However marketing men have convinced the public that "quality" means luxury.

I was involved in obtaining ISO 9000 for the company.

I could not get anyone to accept that all it meant was that the company produced all items to the same 'quality'.

That quality could be extremely poor - but it would be consistent.

 

ISO 9000 is not a measure of quality it is just a measure of consistency.

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I was involved in obtaining ISO 9000 for the company.

I could not get anyone to accept that all it meant was that the company produced all items to the same 'quality'.

That quality could be extremely poor - but it would be consistent.

 

ISO 9000 is not a measure of quality it is just a measure of consistency.

Standard is the word you are looking for Alan 

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30 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I was involved in obtaining ISO 9000 for the company.

I could not get anyone to accept that all it meant was that the company produced all items to the same 'quality'.

That quality could be extremely poor - but it would be consistent.

 

ISO 9000 is not a measure of quality it is just a measure of consistency.

Many years ago I almost had ISO9000 forced upon me, and did wonder if I could achieve it by guaranteeing to be consistently inconsistent.  ?

 

...............Dave

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9 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

There are much more serious problems than a leak, like whole seams only welded on one side, rudder tubes not welded at the top to the deck, need I go on?

All defects found and documented with Collingwood.

I did not say all shells or every shell, I have seen good and bad, that's the problem you don't know which you have till its too late.

When you talk about seams being welded on one side only do you mean welds that have been prepared in such a way that it is obvious they are designed to be welded both sides and haven't been, or that they have been welded on one side - quite possibly to the specified design - but you think they should be double sided?

 

I'm imagining you are taking about butt welds joining the constituent parts of the overall base and side plates.

 

JP

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32 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I was involved in obtaining ISO 9000 for the company.

I could not get anyone to accept that all it meant was that the company produced all items to the same 'quality'.

That quality could be extremely poor - but it would be consistent.

 

ISO 9000 is not a measure of quality it is just a measure of consistency.

 

Yes, when I worked for BT I was involved in my department getting ISO9000. One day I was walking back to Vauxhall Underground station from a meeting with a colleague, where i was unsuccsessfully arguing for simpler documentation of the processes.

 

As we approached the station (where the overground suburban trains run on top of an embankment with arches supporting the railway line), my colleague commented that a small car radio installation company occupying one of the arches, was advertising that it already obtained ISO9000.

 

I wryly noted that the premises under the arches wasn't big enough to hold our documentation! ?

 

A couple of years later, following several poor performances in ISO9000 audits, due to overcomplicated documentation, I  was tasked with simplifying the documented processes.

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24 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Yes, when I worked for BT I was involved in my department getting ISO9000. One day I was walking back to Vauxhall Underground station from a meeting with a colleague, where i was unsuccsessfully arguing for simpler documentation of the processes.

 

As we approached the station (where the overground suburban trains run on top of an embankment with arches supporting the railway line), my colleague commented that a small car radio installation company occupying one of the arches, was advertising that it already obtained ISO9000.

 

I wryly noted that the premises under the arches wasn't big enough to hold our documentation! ?

 

A couple of years later, following several poor performances in ISO9000 audits, due to overcomplicated documentation, I  was tasked with simplifying the documented processes.

I was responsible for getting ISO9001 accreditation for our BT department. The Sales team (about 50 people) were extremely sceptical of the documentation requirements until at a meeting I was challenged to write their "Quality Manual" and I answered that it need be only one line long; "By any means that is legal and in line with BT policies, get all customers or potential customers to spend as much money as possible". The BSI assessors were perfectly happy with it.

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15 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

I was responsible for getting ISO9001 accreditation for our BT department. The Sales team (about 50 people) were extremely sceptical of the documentation requirements until at a meeting I was challenged to write their "Quality Manual" and I answered that it need be only one line long; "By any means that is legal and in line with BT policies, get all customers or potential customers to spend as much money as possible". The BSI assessors were perfectly happy with it.

 

Well Done!. The assessors check you against what your documentation says, so the simpler the documentation is the better.

 

The trouble is many in BT still have the old Civil Service mentality and the CS are not noted for making things clear and straightforward. ?

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55 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

 

The trouble is many in BT still have the old Civil Service mentality and the CS are not noted for making things clear and straightforward. ?

Disagree: I was a civil servant when integrity was the watchword., maybe it still is ................

I loved writing letters where I explained solution/problems. I never got any further queries.

https://gcs.civilservice.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/6.2169_CO_CP_Style-Guide_v9web.pdf

Looking at today's "style guide" makes me cringe: it indicates today's civil servant has failed Higher English. 

Edited by LadyG
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2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Disagree: I was a civil servant when integrity was the watchword., maybe it still is ................

 

I didn't mention integrity. I was talking about the way civil servants have a tendancy to over complicate things. The tax system would be a good example.

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6 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

When you talk about seams being welded on one side only do you mean welds that have been prepared in such a way that it is obvious they are designed to be welded both sides and haven't been, or that they have been welded on one side - quite possibly to the specified design - but you think they should be double sided?

 

I'm imagining you are taking about butt welds joining the constituent parts of the overall base and side plates.

 

JP

The example that I am most familiar with is a boat purchased 2nd hand but pretty new by a friend of mine. 

On survey several welds were either missing, not continuous or of unacceptable poor quality. Extensive remedial work was carried out, He still has the boat.

All seams and joins below water level should be welded fully, both externally and internally. That includes base plate, hull sides, counter/uxter, weed hatch, fuel tank and stem post.

 

We launched 2 shells from L/PBs which took in water straight away despite having evidence of pink crack detector fluid inside.

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6 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

The example that I am most familiar with is a boat purchased 2nd hand but pretty new by a friend of mine. 

On survey several welds were either missing, not continuous or of unacceptable poor quality. Extensive remedial work was carried out, He still has the boat.

All seams and joins below water level should be welded fully, both externally and internally. That includes base plate, hull sides, counter/uxter, weed hatch, fuel tank and stem post.

 

We launched 2 shells from L/PBs which took in water straight away despite having evidence of pink crack detector fluid inside.

OK, that's a slightly different description.

 

I agree with your second point but "fully welded" doesn't mean that weld metal has to be applied from both sides.

 

The only fully reliable test of the water tightness of a hull is to test it in the water.

 

JP

 

 

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55 minutes ago, bizzard said:

A couple riding along on a tandem and a dog came out and threw a bucket of water over them.

I was doing some work around our garden pond yesterday and disturbed a... er... coupled pair of frogs. They remained coupled for every hop, jumped in the pond, surfaced by some plants and still remained coupled. And he was half the size of her too...

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