Boat hierarchy

[roland elsdon]

5 hours ago, RLWP said:

 

I have recently been working on a boat with two folding bikes hanging in the engine room

 

Richard

4 bikes 1 tandem  you wouldnt know they are on board and a 30 foot patio,  its a matter of compromise and prioritising.

some dreams expressed on here are the stuff of my nightmares.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

24 and 30 screwed onto each end of the stub axle strut. If not kept greased reularly rain water rusted away the threads and they could pull out.

I’m guessing you mean 24 & 40?

 

So was I right then that it was those bits collapsing in some form due to a lack of lubrication that caused the ‘roundabout kneel’?

[bizzard]

27 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I’m guessing you mean 24 & 40?

 

So was I right then that it was those bits collapsing in some form due to a lack of lubrication that caused the ‘roundabout kneel’?

Yes 24 40.  Yes either could pull out once the threads had rusted away, especially the bottom one which was under constant tension ''weight of the car against the tortion bar.  Greasing was recommended every 1,000 miles to chase water out as well as lubing them. Once rust was present on the threads and mixed with water and grease it was like a grinding paste and wore the threads out quickly.

Edited March 3, 2019 by bizzard

[BWM]

2 hours ago, RLWP said:

No.

 

Because the Allegro is FWD, it doesn't have a king pin (the Minor does), it has two ball joints. So it would be a ball joint failure

 

Richard

The wheel and suspension used to break away at the top, leaving the wheel flat on the floor. No idea exactly what failed to cause it though. 

[bizzard]

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

24 and 30 screwed onto each end of the stub axle strut. If not kept greased reularly rain water rusted away the threads and they could pull out. seals weren;t very good in those days. Same design torsion bar front suspension as the E type Jaguar.

 The Allegro had more modern spring loaded screw on shim fitted swivel ball joints secured with tab washers. Also torsion bar front suspension.

 

1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

But it's a Northwich, which Chertsey isn't!

Amendment.  Silly me the Allegro had Hydrolastic suspension not torsion bar. It did have the screw in swivel ball joints top and bottom though that sometimes came unscrewed and caused a collapse.

[dmr]

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

 

Amendment.  Silly me the Allegro had Hydrolastic suspension not torsion bar. It did have the screw in swivel ball joints top and bottom though that sometimes came unscrewed and caused a collapse.

I assume the Allegro was similar to the mini, and the mini would very occasionally throw a front wheel (been there and dunnit). The front swivels (ball joints) needed frequent adjustment and replacement and I think the locking tabs on some pattern parts where not brilliant so the top swivel could undo itself. Locking tabs were not easy to get separately so if you where just doing a tighten up to get the MOT it was common to re-use the old tab. Looking back the mini was a pile of Sh**** but they were fun to drive.

 

.................Dave

 

 

[Boater Sam]

Why Alec I  thought a half steel and half brass screw thread was a suitable swivel for a car's front suspension is beyond me. His effort later with adjustable ball joints was better but no one greased them or adjusted them.

Everything fails on a Minor eventually, try main and only brake hydraulic pipe and master cylinder inside the driver's side chassis leg under the floor, Just where all the water and grit finishes up.

Alegro aggravation on 4 wheels, most of the time. Shame they didn't tell the mechanics that the rear wheel bearings were now taper roller not ball races and don't tighten them up!

 

My boat was bought after seeing 20 to 25,  twenty years later we still love it and wish we could buy a new one just the same. We did alter a few things though, cross bed out, rebuilt the engine space and rear steps, more wardrobe, galley refit, more cupboards in saloon, new folding table, different paint scheme. Not a lot really!

Oh, and made the rear hatch a slide on a slide, bit novel that one.

 Would like 8 feet more length but that's too much work.

[roland elsdon]

Should have learned with the triumph herald and spitfire front trunnions. I used a spitfire for commuting until 1996 when i finaly gave up.

there is a set of trunions new intheir boxes somewhere in my useful bits box..

you had to grease them ( ep 90 ) every 3000 miles, as well as the rear hubs propshaft ujs, and rear swing spring. With a five hundred a week commute i spent my life under it. I had a big box of spare consumables on the boat, you know stuff people dont know about nowadays, uj joints, brake and clutch kits ,track rod ends, su carb needles etc.

 

 

[Boater Sam]

And it is a source of wonder to some folk as to why the British sports car business went through the floor as fast as it did.

We really made some totally crap vehicles, not surprising with cowboy outfits like BMC, BL, Rover, Standard Triumph, Rootes, Lucas. Ford produced antique cars into the '60s then tinworm specials.

Only the diesel boys got it nearly right, CAV made good injector gear, loads still working.

 

Thankfully the boat builders of the day produced some lovely craft, most of which continue to give pleasure and a home to people now.

[bizzard]

9 hours ago, dmr said:

I assume the Allegro was similar to the mini, and the mini would very occasionally throw a front wheel (been there and dunnit). The front swivels (ball joints) needed frequent adjustment and replacement and I think the locking tabs on some pattern parts where not brilliant so the top swivel could undo itself. Locking tabs were not easy to get separately so if you where just doing a tighten up to get the MOT it was common to re-use the old tab. Looking back the mini was a pile of Sh**** but they were fun to drive.

 

.................Dave

 

 

All the front wheel drive BMC BL cars from the mini in 1959 and later to around that era used the same type of screw in shimmed swivel ball joints.  Min's, 1100;s, 1300, Allegro, Austin 1800 and  wedge Princess, Maxi's. The trouble was if someone didn't shim properly and the ball was a bit tight and binding heavily in its socket and with a worn out knackered tab washer turning the steering sometimes unscrewed the socket and caused a collapse, They were spring loaded with a little pressure cup to preven rattle as the ball wore a little. Later Princesses and Maxi's never had the shims and were pre set units but still screwed in.

Edited March 4, 2019 by bizzard

[Fly Navy]

Are Colecraft front wheel drive?

[system 4-50]

I have a picture somewhere of my Colecraft with mid-wheels...

(They move some of their boats with a truck axle under the hull.)

Edited March 4, 2019 by system 4-50

[Iain_S]

18 hours ago, RLWP said:

 

Allegros don't have king pins

 

Minors have bottom trunnions that fail

The Marina was prone to it as well. Mainly caused by lack of grease, and not knowing how to check them.

[Iain_S]

 

18 hours ago, RLWP said:

Huh? That's like saying the roof fell off because of the fog light bulb...

 

 

King pin and stub axle are part 35. Bottom trunnion is 99. I'm not that familiar with the Minor, I suspect the failure might be the ends of the arms 65 and 66 through corrosion

 

Anyone?

 

Richard

Both the bottom trunnion and the king pin were subject to wear, especially if not lubricated. Most wear was on he trunion, though, as it was bronze. The problem often went undetected until failure, as the torsion bar keeps the joint in tension,so that usually no play is detectable with the car jacked up, unless jacked under the lower suspension arm. Quick test is a lever under trunnion against wheel. It was possible to get trunnions with a smaller threaded hole in them, and machine the king pin under size. If that was done, one also was supposed to paint the whole assemby red. Very seldom done, as it was a lot quicker to just change the king pin, if necessary, along with the trunnions, and leave everything standard size.

[ditchcrawler]

12 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

 

Both the bottom trunnion and the king pin were subject to wear, especially if not lubricated. Most wear was on he trunion, though, as it was bronze. The problem often went undetected until failure, as the torsion bar keeps the joint in tension,so that usually no play is detectable with the car jacked up, unless jacked under the lower suspension arm. Quick test is a lever under trunnion against wheel. It was possible to get trunnions with a smaller threaded hole in them, and machine the king pin under size. If that was done, one also was supposed to paint the whole assemby red. Very seldom done, as it was a lot quicker to just change the king pin, if necessary, along with the trunnions, and leave everything standard size.

But if you change all those bits will it still float and be as good as a Hudson? 

[bizzard]

They're not really king pins on the Minor they're stub axle assemblies.  King pins and bushes were mainly used on solid beam axle vehicles, plus on a huge range BMC rear wheel drive front coil spring suspension cars over the years.  A lever under any cars bottom ball joint or swivel is a good test, especially cars with Mc Pherson strut suspension'' but l;evering down as well as up''  which most cars use these days and have done for many years now.

Edited March 4, 2019 by bizzard

[roland elsdon]

14 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

But if you change all those bits will it still float and be as good as a Hudson? 

Opened the door....

14 hours ago, bizzard said:

They're not really king pins on the Minor they're stub axle assemblies.  King pins and bushes were mainly used on solid beam axle vehicles, plus on a huge range BMC rear wheel drive front coil spring suspension cars over the years.  A lever under any cars bottom ball joint or swivel is a good test, especially cars with Mc Pherson strut suspension'' but l;evering down as well as up''  which most cars use these days and have done for many years now.

 

14 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

But if you change all those bits will it still float and be as good as a Hudson? 

 

14 hours ago, bizzard said:

They're not really king pins on the Minor they're stub axle assemblies.  King pins and bushes were mainly used on solid beam axle vehicles, plus on a huge range BMC rear wheel drive front coil spring suspension cars over the years.  A lever under any cars bottom ball joint or swivel is a good test, especially cars with Mc Pherson strut suspension'' but l;evering down as well as up''  which most cars use these days and have done for many years now.

Good as a hudson at what exactly? 

[mark99]

On 03/03/2019 at 21:00, roland elsdon said:

4 bikes 1 tandem  you wouldnt know they are on board and a 30 foot patio,  its a matter of compromise and prioritising.

some dreams expressed on here are the stuff of my nightmares.

[bizzard]

Why knock British cars of around that era, they were no worse than the foreign offerings at the time, and all the foibles they had kept us garages nice and busy. Rootes group cars were particulally smooth running. Until Japanese cars came along, Very reliable and pretty trouble free.

Edited March 5, 2019 by bizzard

[Boater Sam]

36 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Why knock British cars of around that era, they were no worse than the foreign offerings at the time, and all the foibles they had kept us garages nice and busy. Rootes group cars were particulally smooth running.

Because they made some absolute shockers. BMC 1100/1300 rust box, Vauxhall Victor F & HA Viva , Hillman Avenger, to name a few. We had them queuing up to be scrapped.

 

Yes , there were some terrible continentals, Renault Dauphine, Simca chatterboxes, but a lot of good ones we rarely saw in the shop.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Boater Sam
added more

[bizzard]

1 minute ago, Boater Sam said:

Because they made some absolute shockers. BMC 1100/1300 rust box,Vauxhall Victor F.

Around the mid to late 1960's the 1100-1300 was the country's best seller, which swayed beteen those and the Cortina for a few years. All cars were prone to rust in those days. until the government stepped in and insisted on better undersealing and rust protection.  FB victors got rusty quite quickly but the FC was much better.

[bizzard]

If people had any sense in those days they avoided buying what we called ''Seaside cars'' Because they invariably had the horrid yellowy rusty sea air corrosian. Before buying always checked them out buy their registration numbers which told where the car was first registered when new, and probably used in that district with its first owner for a while, ie Southend district council, which most had HJ in their number.

[doratheexplorer]

On 03/03/2019 at 09:34, Captain Pegg said:

The straight answer is yes. Well, at least probably, in most people's mind.

 

I think it's probably best to get your head around different categories or groups rather than hierarchy. Different types appeal to different people. So very vaguely (and maybe slightly tongue in cheek);-

 

Ex-working boats - a bubble of its own inhabited by people who don't know any other type of boat exists. Keep out.

 

Enthusiast boats - built by a long standing boat builder with a nod to tradition. Will have a proper traditional stern with a boatman's (back) cabin and a slow revving engine in it's own engine room. More frequent examples on market will be Norton Canes, Les Allen, Canal Transport Services but also renowned boat builders like Roger Farrington, Roger Fuller and Steve Priest and a few others are out there. May all look overpriced to you.

 

Bling boat - the boating equivalent of a mock Tudor mansion. Pretensions to the above and of a high quality but including fake rivets and exaggerated steelwork features. Examples are SM Hudson, RW Davis, Barry Hawkins. The latter two branded some boats as "Northwich Trader". The owners of this type of craft believe they are at the top of the hierarchy.

 

Good solid boats - could be any style but will probably have a modern reliable Japanese engine in a box or under the rear deck, quite possibly a Beta Marine (marinised Kubota). Probably a bit contentious to list but maybe Orion, or a shell by Colecraft fitted out by others. May have non-traditional signwriting. A sin in the eyes of owners of the first two categories. The interior will be wood and will not be white. Exterior may be overly polished on some examples.

 

London liveaboard - mutton dressed as lamb. White panelled interior, modern appliances, big tiles in bathroom. Like a floating flat. Operational engine an optional extra, any number available on market. Probably an old example of the above that's outlived it's natural purpose on the canals.

 

Ex-hire boat - a misunderstood type of boat that is looked down on by owners of blingy boats and shiny examples of good solid boats. Good examples can become excellent liveaboard boats. May be a better bet than above type.

 

Springer - the exception that proves the rule. Thank God.

 

JP

Great list - except mine is probably a 'good solid boat', except it doesn't have a Japanese engine and it's never seen any polish.

[bizzard]

I went to Leigh-on-Sea to a funeral last week, when I got back I noticed a fresh blemish of yellowy rust on my car.

[bizzard]

48 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Because they made some absolute shockers. BMC 1100/1300 rust box, Vauxhall Victor F & HA Viva , Hillman Avenger, to name a few. We had them queuing up to be scrapped.

 

Yes , there were some terrible continentals, Renault Dauphine, Simca chatterboxes, but a lot of good ones we rarely saw in the shop.

So I suppose your also knocking your boats BMC diesel engine which you seem to have great praise for on here . Again they were on a par with other engines of the time,, no better, no worse but dead slow and sluggish in vehicles.

Edited March 5, 2019 by bizzard