Boat hierarchy

[Boater Sam]

Au contraire, the engines were the best part of most '60s cars, it was everything else that fell apart.

Once Ford stopped trying to sell sidevalve motors, they made pretty damn good engines, Lotus and Cosworth knew that. Highly tuned Minis won rallys for fun, even a Hillman Hunter won a long distance endurance event.

 

The small 4 cylinder BMC diesels were hopeless in road vehicles, that's why they are so good in boats! Old, slow, and simple rules on the canal. Even the Land Rover units were not up to the job.

 

The British manufacturers deserved to be knocked, that's why Datsun and Co found it so easy to destroy our car markets and become the world leaders. History tells no lies.

[Athy]

8 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Au contraire, the engines were the best part of most '60s cars, it was everything else that fell apart.

.

One of my Dad's cars was a Vauxhall Ventora, the "coke bottle" shaped model, maroon with a black vinyl roof, 3.3 litre 6-cylinder engine. It was by far the flashiest car that he (a quite restrained person) ever owned. After a few years his regular garage, after replacing yet another rusty panel, told him that before long he'd be driving around on just the engine. Only then did he trade it in.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Athy

[bizzard]

7 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Au contraire, the engines were the best part of most '60s cars, it was everything else that fell apart.

Once Ford stopped trying to sell sidevalve motors, they made pretty damn good engines, Lotus and Cosworth knew that. Highly tuned Minis won rallys for fun, even a Hillman Hunter won a long distance endurance event.

 

The small 4 cylinder BMC diesels were hopeless in road vehicles, that's why they are so good in boats! Old, slow, and simple rules on the canal. Even the Land Rover units were not up to the job.

 

The British manufacturers deserved to be knocked, that's why Datsun and Co found it so easy to destroy our car markets and become the world leaders. History tells no lies.

Japanese mechanicals are still second to none. They destroyed our motorcycle industry too. Yes the BMC petrol engines were all good strong engines. Land Rover diesels were hopeless but the 2286cc petrol engine was superb, ex Rover 60 and much better than the old O.I.S.E engines. I remember inspecting one of the first Datsun 120Y's that I saw. The engine and transmission was virtually identical to BMC A series but done much much better, the exhaust note even sounded the same as an A sries engined BMC car.

[Boater Sam]

8 minutes ago, Athy said:

One of my Dad's cars was a Vauxhall Ventora, the "coke bottle" shaped model, maroon with a black vinyl roof, 3.3 litre 6-cylinder engine. It was by far the flashiest car that he (a quite restrained person) ever owned. After a few years his regular garage, after replacing yet another rusty panel, told him that before long he'd be driving around on just the engine. Only then did he trade it in.

And that would be one of the later better models!

 

To slide back on topic a bit, are there any shell builders known for excessive corrosion of narrowboat hulls? Obviously there are many factors but is there one known for premature scrapping?

3 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Japanese mechanicals are still second to none. They destroyed our motorcycle industry too. Yes the BMC petrol engines were all good strong engines. Land Rover diesels were hopeless but the 2286cc petrol engine was superb, ex Rover 60 and much better than the old O.I.S.E engines. I remember inspecting one of the first Datsun 120Y's that I saw. The engine and transmission was virtually identical to BMC A series but done much much better, the exhaust note even sounded the same as an A sries engined BMC car.

I did have a 1600 cc  landy for a long while, OISE petrol of course, which ran on 3 cylinders until well warmed up due to a wiped exhaust cam lobe.

[bizzard]

The Vauxhall GM 4 and 6 cylinder engines were good strong powerful engines, but not the Viva engine, a weak troublesome engine.  The 3.3 was a flyer in the PAD Cresta too,

[bizzard]

7 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

And that would be one of the later better models!

 

To slide back on topic a bit, are there any shell builders known for excessive corrosion of narrowboat hulls? Obviously there are many factors but is there one known for premature scrapping?

I did have a 1600 cc  landy for a long while, OISE petrol of course, which ran on 3 cylinders until well warmed up due to a wiped exhaust cam lobe.

Me too, a 1954 1500cc 80'' it had avery anoying small end tapping but never gave trouble.

[Boater Sam]

9 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Me too, a 1954 1500cc 80'' it had avery anoying small end tapping but never gave trouble.

I can't find that model, after I think 1951/2 they were 2000cc, and I don't know of a 1500cc at all. The 80" officially finished in 1953. And the freewheel gearbox went at the same time.

Mine was a 1949 but not the early chain pull 4 wheel drive.

[bizzard]

8 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

I can't find that model, after I think 1951/2 they were 2000cc, and I don't know of a 1500cc at all. The 80" officially finished in 1953. And the freewheel gearbox went at the same time.

Mine was a 1949 but not the early chain pull 4 wheel drive.

Definitely 1500, 1954, may have been an ex military one, re-registered but I don't think so GMO 761.  MO Berkshire CC.

Edited March 5, 2019 by bizzard

[DHutch]

On 03/03/2019 at 17:19, Sea Dog said:

Boat hierarchy?  Sail before steam, isn't it? So that's @Alan de Enfield followed by @DHutch then the rest of us with narrowboats, then the gongoozelers, with any visiting caravan club members bringing up the rear.  (I know I've missed few categories,  but it's not a serious post!)

Sadly its much harder to get things in place so that 'opening up the taps' produces the required get up and go with our steam plant than most diesels. So while we get around at a reasonable pace be might not be leading!

On 03/03/2019 at 17:29, RLWP said:

 

Which all falls apart when faced with a Big Woolwich:

 

 

If you can see that much, there no weight in it and nothing in the water, so it will just bounce off! Bring it on.

 

Daniel

[aracer]

On 03/03/2019 at 15:17, Psychalist said:

Another interesting tid-bit one doesn't glean from photos i.e. the reason for raised seating. Something to be said from being there and sitting in a boat, positions of windows, hatches etc.

As for a wardrobe, in something where space is a premium, I surprised they are so common. I'm happy to fold my clothes, though I'm yet to find a boat with hanging space for cycles, which I'm more reluctant to fold.

I assumed a raised dinette was a fairly standard thing - though admittedly I didn't examine many other boats that closely as the boat I'm currently sitting on was the first one I looked at seriously once I'd decided on my criteria and it was love at first sight (and I didn't find anything else whilst I was making my mind up which really met my criteria). Not that I necessarily knew all that much when I bought it, but it does meet the ticklist I'd have now - trad stern, second cabin with bunks, decent builder (Colecraft), solid hull (extremely good for a 30yo boat, it's been really well looked after, though that was more luck than judgement), cratch ? (I'll come back to that, though clearly the lack of that wouldn't be a major reason to reject a boat which was otherwise good), no obvious design flaws, good efficient layout with separate dining area and living area. I could add stuff to that list, but TBH most of the OP's list is stuff which is easily changed. There are also things I would change if starting with a blank sheet - most of those will get changed at some point. The layout ones will be a pain, but need doing - the major one is that the bunks are too narrow, which is really irritating as making them wider is only going to eat slightly into storage space, I have no idea why they weren't made a decent width in the first place as the space is there in the cabin.

 

Just on the subject of the dinette, the other major advantage of a raised one is the huge amount of storage space - something I wasn't even fully aware of when I bought my boat. I was worried about finding somewhere for all my stuff and it's happily swallowed the lot! Which leads neatly on to the last bit...

 

I'm not sure there is much wrong with wardrobes - they're not that inefficient a use of space, not if you use them properly and don't leave lots of empty space. However where I can really contribute to this thread is that I do have hanging space for cycles! I'm going to leave that there until tomorrow as it's too dark to take photos...

 

Phew I think I neatly got the thread away from the discussion of '50s and '60s British cars - though my boat does have a BMC1.8 engine!

Edited March 10, 2019 by aracer

[Psychalist]

15 hours ago, aracer said:

...though my boat does have a BMC1.8 engine!

Oh, now look what you've done!

 

Maybe a good idea for a new thread... innovative touring cycle storage solutions

[roland elsdon]

Nothing innovative involved

our butty had cycle shed at the front. 

Racked out for 6 bikes tools wheels turbo trainer and workstand.

the back cabin had a short  extension where the best racing bike was kept.

 

one motor had a flat tug deck with a false deckboard  planks cloths and  upstand.

under it tandem, 3 bikes.

best racing bikes and wheels used to sleep in the bed hole in the back cabin.

 

current boat bikes luxuriate in 30 foot of boat we make do with back cabin and extension. Bikes banned from inside, unless we are overseas.

at our age the main problem is lifting them out.

 

priorities...

[peterboat]

On 03/03/2019 at 12:40, Fly Navy said:

OK -time to take a pop at me (again!):

 

"SO FAR".....my perfect boat

 

Colecraft sailaway with a beta engine, keel cooled, hospital silencer, zinker hull, sleeps 4, stern cruiser with entry into a galley not a bedroom!  Cassette toilet, double glazed, bow thruster, cratch, Refleks stove, Convector fans, CH, Victron inverter/charger, calorifier, LED lighting. Gas galley, PV panels, walk thru bathroom (no bath, shower only),

 

Then I woke up?

Should be a Johnathon Wilson, as his shells always seem to win at Crick boat show, sometimes they get first second and third

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

............sometimes they get first second and third

The same boat ?

[peterboat]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The same boat ?

Different builders using different shells

[Bod]

On 03/03/2019 at 13:10, Fly Navy said:

Alan - absolutely, didn't want the entire list regurgitated.

 

But here's more:

 

Ebersplutter/Webasto.

4 plus 1 battery bank

double alternators.

split charge relay

LPG changeover valve

 

Another cracker 4-50 thank you.

If you have 2 alternators, you don't have split charge relays.

LPG changeover valve, guaranteed to allow you to completely run out of gas, 3/4 of the way through cooking Sunday roast.

 

Bod 

[ditchcrawler]

On 11/03/2019 at 22:47, peterboat said:

Should be a Johnathon Wilson, as his shells always seem to win at Crick boat show, sometimes they get first second and third

And how many people who voted have a clue how any of those boats handle, he just walk round and look at the pretty bits and pieces 

[Chris Williams]

On ‎03‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 03:34, roland elsdon said:

Never got in to Joshers  so cant comment,

Heavy-arsed and can't carry a decent load.  Look pretty though.

[Chris Williams]

Watched a Morris Minor go fast over our hump-back bridge.  Both front wheels came off.  What the RAF boys would call 'a Pancake landing'

[peterboat]

13 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

And how many people who voted have a clue how any of those boats handle, he just walk round and look at the pretty bits and pieces 

His boats handle well, but in reality in comparison to real boats our boats are slow, lumbering, ill handling beasts to say the least! if we are honest

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

His boats handle well, but in reality in comparison to real boats our boats are slow, lumbering, ill handling beasts to say the least! if we are honest

You know that, I suspect its the case, but how many tyre kickers at Crick who voted know that. If a boat builder put a very nicely fitted cabin on a punt it would probably win. Lots of people dont look past the curtains.

[Naughty Cal]

On 03/03/2019 at 11:52, Fly Navy said:

For the same reason I choose to leave this country to go on holiday when i could stay here every year. For the same reason I buy a car and leave it outside every day when I could use taxi's.

Boating, like any other hobby (for me) is an extension of my enjoyment...QED...I want to enjoy it, not spend days or weeks holed up alongside trying to repair or undo flaws that I couldn't be bothered to look for beforehand.

One gets what one deserves, I guess.

I don't think boat ownership is for you based on the words you wrote there!

[jetzi]

 

On 03/03/2019 at 14:08, Captain Pegg said:

Yep. It's Ivan&alice all over again. And guess what happened there? Still, he was a terribly nice chap. The OP would do well to research that episode. You won't succeed trying to buy a boat like this.

 

On 03/03/2019 at 14:43, TheBiscuits said:

Erm, didn't @ivan&alice end up buying the boat their spreadsheet described in nearly every detail?

 

On 03/03/2019 at 14:48, Captain Pegg said:

Did they? Must admit I thought they bought a boat that was different from their criteria in one or two key ways. Didn't they also acknowledge the boat kind of 'found them' in the end?

 

On 03/03/2019 at 14:53, Athy said:

Thank you to those who have mentioned I & A. I must admit that I haven't seen anything from them in these pages lately. I do hope they are enjoying life on their boat.

 

We're still here!! Sorry we have been so quiet. We were hibernating for the winter. Absolutely we are still loving every second of life aboard. The way we went about it was too much by the head and not the heart for a lot of people, but for us it really worked out well. We ended up with a fantastic bote, for a price that we knew was terrific, and we sailed away in confidence even though neither of us had ever driven a boat before. She ticked pretty much all of our boxes, but of course there had to be one or two things we overlooked! Honestly I think making a list of your needs and wants is still a great idea, and I'd do it again - the point of them was not to list dealbreakers, but rather things that counted for and against each boat we looked at. It's a big decision and there are tons of factors. There are the must haves, the nice to haves, the whatevers and the definitely nots. To be fair to the forum, the advice everyone gave makes so much more sense in retrospect. One piece of advice that we received time and again was to go out and look at boats. We looked at over 50 that were for sale before we bought ours. Still not totally sure what it means that the boat found us. We found her on Facebook, I don't think she was even looking for us . But when we saw her... we knew instantly that she was the one! (Partly thanks to the spreadsheet, of course...)

 

@Fly Navy have you found your boat yet? Happy to offer more tips from our buying experience, if you have any specific questions. We might have a different perspective as boaters less than a year in. In the end we settled for an ex-hire boat, and I would encourage new boaters to do the same. We got a Black Prince. Absolutely fantastic boat. She's got the typical BP bumper on the front and rear, has very generous sacrificial chines, and is built like a tank besides, in 10/8/6mm steel. These features are designed for hirers - and are all really helpful considering for the first few weeks you are going to have exactly as much experience as a hirer. You're also likely to get a relatively new boat for relatively low cost.

• Beta engine. Yes, ours is awesome.
• Silencer. No. Don't think so anyway. Why? Seems pointless.
• Epoxied hull. I also wanted this but changed my mind - the expense isn't justified IMO and I don't want to worry about my epoxy with every bump. I actually want her out of the water every couple of years to get a good look at her bottom, so blacking is the way for me.
• Cruiser stern. Actually we originally wanted a trad for more internal space. So glad we got a cruiser. Ours is 65' so there is plenty of space anyway. It also makes the engine and weed hatch really easy and convenient to get at. I might consider a trad in future if I ever go for a shorter boat, but I would really miss that back deck.
• Reverse layout. I can see pros and cons. We have a walk through bedroom, I originally wanted a cross bed for the extra width. Forum advised against the cross bed and now we're very comfortable on our small double. I really enjoy being able to get out of both ends of our bote.
• Cassette toilet. Agreed - wouldn't have it any other way. I could always tell which boats for sale had a pump out. By the smell. Besides they take up a lot of space. Emptying the cassette is much less disgusting than I'd expected, as long as you aren't stingy with the Elsan blue.
• Double glazed. This was also on my list, but it's rare so something you'd have to install it, probably. Black Princes like ours have a double glazed bow door, and I really can tell the difference in noise insulation. For that reason I'd love double glazing everywhere one day. Heat insulation, it turns out after having cruised through a winter, doesn't really matter that much. All it means is that you'd save on coal - and considering you're willing to burn diesel to stay warm, heating costs doesn't seem to be a concern for you.
• Refleks stove. Too expensive to run. I can see the convenience and lack of coal dust being nice though. Maybe I'll consider that for our second stove at the stern end of the cabin. I do like the redundancy, in case we run out of coal someday while frozen in. Our Morsø Squirrel in the saloon right near the bow goes all night and heats two thirds of the boat with minimal fuel and we love it. (Side note: After trying a lot of different fuel brands, we're Excel devotees).
• Bow thruster. Yes - the missus and her barge pole. Unless you mean the expensive unnecessary extra-moving-part kind, in which case, begone heathen.
• Cratch. Nah. If your boat is big enough, you'll want the outside space. And the cratch covers I've seen tend to end up looking tatty.
• Convector fans. People either swear by them or think they are quackery. We don't have one, so I think they are quackery, naturally.
• Victron inverter/charger. Nope. We run everything off 12V and a single 110Ah leisure battery. So far, so great. We don't have a washing machine yet though, and it has been winter so our fridge is not an issue. And the wife is increasingly dissatisfied with her 12V hair dryer Christmas pressie. So, we'll get one of these once we have the money for this and a washing machine.
• Calorifier. OH YES. Hot water in 15 mins with the engine running. And I really like the redundancy of having the calorifier and Ebersplutter. I'm even considering adding a second stove with a back boiler, I love redundancy so much.
• LED lighting. There are other kinds?? (This is easy to change if the boat doesn't have it).
• Gas galley. Has to be.
• PV panels. Not yet. The most important part here - how many watts? We've been living without PV for several months as we try to determine how much we'll need.
• Walk thru bathroom, no bath, shower only. Yes. This was our criteria too. So much more space. Ex-hire boats don't usually have this, so we were extremely fortunate that the previous owner had redone the bathroom.
• Ebersplutter/Webasto. Yes. As I said, I like the redundancy. However we exclusively use our engine for hot water - since we don't have PV and it has been winter anyway, we need to run the engine for electricity anyway - so the hot water is for free. The Eber is going to be a boon once we have PV though, I think.

• 4 plus 1 battery bank. double alternators. split charge relay. Only the split charge. See the electrical posts on this forum. You need to be doing a proper electrical audit before you can confidently say you need all this gear. We do 100% fine on the one batt. Lots of other people are horrified to learn this. Really depends on your usage.

• LPG changeover valve. No. And I don't want one. Although when it was a hire boat it had one. Changing a pigtail over is almost as fast and you do it once every 2 months. What I would rather have is a low pressure hose with a regulator that screws directly into the bottle. Less pipe under high pressure = less chance of leakage.

 

 

[aracer]

On 20/04/2019 at 21:42, ivan&alice said:

• Cruiser stern. Actually we originally wanted a trad for more internal space. So glad we got a cruiser. Ours is 65' so there is plenty of space anyway. It also makes the engine and weed hatch really easy and convenient to get at. I might consider a trad in future if I ever go for a shorter boat, but I would really miss that back deck.

I have a trad and very happy with that - lots of storage space I use in the engine room and no problem at all with access to the engine (weed hatch is slightly more tricky, but given I've only opened it once in 6 months I'll live with that! What do you do with the back deck that you'd miss so much? I was expecting to mostly boat alone and having a lot more guests than I expected, but it still works fine (I tend to sit on my roof when steering and also have guests up there, which may not be for everybody - but I couldn't steer from the roof with a cruiser and I'd miss that!)

• Victron inverter/charger. Nope. We run everything off 12V and a single 110Ah leisure battery. So far, so great. We don't have a washing machine yet though, and it has been winter so our fridge is not an issue. And the wife is increasingly dissatisfied with her 12V hair dryer Christmas pressie. So, we'll get one of these once we have the money for this and a washing machine.

Wow! - I'm amazed at you managing with that - you must run your engine often? Though as soon as you get an inverter then I'd expect you to struggle with lack of batteries (unless you restrict its use to when the engine is running)

 

 

 

[jetzi]

7 hours ago, aracer said:

I have a trad and very happy with that

Definitely. Having never owned any other boat I don't know what a trad would be like. I think my point was that I was very keen on a 57' trad, but ended up with a 65' cruiser and very happy with it. The stern style, it turns out, is less important than I thought. I do want to get a nice high perch chair that I can sit on and steer, so I can imagine sitting on the roof being nice. We use the back deck to store and easily load/unload heavy things like bicycles. And when cruising it's nice to be able to have five or six friends around.

 

 

But does your trad provide engine accessibility like that?!

 

21 hours ago, aracer said:

Wow! - I'm amazed at you managing with that - you must run your engine often? Though as soon as you get an inverter then I'd expect you to struggle with lack of batteries (unless you restrict its use to when the engine is running) 

We run our engine 45-60 min twice a day, and I reckon that's too much. Our battery never drops below 12.1V. We only run the 12V fridge while the engine is on, though, which has been fine over winter but is increasingly becoming a problem. We don't have anything we need 240V for yet. We desperately want a washing machine though. Big electrical upgrade on the horizon then - inverter, solar panels, extra batteries. The main thing that saves us is that we have laptops that charge via a 45W USB car charger. We have very smart LED lighting that is all individually controlled and we're careful with it. Then there are our water pumps. We don't use power for anything else!