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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 it depends what you mean by 'fully charged',

Yeah, I simply meant to charge up to 13.8V, which is the maximum voltage I have ever seen from my battery.

 

Thanks for the explanation. There is simply no way that lead acid batteries could ever be fully charged if it takes 12h to do so, except with solar in the summer. Does this mean everyone who is battery conscious is running their engines/gennies for half the day, every day in the winter?

 

This is about the best case for lithium that I have seen, in that case. Perhaps I should reconsider it for my new bank - I had discounted it because I thought the primary advantage was the lower weight per Ah, which isn't really a concern on a boat. I would still be keen to weigh that up against the cost of having to replace the LAs every couple of years.

 

Anyway, like I said, my current battery is serving its purpose and I don't expect it to last too long. You have successfully put the fear of God into me for my next set of batteries and I'll make sure I know what I'm doing by the time I get to installing them.

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6 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Does this mean everyone who is battery conscious is running their engines/gennies for half the day, every day in the winter?

 

Broadly speaking, yes. Although it is generally held that charging for an hour or two each day or two plus 10 hours every weekend is a good compromise.

 

 

3 hours ago, WotEver said:

Well yeah, 99.99% or 99.9% or...

 

Well 99% takes three hours, 99.9% takes 12 hours, 99.99% takes about a week....

 

I expect Ivan gets the picture by now.

 

 

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
Speeling.
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16 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Yeah, I simply meant to charge up to 13.8V, which is the maximum voltage I have ever seen from my battery.

 

Thanks for the explanation. There is simply no way that lead acid batteries could ever be fully charged if it takes 12h to do so, except with solar in the summer. Does this mean everyone who is battery conscious is running their engines/gennies for half the day, every day in the winter?

 

This is about the best case for lithium that I have seen, in that case. Perhaps I should reconsider it for my new bank - I had discounted it because I thought the primary advantage was the lower weight per Ah, which isn't really a concern on a boat. I would still be keen to weigh that up against the cost of having to replace the LAs every couple of years.

 

Anyway, like I said, my current battery is serving its purpose and I don't expect it to last too long. You have successfully put the fear of God into me for my next set of batteries and I'll make sure I know what I'm doing by the time I get to installing them.

That voltage is a bit low, its probably the regulator fitted to your alternator. You really need to be 14+ IMO

 

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25 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

This is about the best case for lithium that I have seen, in that case. Perhaps I should reconsider it for my new bank - I had discounted it because I thought the primary advantage was the lower weight per Ah, which isn't really a concern on a boat.

 

Absolutely NOT.

 

The case for lithium is that they will suck up the WHOLE 70A of your alternator output ALL THE TIME, and they don't need to be mollycoddled by charging them fully every day/week like LA batts. They can be charged to whatever you like, whenever you like, with bugger all degradation resulting.

 

Or something like that...

 

 

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8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Broadly speaking, yes. Although it is generally held that charging for an hour or two each day or two plus 10 hours every weekend is a good compromise.

So all of this stuff about 2 hours a day killing batteries is not true as long as you charge for 10 hours once a week in order to keep your batteries healthy? That means that there isn't that much wrong with what I'm doing (although it's inadvertent) because generally we go for a long cruise every weekend. Not quite 10 hours but I'll run the engine a bit longer in future.

 

I think I get it now. It's actually quite simple.

 

1) LA batteries get harder to charge the closer they get to full.

2) Leaving batteries a little bit empty kills their capacity over time.

3) Ergo, you want to fill them to the brim as often as possible to prolong their life.

 

8 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

That voltage is a bit low, its probably the regulator fitted to your alternator. You really need to be 14+ IMO

It might just be that I've killed the top 10% of my battery by never fully charging it. I'll see what happens once I put solar in. I had planned to upgrade my battery bank at the same time as the solar, but after this conversation I think what makes more sense is to install the PV panels and solar charger utilising my current battery and make sure everything is working properly (including the human operating the system) before I install new batteries.

 

8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Absolutely NOT.

 

The case for lithium is that they will suck up the WHOLE 70A of your alternator output ALL THE TIME, and they don't need to be mollycoddled by charging them fully every day/week like LA batts. They can be charged to whatever you like, whenever you like, with bugger all degradation resulting.

But this is exactly what I'm saying! The best case for lithium is that LA batteries have to be fully charged periodically - this is very inconvenient at times, during winter for example, when there is no sun and you perhaps aren't as keen for long cruises as usual. However due to their great expense, and the fact that they can be quite dangerous if mishandled, I'm still keen to weigh up the cost of Li against simply replacing LA batts every couple of years because I'm not charging them properly in the winter.

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57 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

It might just be that I've killed the top 10% of my battery by never fully charging it.

You don't 'kill' battery voltage, you 'kill' capacity (Ah)

 

You are only getting 13(ish) volts because that is what your alternator is outputting - get another alternator regulator (many are just 'plug in') - 14.4 volts is very common.

 

Apologies for the 'flash' but you can just see than mine is 14.4v (just below the word 'Cargo')

 

 

IMG_20151211_161109.jpg

Alternator Wiring.jpg

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4 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Looks like 14.6 to me Alan...

Could well be - not got 'me specs on' (and, have a failing memory)

 

Edit - it is 14.5v

I keep this in my 'spares listings'

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131159425926?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D131159425926%26_rdc%3D1

 

It was £6.99 when I bought them - now £7.50

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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The "budgie" perch seats - it's another link in the potential accident chain.

 

  • Situation - reverse - most likely to sweep your tiller round violently
  • Stand in arc of tiller - most likely to knock you overboard
  • Reverse - prop will draw you into the blades
  • Budgie seat - fulcrum to ensure you go in head first

 

Who's a pretty boy then?

 

Classic risk assessment - of the hazards presented, low probability but terrible consequences.

 

One often forgets one is standing ontop of a mincing machine.

 

 

 

 

Edited by mark99
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13.8v is only the start of charging. Float is 13.2 to 13.6. 

Unless the are charged to 14.2-4 it will either take for ever or they are not charged. Thats why ardvarcs circumnavicate the regulator after 15 mins and push the volts up to 14.4, and do this at least 3 times in an hour. When our ardvark goes live it pushes the doubles the reading on the ammeter, and you can hear the load change.

we have a very simple system and low power needs but it still takes circa 3 hrs to recharge at 12.3 rested state, which i try not to go below.

solar makes a massive difference. The batteries are getting something almost from first light and even if it doesnt start to charge  properly it raises the voltages, and slows the decline, and its automatic...

 

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Im also not sure if you are better with less capacity fully charged or more capacity partialy charged ( which rapidly becomes less capacity through sulphation). I tend to the second so only have notional 200 amp hrs. But we go  the land of sun in uk winter.

certainly on our last living boat in the uk (800amp hrs advec 120 alternator) and good but 1990s monitoring we killed one set of battery in 2 years whilst off grid.

really you need a silent plumbed in genset

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5 minutes ago, mark99 said:

The "budgie" perch seats - it's another link in the potential accident chain.

 

  • Situation - reverse - most likely to sweep your tiller round violently
  • Stand in arc of tiller - most likely to knock you overboard
  • Reverse - prop will draw you into the blades
  • Budgie seat - fulcrum to ensure you go in head first

 

Who's a pretty boy then?

 

Classic risk assessment - of the hazards presented, low probability but terrible consequences.

 

One often forgets one is standing ontop of a mincing machine.

 

 

 

 

Risk assessment is probably the right approach.  I can't see a mechanism which would cause a tiller to "sweep round violently" when going ahead.  I can certainly see that being a risk  when reversing, but I wonder what other risks are in store to eliminate anyone daft enough to steer a narrowboat sitting down when going backwards?

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13.8v is only the start of charging. Float is 13.2 to 13.6. 

Unless the are charged to 14.2-4 it will either take for ever or they are not charged. Thats why ardvarcs circumnavicate the regulator after 15 mins and push the volts up to 14.4, and do this at least 3 times in an hour. When our ardvark goes live it pushes the doubles the reading on the ammeter, and you can hear the load change.

we have a very simple system and low power needs but it still takes circa 3 hrs to recharge at 12.3 rested state, which i try not to go below.

solar makes a massive difference. The batteries are getting something almost from first light and even if it doesnt start to charge  properly it raises the voltages, and slows the decline, and its automatic...

 

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You don't 'kill' battery voltage, you 'kill' capacity (Ah)

 

You are only getting 13(ish) volts because that is what your alternator is outputting - get another alternator regulator (many are just 'plug in') - 14.4 volts is very common.

 

Apologies for the 'flash' but you can just see than mine is 14.4v (just below the word 'Cargo')

 

Sorry perhaps I wasn't clear. I start the engine to recharge the battery when the voltmeter reads 12.1V (at a minimum, frequently it is higher than this). While charging, the voltage jumps up to 14.5 (I think). After an hours' charging, I turn off the engine. The voltage then reads around 13.8V. This is the highest I've ever seen the battery, so I presumed that meant "fully charged", but after the above conversation I realise is probably around 95% charged.
 

56 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

daft enough to steer a narrowboat sitting down when going backwards

 

1 hour ago, mark99 said:

The "budgie" perch seats - it's another link in the potential accident chain.

 

To be fair, no one has commented on the fact that the seat diagram I posted shows the tiller arm sweeping underneath the seat, rather than into the seat/steerer as in all of these comments and pictures. If you are perched on a seat that is positioned out of the way of the tiller arm as such, the risk will be significantly reduced, I think.

Even the boaters handbook on page 11 merely says "On a traditional or semi-trad narrowboat, stand in front of the small rear deck and not beside the tiller so you won’t fall off when making sharp turns or going into reverse. Don’t let passengers stand or sit in the way of the tiller."

What more do you want, seat belts??

 

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26 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

The voltage then reads around 13.8V.

That is surface charge you are measuring, not the 'battery voltage'.

After you have run the engine, wait 2 hours with NOTHING either going in or out of the battery. That then is the battery voltage.

 

To check the capacity of the battery (a rough method) :-

Charge the battery to what you consider full.

Wait for the surface charge to be absorbed.

Put a known load (around 4 - 5 amps is ideal) onto the battery.

Continuously check the battery voltage until it gets down to 12.1 volts.

 

That has then used (roughly) 50% of its capacity.

 

If it has taken 10 hours, with a 5 amp load,  to get  to 12.1 volts then you have used 50Ah so your battery capacity is 100Ah

If it has taken 5 hours, with a 5 amp load,  to get  to 12.1 volts then you have used 25Ah so your battery capacity is 50Ah (assuming a 110Ah battery - when new - it is now virtually knackered as it only retains 50% of it original capacity)

 

Old fashioned car halogen headlights are 55-60 watts so if you use one of those you have a 'nominal' 5 amp

 

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products/0579146/?grossPrice=Y&cm_mmc=UK-PLA-DS3A-_-google-_-CSS_UK_EN_Lighting-_-Halogen_Lamps|Automotive_Halogen_Lamps-_-PRODUCT_GROUP&matchtype=&pla-546053811838&gclid=Cj0KCQjwkoDmBRCcARIsAG3xzl9U5eeDCkO1AAeJow9YXLmhTdPTMr6IZuX_5M14NwhH9gN6waNa7o8aAgY6EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

Risk assessment is probably the right approach.  I can't see a mechanism which would cause a tiller to "sweep round violently" when going ahead.

 

The mechanism is very unlikely, but is a log fouling a propeller blade and getting pulled sideways through the gap between the prop and the leading edge of the rudder. The leading edge of the rudder (the flight blade, I think its called) gets shoved forcefully across to one side, along with the tiller arm. 

 

In astern, the most common mechanism is simply the boat going backwards into the bank, wharfside, pontoon or other obstruction that is to low for the stern fender to hit first. The rudder blade protruding from the back gets shoved over to one side, along with the tiller arm. and in goes the person standing within its arc. 

 

The astern one is particularly nasty though as with the engine still in gear, the flow of water the victim falls into is under the boat and into the blade, so the victim gets sucked into the blade. I was present when a woman died this way, so I've given it a LOT of thought...

 

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The mechanism is very unlikely, but is a log fouling a propeller blade and getting pulled sideways through the gap between the prop and the leading edge of the rudder. The leading edge of the rudder (the flight blade, I think its called) gets shoved forcefully across to one side, along with the tiller arm. 

 

In astern, the most common mechanism is simply the boat going backwards into the bank, wharfside, pontoon or other obstruction that is to low for the stern fender to hit first. The rudder blade protruding from the back gets shoved over to one side, along with the tiller arm.

 

 

When driving 'off-road' (or even on some roads) NEVER put your thumbs on the inside of the steering wheel, or they WILL get broken !

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

When driving 'off-road' (or even on some roads) NEVER put your thumbs on the inside of the steering wheel, or they WILL get broken !

 

Similarly when hand-starting one of the bigger Listers, apparently!

 

If it fires before you quite get it to TDC, your thumbs or hands fall off. 

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2 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

13.8v is only the start of charging. Float is 13.2 to 13.6. 

Unless the are charged to 14.2-4 it will either take for ever or they are not charged. Thats why ardvarcs circumnavicate the regulator after 15 mins and push the volts up to 14.4, and do this at least 3 times in an hour. When our ardvark goes live it pushes the doubles the reading on the ammeter, and you can hear the load change.

we have a very simple system and low power needs but it still takes circa 3 hrs to recharge at 12.3 rested state, which i try not to go below.

solar makes a massive difference. The batteries are getting something almost from first light and even if it doesnt start to charge  properly it raises the voltages, and slows the decline, and its automatic...

 

 

This ardvark of yours, presumably it is some kind of ampeater? 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aardvark

 

???

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