Need an inverter recommendation: Best of the worst?

[TheBiscuits]

8 hours ago, Tasemu said:

The poster of the video runs it fine with a 1300w continuous inverter, so figured 1500 would handle it as well.

The Sunshine Solar 1500W can spike to 3000W briefly, so will be a doddle with that washing machine.

 

Ignore the people who have never tried the other kit and insist on the big name brands.  I have had the 3000W Sunshine in constant use for two years, left on nearly all the time. (It's just had a week off as we were on free shorepower in Liverpool until 8 this morning )

 

 

[Sea Dog]

6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Ignore the people who have never tried the other kit and insist on the big name brands. 

Oi, that's not fair - some of us haven't even said anything!  

[TheBiscuits]

24 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Oi, that's not fair - some of us haven't even said anything!  

That does make you much easier to ignore! 

 

In fairness, I should have specified to ignore those that have only ever had one inverter and are happy with it - all of them will say that their brand is the best for the job.  I have had three on this boat and one on the other boat, all different.

 

A good inverter in my book is one that takes juice from the batteries and gives you pure sine wave 230/240V, without bursting into flames.  An excellent one is one that you can just leave on 24/7 and not bother about it flattening your battery bank.

 

The only difference having shorepower last week made was that the immersion heater was on - it's not usually connected!

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by TheBiscuits
spellink mistooks!

[Tasemu]

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

That does make you much easier to ignore! 

 

In fairness, I should have specified to ignore those that have only ever had one inverter and are happy with it - all of them will say that their brand is the best for the job.  I have had three on this boat oand one on the othe boat, all different.

 

A good inverter in my book is one that takes juice from the batteries and gives you pure sine wave 230/240V, without bursting into flames.  An excellent one is one that you can just leave on 24/7 and not bother about it flattening your battery bank.

 

The only difference having shorepower last week made was that the immersion heater was on - it's not usually connected!

 

I'm seriously considering getting this right now. Do you know if there is a big difference with the C-Series models.. I can't see what the difference is, but its cheaper than the normal sunshine model of the same wattage. ?

 

https://www.sunshinesolar.co.uk/Item/C150012

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

I'm seriously considering getting this right now. Do you know if there is a big difference with the C-Series models.. I can't see what the difference is, but its cheaper than the normal sunshine model of the same wattage. ?

 

https://www.sunshinesolar.co.uk/Item/C150012

Yep, they have a switch that lets them work with RCD devices - I assume it makes or breaks a Neutral-Earth bond internally.

 

They are the latest version of the range.

 

For clarity, I have nothing to do with Sunshine Solar other than being a very satisfied customer who recommends them to boaters who want good kit at low prices, rather than needing the name brands at £££££.

Edited March 18, 2019 by TheBiscuits

[Tasemu]

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Yep, they have a switch that lets them work with RCD devices - I assume it makes or breaks a Neutral-Earth bond internally.

 

They are the latest version of the range.

 

For clarity, I have nothing to do with Sunshine Solar other than being a very satisfied customer who recommends them to boaters who want good kit at low prices, rather than needing the name brands at £££££.

Did you get the inline mega fuse kit? If so, should I? Haha cue the ridiculous questions!

[TheBiscuits]

6 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

Did you get the inline mega fuse kit? If so, should I? Haha cue the ridiculous questions!

No, I already had a megafuse installed on the circuit to the no-name inverter that the magic smoke came out of a couple of years ago.

 

But yes, you want one installed.  The inverter running at 1500W will be pulling about 150A, but it can and will spike to 3000W so around 300A from the batteries. (I always work power usage out at 10V to allow for losses in the inverter and make the maths easy  )

 

I wouls suggest you want a 350A or 400A fuse on that circuit.

Edited March 18, 2019 by TheBiscuits

[Tasemu]

8 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

No, I already had a megafuse installed on the circuit to the no-name inverter that the magic smoke came out of a couple of years ago.

 

But yes, you want one installed.  The inverter running at 1500W will be pulling about 150A, but it can and will spike to 3000W so around 300A from the batteries. (I always work power usage out at 10V to allow for losses in the inverter and make the maths easy  )

 

I wouls suggest you want a 350A or 400A fuse on that circuit.

Cheers, just purchased it without the megafuse before I saw this message (damn it). Will purchase a mega fuse kit too, in the meantime, will my inverter blow if I try to get it going without the mega fuse?

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, matty40s said:

He might not have done but gave me lots of good advice on how to keep it going for a while longer, he knew it intimately.

Oh yes, that he most certainly did. 

20 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

will my inverter blow if I try to get it going without the mega fuse?

Not at all but as well as being in contravention of the BSS it’s dangerous (which is WHY it’s in contravention of the BSS). 

[Boater Sam]

4 hours ago, sirweste said:

I wouldn't have thought the motor uses that power, it will be the heating element surely - which obviously won't really care about the waveform it sees. 

 

Never said it does. Of course its the heater that takes a lot of current, we all know that, but the motor has to start and run at the same time in the wash program.

I'm surprised if the max rating of the washer is only 1500 W.

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, Tasemu said:

Cheers, just purchased it without the megafuse before I saw this message (damn it). Will purchase a mega fuse kit too, in the meantime, will my inverter blow if I try to get it going without the mega fuse?

You need the fuse to be safe. If it shorts without the fuse, you have unlimited amps flowing along the cable, which will burst into flames etc..... So you could “get it going”, but........  

 

the fuse is only there to protect the cable. It needs to be big enough to not blow every time you use the max power from the inverter, but small enough to blow if the cable current rating is exceeded. The cable must be sized to exceed the max current likely to flow.

[Boater Sam]

Don't connect without the fuse.  REPEAT  Don't connect without the fuse.

 

Expect to have to  replace your isolator switch quite soon if its the crappy one with a detachable red key, they don't like the current up 'em.

[MtB]

One thing I've not seen mentioned properly yet is cheap inverters tend to draw shockingly high quiescent current, so keeping them ON all the time will still soak your batteries even when you are not running 240v stuff.

 

And swerving off tangentially, have you considered how to replace the charge this inverter will suck from your batteries? 

 

And given your location, is Bristol Floating Harbour Authority ok with washing machines discharging into the harbour? 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman

[Naughty Cal]

We have had a Silverline 2kW inverter running quite happily for the last four years on our boat with no problems.

[Boater Sam]

I don't even know what mine is. 1800 W Pure sine. Will run a 2kW fan heater for a while.

Its at least 15  years old, buried behind the control panel. Came from a firm called G&S, think they are gone. Wasn't expensive, memory gone too.

Never gone wrong, draws very little in standby but I have to have a light on when using the washer, Zanussi, KCW 1300, else it keeps restarting the final spin cycle because it goes into standby while its pumping out.

Edited March 19, 2019 by Boater Sam
added more

[TheBiscuits]

8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

One thing I've not seen mentioned properly yet is cheap inverters tend to draw shockingly high quiescent current, so keeping them ON all the time will still soak your batteries even when you are not running 240v stuff.

My old no-name that let the magic smoke out drew 4.5A doing nothing.  My Sunshine one draws about 1A - it's rated as 0.8A but there is usually something on charge somewhere, so I just work on 1A as default.

[Tasemu]

8 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

You need the fuse to be safe. If it shorts without the fuse, you have unlimited amps flowing along the cable, which will burst into flames etc..... So you could “get it going”, but........  

 

the fuse is only there to protect the cable. It needs to be big enough to not blow every time you use the max power from the inverter, but small enough to blow if the cable current rating is exceeded. The cable must be sized to exceed the max current likely to flow.

 

8 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

Don't connect without the fuse.  REPEAT  Don't connect without the fuse.

 

Expect to have to  replace your isolator switch quite soon if its the crappy one with a detachable red key, they don't like the current up 'em.

How are these things option extras?!

[TheBiscuits]

8 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

 

How are these things option extras?!

Because if like I did you are replacing an inverter, you will already have a megafuse installed.

 

If you are adding one, it needs installing properly.

[IanD]

12 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

No, I already had a megafuse installed on the circuit to the no-name inverter that the magic smoke came out of a couple of years ago.

 

But yes, you want one installed.  The inverter running at 1500W will be pulling about 150A, but it can and will spike to 3000W so around 300A from the batteries. (I always work power usage out at 10V to allow for losses in the inverter and make the maths easy  )

 

I wouls suggest you want a 350A or 400A fuse on that circuit.

Fuses should be chosen to match the continuous power draw of a circuit -- at 2x the rated current a fuse this size won't blow for about a minute, so if you use a 350A-400A fuse it will pass something like 800A for plenty long enough to set the inverter on fire or damage the rest of your system. Suggest you use a 150A fuse for a 1500W inverter.

 

Here's an example of the trip curve for a 150A fuse:

https://www.bluesea.com/products/5114/Fuse_A3T___Class_T_150_Amp

 

At 300A it won't break for at least 1 minute, and is guaranteed to break in about 5 minutes -- the difference is due to manufacturing tolerances.

 

If inverter manufacturers recommend a fuse at 2x the inverter rating, they don't understand how fuses work... ?

Edited March 19, 2019 by IanD

[Tasemu]

Does this mega fuse go between the battery and the inverter positive terminal?

 

Also, my batteries are currently attached to a solar charger, which all my 12v lights and pumps are also connected to... and there are a munch of blade fuses... i dunno exactly how it works... I'm assuming i avoid all this and attach the inverter directly to the batteries with a mega fuse between them?

 

Been looking online for a basic guide for this but nada.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Fuses should be chosen to match the continuous power draw of a circuit -- at 2x the rated current a fuse this size won't blow for about a minute, so if you use a 350A-400A fuse it will pass something like 800A for plenty long enough to set the inverter on fire or damage the rest of your system. Suggest you use a 150A fuse for a 1500W inverter.

 

Here's an example of the trip curve for a 150A fuse:

https://www.bluesea.com/products/5114/Fuse_A3T___Class_T_150_Amp

 

At 300A it won't break for at least 1 minute, and is guaranteed to break in about 5 minutes -- the difference is due to manufacturing tolerances.

 

If inverter manufacturers recommend a fuse at 2x the inverter rating, they don't understand how fuses work... ?

 

Fuses are to protect the cable, not the load.

 

However having said that, they can be sized to avoid damage to equipment connected to a circuit, should the designer choose to, but that is not their prime purpose.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Tasemu said:

Does this mega fuse go between the battery and the inverter positive terminal?

Yes. As close to the butteries as possible but outside the battery box. 

Just now, cuthound said:

 

Fuses are to protect the cable, not the load.

 

However having said that, they can be sized to avoid damage to equipment connected to a circuit, should the designer choose to, but that is not their prime purpose.

Agreed. The device should have its own internal fuse, the megafuse has nothing to do with device protection. 

1 hour ago, IanD said:

... at 2x the rated current a fuse this size won't blow for about a minute, so if you use a 350A-400A fuse it will pass something like 800A for plenty long enough...

Why would the current be limited to 800A?  If there’s a short then the current will be many times this and the fuse will blow almost instantaneously. 

[Boater Sam]

The resistance of the cable will limit the current till it sets on fire and melts/ And no matter how thick the cable, it will have a resistance.

 

A dead short on a cable with a resistance of 1/100 ohm will pass 1200 amps at 12V.

 

A lot.

[IanD]

27 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yes. As close to the butteries as possible but outside the battery box. 

Agreed. The device should have its own internal fuse, the megafuse has nothing to do with device protection. 

Why would the current be limited to 800A?  If there’s a short then the current will be many times this and the fuse will blow almost instantaneously. 

Because if the inverter goes wrong (e.g. both output stage switches on at the same time, or a MOSFET failure) it doesn't appear as a dead short but a small resistance -- in this case you want the fuse to blow as quickly as possible to avoid the inverter bursting into flames as it dissipates several kW internally instead of the hundred watts or so it's designed to dissipate. There's still no good reason to double the fuse rating...

[Jak]

The makers of mine (http://edecoa.com/index.php/e-shop/12v230v-modified-wave/pure-sine-wave/2500w-power-inverter-pure-sine-wave-24v-240v-detail) recommend attaching directly to the battery and don’t mention an in-line fuse!  We had the sense to connect it via an isolator, but I’m just ordering my mega fuse...