BMC 1500 diesel

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, TNLI said:

Wonder where the zinc anodes might be ??

 

If it was raw water cooled it would normally have an engine anode.

The engine anodes are typically 'screw in pencil' type anodes (look  similar to temperature or oil pressure sensors) and will screw into somewhere into the head.

 

If it was keel-cooled it would be unlikely to have an engine anode.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If it was raw water cooled it would normally have an engine anode.

The engine anodes are typically 'screw in pencil' type anodes (look  similar to temperature or oil pressure sensors) and will screw into somewhere into the head.

 

If it was keel-cooled it would be unlikely to have an engine anode.

 

 

On a ground up marine engine yes. On a base engine marinised by a long term marine engine maker often. On all the direct cooled BMCs I have seen then no. They did however change the aluminium thermostat housing for a cast iron one so there were no light alloy parts in contact with the raw water.

 

I think on a single example of another make I found a sacrificial ring around the inside of the thermostat housing but it was too long ago to remember the details.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[Troyboy]

9 hours ago, TNLI said:

Yep, so I ordered this one from Fleabay:

BMC Mini 950cc 1500cc Diesel Engine Spin on Oil Filter head with Gasket & Bolts | eBay

In addition to the advantage of being easier to change a spin on oil filter you will find you can purchase oil filters much cheaper than the canister type . I understand many of the Volkswagen / Audi  range of vehicles had oil filter that will fit your new oil filter head . Hengst H14/2W and Bosch P3033 are two filters I believe will fit . Currently there is a seller on Ebay offering 10 Bosch P3033 oil filters for £30-88 with free postage .

[TNLI]

21 minutes ago, Troyboy said:

In addition to the advantage of being easier to change a spin on oil filter you will find you can purchase oil filters much cheaper than the canister type . I understand many of the Volkswagen / Audi  range of vehicles had oil filter that will fit your new oil filter head . Hengst H14/2W and Bosch P3033 are two filters I believe will fit . Currently there is a seller on Ebay offering 10 Bosch P3033 oil filters for £30-88 with free postage .

Thanks for that info I've oredered a Mann one for a teener, but it appears ASAP do cheaper oil filters, so yet another parts supply financial fork up. If the Hengst filter is made in Germany, they are good, but 10 filters for 30 quid sounds like too good a deal! 

 

Changing tack, I just got an e mail from the chap that did the recon job who says there was a salt pump fitted, so it is a salt water cooled job as I suspected., which will save me some dosh for an alloy welder to install a 1m square cooling plate on the inside, and no need for a new alloy expansion bottle.

[TNLI]

56 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

On a ground up marine engine yes. On a base engine marinised by a long term marine engine maker often. On all the direct cooled BMCs I have seen then no. They did however change the aluminium thermostat housing for a cast iron one so there were no light alloy parts in contact with the raw water.

 

I think on a single example of another make I found a sacrificial ring around the inside of the thermostat housing but it was too long ago to remember the details.

Thanks for that, and if I can't find one, then I will glue in a lump of top of the range Zinc some place, (A Zinc for an alloy boat has to be of a slightly different type to a normal one). Not sure where, but if Yanmar fit zincs on their 2GM's, I'm going to fit one somewhere! 

 

Oddly enough I don't think it would be too difficult to convert to keel cooling, if I decide to head up to the Scottish canals and Lochs next winter! Even the Haggis get frozen North of the border in a bad winter.

 

Looking through the list of parts fitted during the Recon job, I noticed that it does not include a new circulating or salt feed pump. Google seem to imply there are 5 different versions due to pulley realted issues I presume. ASAP only list 3, anyone know more apart from saying count the holes etc ??

Edited October 19, 2021 by TNLI

[Tony Brooks]

You need the bracket as well that bolts to port side front engine mount from memory and as far as I know the pump feet are now slotted and any pump listed as for a 1.5 fits the bracket. You will also  need the little front engine pulley and a longer bolt (Faceache having problems serving the video I can't check). I think the difference in pumps may be to do with type of cooling. Keel cooled with the pump just dealing with a gearbox oil cooler and a wet exhaust would be the smallest one, direct raw water cooled a bit larger, and heat exchanger larger again.

 

Providing there is a large diameter hose connection one the manifold and the gearbox oil cooler connections are large enough for the full coolant flow. With that manifold I doubt you will need a header tank you may if you use a skin tank. There is no reason not to use a plastic one if it is needed.

 

The zinc is to protect  the engine and as long as you either don't want a calorifier or a cabin heater, or there are two cab heater ports on the head (some have none!) you could fit a zinc in one of those.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[Tony Brooks]

Just done a bit of Googling and that seems to suggest aluminium hulls need zinc anodes for salt water but I can see one could make a case for magnesium ones. However, the manufacturer sites do not seem to suggest it. judging by what happens to mag anodes in salt water on steel they may  stop working.

[TNLI]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

You need the bracket as well that bolts to port side front engine mount from memory and as far as I know the pump feet are now slotted and any pump listed as for a 1.5 fits the bracket. You will also  need the little front engine pulley and a longer bolt (Faceache having problems serving the video I can't check). I think the difference in pumps may be to do with type of cooling. Keel cooled with the pump just dealing with a gearbox oil cooler and a wet exhaust would be the smallest one, direct raw water cooled a bit larger, and heat exchanger larger again.

 

Providing there is a large diameter hose connection one the manifold and the gearbox oil cooler connections are large enough for the full coolant flow. With that manifold I doubt you will need a header tank you may if you use a skin tank. There is no reason not to use a plastic one if it is needed.

 

The zinc is to protect  the engine and as long as you either don't want a calorifier or a cabin heater, or there are two cab heater ports on the head (some have none!) you could fit a zinc in one of those.

Thanks, I will take a good look at the present raw water pump this afternoon, as I'm looking for a used Vetus muffler etc.  I would have thought that the resistance involved in direct salt water cooling was less than keel cooling, as you need a plate or set of pipes to pump around. Coolant can expand by 10 to 15%, so a keel cooler must have a header tank of 2 liters plus, and they mostly make good alloy ones, (Sight tube included in some cases), in either 1 or 2.5 liter sizes, for some reason the Chinese will know about.  I don't like plastic anything, which is why I bought a sunken alloy job.

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

nd

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

nd

 

Non Disclosure ?

[TNLI]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I have never seen on on/in a direct cooled BMC 1.5, maybe that is why the indirect version became so popular. I expect the exhaust manifold would go some way to acting as one if its aluminium. The original raw water cooled Newage/Tempest marinisations had  a much thinner cast iron manifold. This was retained for the earlier heat exchanger engines with a Bowman heat exchanger mounted across the front of the engine. No sign of that or it's bracket so If there is a heat exchanger core it is inside the manifold.

 

If it is heat exchanger cooled the heat exchanger will be in the exhaust manifold and I would expect one large hose connection on it, probably underneath, and two small hose connections. I am not familiar with that manifold and suspect it is not a Newage/Tempest one. There is a hint of a "swelling bottom front of the manifold that may be a hose connection.

 

If it is keel cooled the gearbox oil cooler should be connected to the inlet for the engine water pump by a large hose (say 1.25" roughly). The video seems to show a much smaller one, more like the expected raw water size, leaving the oil cooler. The oil cooler needs to be in the cooler return from the keel cooler. The hose on the engine water pump is larger as I would expect but runs vertically downwards to goodness knows where. I can't see a large hot water outlet from the manifold.

 

The exhaust mixing elbow may well be a home made/locally fabricated job. The original Newage/Tempest ones were cast iron and totally different. With no raw water pump and that elbow I suspect its is very much a bitsa,  especially with the bodged rear mounting system.

 

The rear box mounts did not looked bodged in slot or construction terms, not sure about the exhaust outlet, it might just be an earlier version of a very similar ASAP one.  Will look at the existing salt pump this afternoon, as I want that replaced. If it's in good condition I will keep it as a spare.

[Tony Brooks]

32 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Thanks, I will take a good look at the present raw water pump this afternoon, as I'm looking for a used Vetus muffler etc.  I would have thought that the resistance involved in direct salt water cooling was less than keel cooling, as you need a plate or set of pipes to pump around. Coolant can expand by 10 to 15%, so a keel cooler must have a header tank of 2 liters plus, and they mostly make good alloy ones, (Sight tube included in some cases), in either 1 or 2.5 liter sizes, for some reason the Chinese will know about.  I don't like plastic anything, which is why I bought a sunken alloy job.

 

 

Well, there must have been something wrong with the 20 odd hire cruisers that ran keel cooling with just the standard Bowman type manifold cum header tank that was less voluminous than the one in the video that ran perfectly happily without an external expansion tank.

 

There is no raw water pump on the video and no bracket for it, even if it was one of the few with the raw water pump bodged onto the timing cover you would see it on the video.

 

Over thousands of marinised 1.5s it has been shown that the engine water pump is more that capable of circulating coolant through a heat exchanger skin tank or keel cooler. Any direct raw water, wet exhaust or heat exchanger system needs an additional raw water pump and its size (that is output) has to be matched to the degree of cooling required. Heat exchangers have a whole bundle of parallel tubes so taken together they probably have  a larger cross sectional area than the hose/pipe supplying them. Skin tank and keel coolers do not need a raw water pump unless its for a wet exhaust. Direct raw water cooling normally has similar sized pipes/hoses to those used for raw water in heat exchanger systems.

 

An ENGINE water pump can not self prime so it can't really be used for raw water.

 

By the way, if you do go for raw water cooling you should fit a bypass so the pump output can't force the thermostat open when it needs to be closed. The standard Newage/Tempest one had a PRV on the bypass so it only opened when the stat was closed.

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Non Disclosure ?

 

No, somehow the forum deleted most of an incomplete post. I thought i had deleted it but obviously not.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[TNLI]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Well, there must have been something wrong with the 20 odd hire cruisers that ran keel cooling with just the standard Bowman type manifold cum header tank that was less voluminous than the one in the video that ran perfectly happily without an external expansion tank.

 

There is no raw water pump on the video and no bracket for it, even if it was one of the few with the raw water pump bodged onto the timing cover you would see it on the video.

 

Over thousands of marinised 1.5s it has been shown that the engine water pump is more that capable of circulating coolant through a heat exchanger skin tank or keel cooler. Any direct raw water, wet exhaust or heat exchanger system needs an additional raw water pump and its size (that is output) has to be matched to the degree of cooling required. Heat exchangers have a whole bundle of parallel tubes so taken together they probably have  a larger cross sectional area than the hose/pipe supplying them. Skin tank and keel coolers do not need a raw water pump unless its for a wet exhaust. Direct raw water cooling normally has similar sized pipes/hoses to those used for raw water in heat exchanger systems.

 

An ENGINE water pump can not self prime so it can't really be used for raw water.

 

By the way, if you do go for raw water cooling you should fit a bypass so the pump output can't force the thermostat open when it needs to be closed. The standard Newage/Tempest one had a PRV on the bypass so it only opened when the stat was closed.

 

No, somehow the forum deleted most of an incomplete post. I thought i had deleted it but obviously not.

Did not get a chance to see my abused BMC this afternoon, as the chap that opens up the storage area has gone AWOL again.  

 

Sorry I confused you by saying salt water pump, as I presume my direct cooling system uses the normal circulating pump, so I will look in the manual for where that is installed, as I got the impression it is on the outside, but might have gone AWOL before delivery, along with the hose to the mixing elbow. 

 

Might try to take a look for the pump or mounting plate tomorrow PM, although I'm busy installing the galley sink and dual burners, a classic Primus paraffin job and a French alcohol burner, both mounted together in a gimballed unit I knocked together from various scrap parts.

 

Can't understand this part:

An ENGINE water pump can not self prime so it can't really be used for raw water.

 

If the pump is near the waterline, or the engine has been running before, why can't it be used for sea water ?? 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by TNLI

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Did not get a chance to see my abused BMC this afternoon, as the chap that opens up the storage area has gone AWOL again.  

 

Sorry I confused you by saying salt water pump, as I presume my direct cooling system uses the normal circulating pump, so I will look in the manual for where that is installed, as I got the impression it is on the outside, but might have gone AWOL before delivery, along with the hose to the mixing elbow. 

 

Might try to take a look for the pump or mounting plate tomorrow PM, although I'm busy installing the galley sink and dual burners, a classic Primus paraffin job and a French alcohol burner, both mounted together in a gimballed unit I knocked together from various scrap parts.

 

Have a look at the cooling section in the maintenance notes on my website. Those will give you a fair idea abut the pumps and circuits required. As long as the manifold has a large bore connection and you are happy with a dry exhaust I think tank/keel cooling would be the simplest way to progress but I fear you will need another gearbox oil cooler to allow the use of the required large bore hoses.

[TNLI]

6 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Just done a bit of Googling and that seems to suggest aluminium hulls need zinc anodes for salt water but I can see one could make a case for magnesium ones. However, the manufacturer sites do not seem to suggest it. judging by what happens to mag anodes in salt water on steel they may  stop working.

Had a look at McDuffs site, but they don't seem to say anything about alloy boats, although I doubt if using a lump or 4 of Aluminium would be very effective. High grade Zinc for sure on the prop and any old McDuff dangly anodes either side of the rudder and prop area. Luckily my boats 3 ft 6 inch max draught allows easy access to the prop shaft with only hands in the water, so no need for a diver.

  Oddly enough I've never heard of the use of alloy or magnesium anodes before, just Zinc.

[TNLI]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Have a look at the cooling section in the maintenance notes on my website. Those will give you a fair idea abut the pumps and circuits required. As long as the manifold has a large bore connection and you are happy with a dry exhaust I think tank/keel cooling would be the simplest way to progress but I fear you will need another gearbox oil cooler to allow the use of the required large bore hoses.

Good web site and I like the section about petrol inboards. They used to be very popular in the USA until the insurance companies got interested. The whole idea of allowing petrol near a boat is nuts, even if it's for use in an outboard engine. It's not just engines that suffer from fuel leaks, fuel tanks and their connections can be nearly as dangerous. 

 

Alas I can't find the section you mentioned about cooling on your site, any chance of a swift link ??

[TheBiscuits]

14 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Alas I can't find the section you mentioned about cooling on your site, any chance of a swift link ??

 

https://www.tb-training.co.uk/15cool.htm

 

It's in the "Boat Maintenance notes" section.

 

http://www.tb-training.co.uk/Contents.htm

[Alan de Enfield]

45 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Oddly enough I've never heard of the use of alloy or magnesium anodes before, just Zinc.

 

That's because you have never been on fresh water before :

 

Zinc = Seawater

Mag = Fresh water

Aluminimum = Brackish water.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[TNLI]

Thanks TB, that was very useful, as I did not know how the gearbox cooler has to be fed from the raw water side. Also I will need to figure out where the pump or missing bracket is located. 

[Tony Brooks]

48 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Good web site and I like the section about petrol inboards. They used to be very popular in the USA until the insurance companies got interested. The whole idea of allowing petrol near a boat is nuts, even if it's for use in an outboard engine. It's not just engines that suffer from fuel leaks, fuel tanks and their connections can be nearly as dangerous. 

 

Alas I can't find the section you mentioned about cooling on your site, any chance of a swift link ??

 

Here you go http://www.tb-training.co.uk/15cool.htm#bmn51

 

I don't think you found my site, I hardly mention petrol inboards because of the dangers and the vast majority of my target students have diesels.

[Alan de Enfield]

53 minutes ago, TNLI said:

I like the section about petrol inboards. They used to be very popular in the USA

 

I'd suggest that they still are, it is only the 'big' cruisers that have diesels.

Mercruiser (The USA's biggest engine maker) are still producing a full range of 'gas' engines up to V8 /  8.2 litre

 

 

[TNLI]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

That's because you have never been on fresh water before :

 

Zinc = Seawater

Mag = Fresh water

Aluminimum = Brackish water.

I rather think I have, both in the UK canals, German lakes and US Intercoastal Waterway, BUT only a real rich kid would keep changing anodes, as most cruisers I sailed or fished with, went back into either brackish or salt water most years. The US folks spent their winters in Floridas Intercoastal, Waterway, but then went back into salt water, or the great lakes.

 

The cost of employing divers to change anodes several times a year is serious, as they seem to insist of 2 divers in some states. I'd never heard of Alloy anodes until today, as it was Zinc for those in or visting salty areas, but Magnesium for the Germans and US great lakes fans. Some companies did make mixed metal anodes, although not Mr McDuffs. The intelligent cruisers or liveaboards resort to using danglies rather than fixed anodes for most areas of the boat except the prop. It's also cheaper if you just buy some Zn or Mg compound bars, and then make your own earth wire. 

 

You do need to fit a rub bar for the prop anode to function correctly, like wot McDuff make:

MGDuff - EE1

 

Difficult to find, cheapest so far:

ECS 5590 MG-DUFF THE ELECTRO ELIMINATOR - NO. 1 Anode Galvanic Protection | eBay

 

My boat did have a Heath Robinson type of Copper strip resting on the prop shaft, but as I'm intending to get a new shaft coupling fitted when my new pre abused BMC is fitted, I will need a proper job as they tend to insulate the prop rather too well. Anyone know a cheaper version ??

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by TNLI

[Alan de Enfield]

 

You seem to be getting very inconsistent (or forgetful)

 

 

4 hours ago, TNLI said:

Oddly enough I've never heard alloy or magnesium anodes before, just Zinc.

 

 

3 minutes ago, TNLI said:

I'd never heard of Alloy anodes until today, as it was Zinc for those in or visting salty areas, but Magnesium for the Germans and US great lakes fans.

 

[TNLI]

Ahh, to answer my own question, (Bad habit), it seems Fleabay are expensive, Amazingzone are a zero, (Nada in search for Electro Eliminator), I found the following in good old Goggle search;

MG Duff Electro Eliminator for Shafts up to 50mm Diameter 812701 | ChasNewensMarine (chastheboat.co.uk)

 

[StephenA]

Just now, TNLI said:

 

You do need to fit a rub bar for the prop anode to function correctly, like wot McDuff make:

MGDuff - EE1

 

 

 

 

Prop anode?  I suspect that we're drifting rapidly away from a BMC install and away from canal boats.

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by StephenA