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sniffy the great

Home Mooring - CRT monitoring?

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I’ve just bought a narrow boat (Hooray...!). I’ve booked 3 month’s mooring at a marina. I have licenced the boat, naming this marina as the home mooring. The boat is licenced for 12 months. If I don’t renew the marina mooring, is it my responsibility to inform CRT of a change in the boats mooring arrangement or is it up to them to find out? What is the CRT’s procedure for monitoring the home mooring arrangements of every boat?

 

Just wondering.

 

sniffy

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2 minutes ago, sniffy the great said:

If I don’t renew the marina mooring, is it my responsibility to inform CRT of a change in the boats mooring arrangement

Yes, technically within 14 days of leaving the mooring.

 

3 minutes ago, sniffy the great said:

What is the CRT’s procedure for monitoring the home mooring arrangements of every boat?

They check with the mooring operator which boats have moorings at each site.

 

4 minutes ago, sniffy the great said:

Just wondering.

Just in case you (or anyone else reading this) are thinking of pretending to have a home mooring but really be CCing, it won't work.  The current CRT requirements are the same for all boats not on their home mooring, because it is they way their logging system works.

 

You will get automated text messages and emails telling you to move on if you have not done so in 14+ days whether or not you have a home mooring.

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9 minutes ago, sniffy the great said:

I’ve just bought a narrow boat (Hooray...!). I’ve booked 3 month’s mooring at a marina. I have licenced the boat, naming this marina as the home mooring. The boat is licenced for 12 months. If I don’t renew the marina mooring, is it my responsibility to inform CRT of a change in the boats mooring arrangement or is it up to them to find out? What is the CRT’s procedure for monitoring the home mooring arrangements of every boat?

 

Just wondering.

 

sniffy

 

You agreed to the Licence T&Cs when you licenced your boat.

 

Change of details
In accordance with Condition 7.12, the Licence is personal to you and cannot be transferred.
The Licence is specific to the Boat and to you so it is important that you notify us if anything changes.
We can take change of home address information by telephone, but if you change the name of the Boat, if your Home Mooring changes, or if you sell or give the Boat to someone else you must let us know in writing. You should include details of any changed names, addresses or telephone numbers.

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5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

The current CRT requirements are the same for all boats not on their home mooring, because it is they way their logging system works.

It may well be the way C&RT work, but it not a legally enforceable requirment - there is no requirement for a boat with a home mooring to 'bona fide navigate.

 

The judgement in the case of CaRT v Mayers states that repeated journeys between the same two places would be 'bona fide navigation' if the boater had specific reason for making repeated journeys over the same stretch of canal. HHJ Halbert also stated that any requirement by CaRT to use a substantial part of the canal network was not justified by Section 17(3)(c)(ii) of the British Waterways Act 1995 because the requirement to use the boat for bona fide navigation is 'temporal not geographical'.

6:3 There are clear anomalies in both positions, CRT clearly regard the occupation of moorings by permanently residential boat owners who do not move very much as a significant problem (see paragraphs 3.5 and 3.6 above). However, neither the statutory regime in subsection 17(3) nor the guidelines can deal with this problem. A boat which has a home mooring is not required to be “bona fide” used for navigation throughout the period of the licence, but neither is it required to ever use its home mooring. The act requires that the mooring is available, it does not say it must be used. The guidelines also have this effect. The boat is still subject to the restriction that it must not stay in the same place for more than 14 days but there is nothing whatever to stop it being shuffled between two locations quite close together provided they are far enough apart to constitute different places. If those who are causing the overcrowding at popular spots have home moorings anywhere in the country the present regime cannot control their overuse of the popular spots. Such an owner could cruise to and fro along the Kennet & Avon canal near Bristol and the home mooring could be in Birmingham and totally unused.

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It may well be the way C&RT work, but it not a legally enforceable requirment - there is no requirement for a boat with a home mooring to 'bona fide navigate.

True, but there is no legal requirement for CRT to let boats with a home mooring tie up on their towpath either.

 

That's a proper can of worms to open!

Edited by TheBiscuits

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I changed home moorings, ( of towpath) put the boat on the new moorings ( off towpath). Didnt tell them.

a month later they said i was now a continuous cruiser by default and had overstayed etc etc.

they sorted it out , but it proves their efficiency.

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I still reckon that the Mayers ruling quoted above just proves judges are as caapable of talking rubbish as everyone else. I will also point out that, whatever he said, and for whatever reason, Mayers lost his boat. That, when it comes down to it, is the danger of messing with T&Cs, rules, guidelines, call them what you will. The law is an ass, and it always was, and it's best not to tangle with it if you can avoid it. 

That being said, there's no indication whatsoever that any of this applies to the OP so I don't really know why it was being brought up again. I expect they're waiting for some decent weather and going cruising - and all they have to do then is tell CRT they are now a CC. And everyone's happy. 

  • Greenie 2

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1 minute ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I still reckon that the Mayers ruling quoted above just proves judges are as caapable of talking rubbish as everyone else. I will also point out that, whatever he said, and for whatever reason, Mayers lost his boat. That, when it comes down to it, is the danger of messing with T&Cs, rules, guidelines, call them what you will. The law is an ass, and it always was, and it's best not to tangle with it if you can avoid it. 

That being said, there's no indication whatsoever that any of this applies to the OP so I don't really know why it was being brought up again. I expect they're waiting for some decent weather and going cruising - and all they have to do then is tell CRT they are now a CC. And everyone's happy. 

I think what you are saying Arthur that there is an easy way and a hard way, the choice is yours

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1 minute ago, roland elsdon said:

I changed home moorings, ( of towpath) put the boat on the new moorings ( off towpath). Didnt tell them.

a month later they said i was now a continuous cruiser by default and had overstayed etc etc.

they sorted it out , but it proves their efficiency.

C&RT claim that every yard of the tow-path is walked every 14 days and licences, reg numbers are checked and location recorded.

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think what you are saying Arthur that there is an easy way and a hard way, the choice is yours

I think what I was saying is that we shouldn't assume everyone who asks about moving from mooring to CC is looking for loopholes! Sometimes they just want to know how it works. 

 

Quoting daft judge's rulings about daft people like Mayers doesn't really help anyone. 

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

(snip)

A boat which has a home mooring is not required to be “bona fide” used for navigation throughout the period of the licence, but neither is it required to ever use its home mooring. The act requires that the mooring is available, it does not say it must be used. The guidelines also have this effect.

(snip)

I foresee a future court case where much argument is devoted to the meaning of "available". Is a mooring (or other place etc) available if the boat is more than a day's cruising distance from it? Is it available if the route to it is cut off by closures? If I put Gamebird on a trailer, and launch in CaRT waters, do I still have a home mooring, given that it's in Scotland? Bearing in mind, also, the requirement to "satisfy the Board ..."

 

 

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Depending on what the OP's intentions are, I'm not sure I would have bothered to tell CRT of staying 3 months in a marina. If the intention is to remain in a marina, and possibly move to another then yes indeed the conditions require them to be told of a change in home mooring if however the intention is to CC in 3 months time then as far as I would be concerned the 3 months in a marina wouldn't make it a home mooring so I would just state from the outset that I was a continuous cruiser. That is precisely what I did when I bought the boat, I had other things planned for the first three months of ownership and left it in Yelvertoft Marina for that period, when licensing the boat I told CRT I was continuous cruising, it's not as though there is any deception involved since the cost of the licence is exactly the same.

 

There have been a number of occasions since we got the boat when I've left it in a marina for a month or so for one reason or another, I have never advised CRT of this and have never had any comeback.

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48 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I think what I was saying is that we shouldn't assume everyone who asks about moving from mooring to CC is looking for loopholes! Sometimes they just want to know how it works. 

 

Quoting daft judge's rulings about daft people like Mayers doesn't really help anyone. 

I see, yes I quite agree

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9 hours ago, Iain_S said:

I foresee a future court case where much argument is devoted to the meaning of "available". Is a mooring (or other place etc) available if the boat is more than a day's cruising distance from it?

I'm sure that is not what you intended - but - would that suggest that a boat has to return to its home mooring every night ?

 

What happens when I am 'out' on a 3-month cruise ?

I am away from my mooring (or other place on a trailer in my yard) and the mooring is still 'sitting there' empty and available.

  • Greenie 1

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My boat spends 5 months a year on its mooring, continuously and then once moving rarely goes back there for 7 months.

once i am off the mooring i cannot stay anywhere on crt water for more than 14 days, unless i choose to by paying.my mooring is available to me should i be there but i am not. Frequently i am only 10 miles away but so what.

 

its not hard.

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13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It may well be the way C&RT work, but it not a legally enforceable requirment - there is no requirement for a boat with a home mooring to 'bona fide navigate.

 

The judgement in the case of CaRT v Mayers states that repeated journeys between the same two places would be 'bona fide navigation' if the boater had specific reason for making repeated journeys over the same stretch of canal. HHJ Halbert also stated that any requirement by CaRT to use a substantial part of the canal network was not justified by Section 17(3)(c)(ii) of the British Waterways Act 1995 because the requirement to use the boat for bona fide navigation is 'temporal not geographical'.

6:3 There are clear anomalies in both positions, CRT clearly regard the occupation of moorings by permanently residential boat owners who do not move very much as a significant problem (see paragraphs 3.5 and 3.6 above). However, neither the statutory regime in subsection 17(3) nor the guidelines can deal with this problem. A boat which has a home mooring is not required to be “bona fide” used for navigation throughout the period of the licence, but neither is it required to ever use its home mooring. The act requires that the mooring is available, it does not say it must be used. The guidelines also have this effect. The boat is still subject to the restriction that it must not stay in the same place for more than 14 days but there is nothing whatever to stop it being shuffled between two locations quite close together provided they are far enough apart to constitute different places. If those who are causing the overcrowding at popular spots have home moorings anywhere in the country the present regime cannot control their overuse of the popular spots. Such an owner could cruise to and fro along the Kennet & Avon canal near Bristol and the home mooring could be in Birmingham and totally unused.

 

The key thing here is that the mooring must be available.

 

If the OP is no longer paying for the mooring, the mooring owner will doubtless let it to somebody else. It has ceased to be available (both in practical terms because somebody else is there, and in strict legal terms, because the owner isn't going to let the OP return and use a mooring he doesn't pay for).

 

As CRT know how many boats a mooring can accommodate, they will soon notice that the mooring has more boats registered than can moor there, and can ask the owner what is going on

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10 minutes ago, mayalld said:

 

As CRT know how many boats a mooring can accommodate, they will soon notice that the mooring has more boats registered than can moor there, and can ask the owner what is going on

 

Some years ago a friend who owned a length of offside land allowed a number of boaters to declare this as their home mooring, although the boats in question were rarely there ( i.e. ghost moorings). BW soon cottoned on and stopped it.

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If you're staying in a marina for three months, wouldn't you be required to have a mooring permit, same as a home moorer, for that period, even if you cc the rest of the time? ? Or is this covered by the marina fees? 

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It all seems a bit mad, if CR&T need to know where everyone is every so often , why don't they ask boaters to self report using a form. I realise that not everyone has a GPS gadget, but its not impossible to arrange.

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3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

It all seems a bit mad, if CR&T need to know where everyone is every so often , why don't they ask boaters to self report using a form. I realise that not everyone has a GPS gadget, but its not impossible to arrange.

How that would ensure a boat was exactly where the owner reported it?

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13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RT claim that every yard of the tow-path is walked every 14 days and licences, reg numbers are checked and location recorded.

And my situation evidenced this.

my mooring changed from ellesmere port museum to warwickshire, i had 4 months boating between, and then got the email from crt, after i had got the new mooring and left for work abroad.

Neither mooring issues form of permit, neither paid crt anything ( riparian rights)

 

Even in 1987 when we left our ricky bwb butty mooring and applied for a new one up north they knew everything about us, and insisted we had 1.5 moorings to cover both boats.

In the past they had ignored the need for a mooring for the motor as it had commercial licence.

believe me they are pretty on the ball, which i personaly think is good.

 

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Thanks for all the replies. The consensus seems to be as I’d anticipated, ie, it’s no good just paying for 3 months marina mooring then assuming that the CRT will be none the wiser if I don’t renew it, find an alternative or become an official continuous cruiser. Not that I ever considered such a thing. Obviously.

 

sniffy

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When we decided to leave our moorings and become Permanent leisure cruisers we informed CRT and make every effort to stay within the requirements. It's quite simple really. On the odd occasion where we have had to remain in one place due to unforeseen circumstances CRT have been very understanding. It's not a big issue really.

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1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

If you're staying in a marina for three months, wouldn't you be required to have a mooring permit, same as a home moorer, for that period, even if you cc the rest of the time? ? Or is this covered by the marina fees? 

Most marinas you dont require a mooring permit as the marina pays that bit straight to CRT. Even when I was on the off side at Napton I didn't require one and never had one in 18 years

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