Changes to the BSS Regs

[jeanb]

We've installed a CO alarm, suitable for boats, on our narrowboat in our sleeping quarters at bunk height. We're not due a BSS examination for a while yet so we're wondering if we've got the right location. Should we speak to a surveyor or can somebody on here kindly advise us what the BSS regs will require with regard to siting onboard, or where we can find the info. Thanks  

[Keeping Up]

But have the rules actually been published regarding type, positioning, and number required? I haven't been able to find the detailed information anywhere. For example, if a cabin has a sofa-bed but nobody sleeps there (although of course in theory they could) then does that cabin need a CO alarm?

[Iain_S]

8 minutes ago, jeanb said:

We've installed a CO alarm, suitable for boats, on our narrowboat in our sleeping quarters at bunk height. We're not due a BSS examination for a while yet so we're wondering if we've got the right location. Should we speak to a surveyor or can somebody on here kindly advise us what the BSS regs will require with regard to siting onboard, or where we can find the info. Thanks  

That's correct place for the sleeping quarters. If there is another one in the living quarters, it should ideally be near the deckhead (ceiling) , about 100mm below it, the theory being that, although the CO molecule mixes really well with the rest of the air, any produced will initially be hot, and will therefore rise.

 

The alarms (or, at least, the one I've just replaced) come with instructions regarding placement.

[bizzard]

Most BSS examiners will ptobably carry a cargo of CO detectors around with them to flog to customers, they'll earn extra bucks.

[Momac]

22 minutes ago, jeanb said:

We've installed a CO alarm, suitable for boats, on our narrowboat in our sleeping quarters at bunk height. We're not due a BSS examination for a while yet so we're wondering if we've got the right location. Should we speak to a surveyor or can somebody on here kindly advise us what the BSS regs will require with regard to siting onboard, or where we can find the info. Thanks  

I think if they see one  functioning CO detector on the boat in the main living space and one in the main sleeping cabin it will be a pass.

[Keeping Up]

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

I think if they see one  functioning CO detector on the boat in the main living space and one in the main sleeping cabin it will be a pass.

Which still begs the question, what exactly are the rules?

[Momac]

17 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

Which still begs the question, what exactly are the rules?

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/carbon-monoxide-(co)/placing-co-alarms/

 

 

[Chewbacka]

Here is the proposed wording for the  BSS rules/requirements.

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/296462/I3-BSS-CO-Alarm-Checks-and-extract-draft-App-I-2Feb19.pdf

Edited March 7, 2019 by Chewbacka

[Keeping Up]

16 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Here is the proposed wording for the  BSS rules/requirements.

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/296462/I3-BSS-CO-Alarm-Checks-and-extract-draft-App-I-2Feb19.pdf

Thank you, that is what I have been looking for.

[Alan de Enfield]

These meet the Part 2 requirement and are approved for Boat use.

 

From the BSS :

Guidance for owners – although not a BSS requirement, carbon monoxide alarms marked to the ‘BS EN 50291-2’ are the best choice for boats. They have been tested to meet the more onerous conditions found in boats.  

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kidde-7CO-Carbon-Monoxide-Alarm-Replaceable-Batteries-10-Year-Sensor-Warranty/303063404986?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

[Chewbacka]

Just a pointless rant, but I do wish the bss people would proof read what they write.  For example they say in 6.4.1 consider putting one in the breathing zone in a sleeping place, so mid to low level but in  6.4.3 they say they must be at high level.  So how does that work???

Being pedantic in 6.4.1 they say “i.e. near to a bed head” but actually they mean “eg near to a bed head”.

Whilst I know (or think I do) what they mean, these are regulations and should be written accurately and clearly.

[Momac]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

From the BSS :

Guidance for owners – although not a BSS requirement, carbon monoxide alarms marked to the ‘BS EN 50291-2’ are the best choice for boats. They have been tested to meet the more onerous conditions found in boats.  

 

Not all BS EN 50291-2  CO detectors are certified by their manufacturers as being suitable on boats.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Not all BS EN 50291-2  CO detectors are certified by their manufacturers as being suitable on boats.

 

I didn't know that - as I understood it the Part 2 WAS the boat approval.

 

The Manufacturing Standards

The manufacturing standard covering carbon monoxide detectors is divided into two parts. The previous guiding standard BS 50291:2001 was superceded in April 2011 and a decision was made to split the standard into two parts, with part one covering domestic grade CO detectors, and part two covering detectors intended for use in recreational vehicles such as caravans or boats.

The majority of CO detectors bought are purchased for use within a standard domestic setting, and are intended to be stationary throughout their lifespan. Of course the home is not the only place where there is a risk of carbon monoxide poisoning, therefore there is also a range of 'portable' devices that are tested further to ensure they can withstand the conditions likely to be encountered if the product is used in a recreational vehicle.

The additional testing allows manufacturers to mark certain CO alarms as being suitable for vehicles. This distinction is a handy indicator for those in the know, but has been known to cause uncertainty for some people when browsing for a new carbon monoxide detector. To help alleviate any confusion, we have summarised each part of the standard below.

Part 1:

BS EN 50291-1:2018	Summary:
Title: Electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises. Test methods and performance requirements.	Published: May 2018
	Replaced: BS 50291:2010
	Look for this if: Purchasing a CO alarm for home use

This part one defines the test methods and performance requirements for 'electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises', i.e. carbon monoxide detectors. It covers a wide range of performance and durability measures, and lays out the means, and extent of testing for things such as sensor reaction times, temperature resistance and minimum alarm volume levels.

This is the most widely applicable testing standard for carbon monoxide detectors, and is intended to set a base performance level for devices sold 'for continuous operation in domestic premises'.

You should ensure that a CO detector purchased for the home conforms to either part one or part two of BS EN 50291.

 

Part 2:

BS EN 50291-2:2010	Summary:
Title: Electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises. Electrical apparatus for continuous operation in a fixed installation in recreational vehicles and similar premises including recreational craft. Additional test methods and performance requirements.	Published: April 2011
	Replaced: NA- New Specification
	Look for this if: Purchasing a CO alarm for a vehicle (or home)

This part two defines the additional testing needed, and the expected performance criteria for carbon monoxide detectors which are likely to be subject to movement or vibration during their lifespan. In general terms it can be considered that alarms conforming to this standard are more robust than alarms simply carrying the part one kitemark.

This testing standard is becoming a more common sight, perhaps as a result of a growing appetite for portable CO detectors. Recent public information campaigns have valiantly attempted to raise awareness of the dangers of carbon monoxide when camping or boating for example.

Holidaymakers or regular boat and caravan users now have a way of discerning at a glance which CO detectors are designed specifically to keep them safe when travelling. You should always ensure that any CO detectors purchased for use outside of a standard domestic setting conform to part two of BS EN 50291.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I didn't know that - as I understood it the Part 2 WAS the boat approval.

 

The Manufacturing Standards

The manufacturing standard covering carbon monoxide detectors is divided into two parts. The previous guiding standard BS 50291:2001 was superceded in April 2011 and a decision was made to split the standard into two parts, with part one covering domestic grade CO detectors, and part two covering detectors intended for use in recreational vehicles such as caravans or boats.

The majority of CO detectors bought are purchased for use within a standard domestic setting, and are intended to be stationary throughout their lifespan. Of course the home is not the only place where there is a risk of carbon monoxide poisoning, therefore there is also a range of 'portable' devices that are tested further to ensure they can withstand the conditions likely to be encountered if the product is used in a recreational vehicle.

The additional testing allows manufacturers to mark certain CO alarms as being suitable for vehicles. This distinction is a handy indicator for those in the know, but has been known to cause uncertainty for some people when browsing for a new carbon monoxide detector. To help alleviate any confusion, we have summarised each part of the standard below.

Part 1:

BS EN 50291-1:2018	Summary:
Title: Electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises. Test methods and performance requirements.	Published: May 2018
	Replaced: BS 50291:2010
	Look for this if: Purchasing a CO alarm for home use

This part one defines the test methods and performance requirements for 'electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises', i.e. carbon monoxide detectors. It covers a wide range of performance and durability measures, and lays out the means, and extent of testing for things such as sensor reaction times, temperature resistance and minimum alarm volume levels.

This is the most widely applicable testing standard for carbon monoxide detectors, and is intended to set a base performance level for devices sold 'for continuous operation in domestic premises'.

You should ensure that a CO detector purchased for the home conforms to either part one or part two of BS EN 50291.

 

Part 2:

BS EN 50291-2:2010	Summary:
Title: Electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises. Electrical apparatus for continuous operation in a fixed installation in recreational vehicles and similar premises including recreational craft. Additional test methods and performance requirements.	Published: April 2011
	Replaced: NA- New Specification
	Look for this if: Purchasing a CO alarm for a vehicle (or home)

This part two defines the additional testing needed, and the expected performance criteria for carbon monoxide detectors which are likely to be subject to movement or vibration during their lifespan. In general terms it can be considered that alarms conforming to this standard are more robust than alarms simply carrying the part one kitemark.

This testing standard is becoming a more common sight, perhaps as a result of a growing appetite for portable CO detectors. Recent public information campaigns have valiantly attempted to raise awareness of the dangers of carbon monoxide when camping or boating for example.

Holidaymakers or regular boat and caravan users now have a way of discerning at a glance which CO detectors are designed specifically to keep them safe when travelling. You should always ensure that any CO detectors purchased for use outside of a standard domestic setting conform to part two of BS EN 50291.

Where did that come from?

[Momac]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I didn't know that - as I understood it the Part 2 WAS the boat approval.

 

The Manufacturing Standards

The manufacturing standard covering carbon monoxide detectors is divided into two parts. The previous guiding standard BS 50291:2001 was superceded in April 2011 and a decision was made to split the standard into two parts, with part one covering domestic grade CO detectors, and part two covering detectors intended for use in recreational vehicles such as caravans or boats.

Part 2 does refer to recreational vehicles, caravans  and boats . However the maker may select which of these is applicable.

I recently bought a Fire Angel CO-9D which is part 2 compliant and was advertised as suitable on boats but when it arrived the packaging had the yacht symbol struck out indication it is not intended for use on a boat.  I received a refund.

 

Edited March 7, 2019 by MartynG
.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Where did that come from?

https://www.safelincs.co.uk/british-standards-for-co-alarms/

 

SafeLincs - the company that does our Fire Extinguishers (etc etc) at the Caravan Park.

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

Part 2 does refer to recreational vehicles, caravans  and boats . However the maker may select which of these is applicable.

I recently bought a Fire Angel CO-9D which is part 2 compliant and was advertised as suitable on boats but when it arrived the packaging had the yacht symbol struck out indication it is not intended for use on a boat.  I received a refund.

 

Interesting - I'll have to check up on the ones I've bought.

[jonathanA]

15 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Just a pointless rant, but I do wish the bss people would proof read what they write.  For example they say in 6.4.1 consider putting one in the breathing zone in a sleeping place, so mid to low level but in  6.4.3 they say they must be at high level.  So how does that work???

Being pedantic in 6.4.1 they say “i.e. near to a bed head” but actually they mean “eg near to a bed head”.

Whilst I know (or think I do) what they mean, these are regulations and should be written accurately and clearly.

The whole thing smacks of rushed through and poorly thought out. The consultation was a joke and now there is a complete lack of information and communication 

 

did we really expect anything  different ? 

 

Does Rob from the BSS still post on here or has he gone with MTB? ?

Edited March 7, 2019 by jonathanA

[Momac]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

https://www.safelincs.co.uk/british-standards-for-co-alarms/

 

SafeLincs - the company that does our Fire Extinguishers (etc etc) at the Caravan Park.

Interesting - I'll have to check up on the ones I've bought.

The safelincs website is pretty good and in fact their website had the correct data for the detector I bought ( CO-9D,  the one with the liquid crystal display showing  CO level or room temperature).   However their advert on Amazon was wrong and this misled me . I bought using Amazon. I believe the retailer named on the advert  does not have full control over the full content of Amazon adverts.

I am not complaining as I received a full refund.

 

The fire angel CO-9X is , I believe , suitable.  I think on inland waterways rather than salt water  it's not a big deal  but the BSS examiners may have  a list of suitable detectors. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, MartynG said:

The fire angel CO-9X is , I believe , suitable.  I think on inland waterways rather than salt water  it's not a big deal  but the BSS examiners may have  a list of suitable detectors. 

Phew ...........I'm OK - the Kidde 7CO is approved by BSI for boat usage.

 

http://www.kiddesafetyeurope.co.uk/Documents/7COC Data Sheet.pdf

 

Fully tested and approved by BSI for use in boats and caravans

 

From the installation manual :

 

5. Installation Instructions for Caravans and Boats As well as being recommended for use in homes, this alarm is approved for use in caravans, motor homes and boats.
In addition to following CoGDEM (www.cogdem.org.uk) and NCC guidelines; • Do not install directly above a source of heat or steam. • Avoid locating close to vehicle and exhaust fumes as these can damage the alarm sensor In addition to the instructions for boats; • Avoid locating near engine exhaust gases in the accommodation space • Avoid running the engine when moored alongside objects such as a wharf, a wall or another boat • Avoid running your engine when docked in a crowded marina as vehicle and exhaust fumes can damage the alarm sensor. For further information visit www.boatsafetyscheme.com

Edited March 7, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[cheshire~rose]

On 06/03/2019 at 17:14, keelingtom said:

Hi

 

For the record, the maximum permitted throughput for an Alde bubble tester is 12kw, not 20kw; this is what Alde themselves state. 

 

The device should not be installed at all if there is more than 12kw of appliances aboard unless the device is correctly positioned in a bypass set up. 

 

 

I have done no research on this but I was told there were two available and the larger was 20kw.

 

 

[Momac]

8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Avoid running the engine when moored alongside objects such as a wharf, a wall or another boat • Avoid running your engine when docked in a crowded marina as vehicle and exhaust fumes can damage the alarm sensor. 

Some of those things are unavoidable.

Exhaust fumes entering the boat are one of the main risks as far as I am concerned.

 

[Sea Dog]

9 hours ago, MartynG said:

Part 2 does refer to recreational vehicles, caravans  and boats . However the maker may select which of these is applicable.

I recently bought a Fire Angel CO-9D which is part 2 compliant and was advertised as suitable on boats but when it arrived the packaging had the yacht symbol struck out indication it is not intended for use on a boat.  I received a refund.

 

I thought I'd read that units not specifically approved for use in boats would remain acceptable for BSS until such times as they need replacement in order not to force unnecessary wholesale replacement by those already otherwise compliant with the requirement?

[cuthound]

Fortunatly mine are Kidde 7CO's and will meet the forthcoming changes.

 

I suspect a detector being suitable for a small seagoing boat would be subject to some pretty harsh testing conditions, pitching, rolling, vibrations from wave impact in heavy seas an well as engine transmitted vibration.

 

Hardly the typical conditions experienced by the average canal.boat, which especially if lived on would be more akin to a house.

 

 

[Momac]

37 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

I thought I'd read that units not specifically approved for use in boats would remain acceptable for BSS until such times as they need replacement in order not to force unnecessary wholesale replacement by those already otherwise compliant with the requirement?

However if buying a new detector it would be preferable to buy one that is suitable for boats.

[Sea Dog]

6 minutes ago, MartynG said:

However if buying a new detector it would be preferable to buy one that is suitable for boats.

Daft not to really.  My current Fire Angel ones have a CO level read out and graph display, plus a thermometer, so I'm hoping they don't have to be disposed of prematurely to be replaced with something lesser with a tick in a box for yachting conditions they're not going to see.