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Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Can't help but disagree.

 

In my personal experience it takes around a month to notice the new batts are not performing quite how they did when new, then a further month of head-scratching to work out WHY they are still degrading. And that part of the reason is your SmartGauge is reading wrong. By now their performance roughly reduced to match that of the batts you took out....

 

So I predict Ivan will take TWO months to wreck his first set of brand new batts... 

 

 

 

 

Any advance on 2 months ?

 

Shal we open a 'book' ?

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On a narrowboat, the rudder normally has a forward projection in front of the pivot line in addition to the classic following portion.  It is this, catching on an obstruction, that forces the tiller over fiercely.  My experience is that you get a hefty whallop!  

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14 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Can't help but disagree.

 

In my personal experience it takes around a month to notice the new batts are not performing quite how they did when new, then a further month of head-scratching to work out WHY they are still degrading. And that part of the reason is your SmartGauge is reading wrong. By now their performance roughly reduced to match that of the batts you took out....

 

So I predict Ivan will take TWO months to wreck his first set of brand new batts... 

 

 

 

 

He only has one Mike and its six months old and still going strong

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Have a look at this chart - the 1st line is a 70a alternator, look at the difference in output at different revs and temperature.

The 70a alternator is outputting 20 amps at 1500 rpm (cold) and 15 amps at 1500 rpm (hot)

 

1 hour ago, system 4-50 said:

Tee Hee!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I gratefully accept the correction! It makes sense to me given that experimentation has showed that 45-60 mins is required to fully charge the batteries.

 

So, how can I work out the Ah I'm actually getting from my alternator from 60 minutes of idling the engine? If it is dependent on multiple factors including the draw demanded by the battery, the RPM of the engine, the pulley ratio, and the temperature of the alternator, I presume this is then impossible to tell without some sort of gauge that you attach to the charging system? (I've seen quite a bit of disdain for SmartGauge. Recommendations for such would be welcome).

 

The alternator unfortunately does not have any sticker on it giving any sort of rating. The Beta BV1505 / Beta 38 apparently comes with a 70Ah alternator as standard (https://betamarine.co.uk/portfolio-item/beta-38/#panel20310620664) but also has a 120Ah option.

 

So let's say that we have an engine idle speed of 750 RPM, a 2:1 ratio and it takes 20 minutes for the alternator to become "hot". This means we'll have 20A for 0.33h and 15A for 0.67h. So my hour of charging is yielding 16.67 Ah twice a day, or 33.33 Ah per day.

 

That's still within range of the 30Ah from my above usage audit (which was fairly pessimistic).

 

36 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Correct but he is planning on installing an Inverter, washing machine and 'stuff'.

The learning curve needs to be activated before then.

Indeed. Lots I need to learn before I take the plunge. Believe it or not I have read through the sticky threads on batteries, I admit I am still green. I'm hopefully making some of the mistakes with my current cheapo battery while I learn. Also it should be noted that I'm hoping to charge my batteries mostly from solar. So my current situation is not going to be very similar to the future. Once I have done the sums for my new system I'll post them here so you guys can tear me apart ?

 

33 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would some instrumentation to show what the charger and batteries are doing should be quite high on the shopping list, I am somewhat surprised that a ex hire boat only has I battery.

What instrumentation would you recommend? Currently I only have a single voltmeter on my single battery.

 

In case you missed it, the battery certainly isn't original. I put this battery and a split charge relay in when I bought the boat 6 months ago. The previous owner had lithium batteries and a Victron inverter which he took with him. I believe originally these boats had two batteries apart from the starter - one to run the Ebersplutter and one for everything else.

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2 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Hm! Trying to think how this would happen. If I'm moving forwards, how would hitting a log cause the tiller arm to swing hard port/startboard? Not saying it can't happen (evidently it does, given the death in 2006 you posted about) but I don't understand how the physics of that would work out.

 

In any event, since my arms are slightly longer than where my buttocks are when seated, I had in mind something like the following, which would obviate my being knocked overboard, though it could end up with a nasty knock on the shins in the event of a log strike! (The arc of the tiller indicated and the proposed seat in a pattern)

 

image.png.9e98792c88872e0be42a4429c1acbc28.png

 

 

 

 

 

Ivan & Alice, not getting at you but, I struggle why some newbies to the canals appear to disregard the wisdom and experience of boaters garnered from over 200 years.

 

Standing or sitting within the arc of the tiller is not wise, or are high seats. A couple of years ago the gent in the picture went into the Harecastle tunnel seated thus. The picture is in the public domain so I don't feel an issue in showing it. Let us just say his boating days are over and he leaves a widow behind. Okay one in a million accident but it can happen. The world is full of "it can't happen to me" people who are totally shocked when it does.

article-2711749-2028206000000578-548_634x816.jpg

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2635127/Father-drowned-Harecastle-Tunnel-hitting-head-boating-holiday.html

Edited by Ray T
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11 minutes ago, Ray T said:

Ivan & Alice, not getting at you but, I struggle why some newbies to the canals appear to disregard the wisdom and experience of boaters garnered from over 200 years. 

 

Standing or sitting within the ard of the tiller is not wise, or are high seats. A couple of years ago the gent in the picture went into the Harecastle tunnel seated thus. The picture is in the public domain so I don't feel an issue in showing it. Let us just say his boating days are over and he leaves a widow behind.

Thanks @Ray T, I do appreciate the wisdom and experience. I'm sorry if something I have said makes it appear that I don't. Note that I don't have the seat I drew there. I posted the design specifically to get feedback.

 

The deceased in the pic you posted has a very different seat to the one I proposed. In my diagram, the tiller arm passes under the seat. Note that this wasn't a safety feature but a lazy feature, intended to allow me to steer hard to starboard without having to alight my seat! No one until now had warned me to not stand in the tiller arc. This is new information to me. I'm therefore grateful for the advice offered here and will be much more aware of it in future.

I have much more pressing things to deal with than a seat while I drive, in any event, so this is not something I'll add in the near future. At present I generally stand directly in front of the tiller and steer with my butt crack, thus freeing my hands for my cuppa. I'm sure that breaks all sorts of boating codes!

Edited by ivan&alice
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17 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

At present I generally stand directly in front of the tiller and steer with my butt crack, thus freeing my hands for my cuppa. I'm sure that breaks all sorts of boating codes!

No - that's exactly the way it should be done.

 

Re the battery charging - you simply need a meter that measures amps in and amps out.

 

There are a number on ebay.

Or

You can go for a recognised brand / model I find the BMV good enough (on my Cat)

 

 

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44 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

 

 No one until now had warned me to not stand in the tiller arc. This is new information to me. I'm therefore grateful for the advice offered here and will be much more aware of it in future.

 

Have you read the Boaters Handbook? If not it is well worth reading. It is full of hints and tips and has always included a warning about not standing or sitting the arc of the tiller (page 11 in this edition I think).

Here is a link to the latest edition which was released by CRT last week.

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/141.pdf

 

 

Howard

 

 

 

 

Edited by howardang
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Like Tommy Coopers collapsible magic wand a magic collapsible tiller arm is needed.  Tensioned so that a sideways biff will collapse it into a state of harmless limpness and then regain a  stout erection once moe when the steerer has shifted clear of it.

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22 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Like Tommy Coopers collapsible magic wand a magic collapsible tiller arm is needed.  Tensioned so that a sideways biff will collapse it into a state of harmless limpness and then regain a  stout erection once moe when the steerer has shifted clear of it.

I'd be interested in learning more about this process....

 

 

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27 minutes ago, NB Esk said:

I'd be interested in learning more about this process....

 

 

Its quite simpl really.  Just a row of say Sorbo rubber balls with holes in them and through these holes a strong elestic shock cord is threaded, and stretch tensioned to the users preference and tying off at each end with a nice big knot.. The use of square section toy wooden building bricks  instead would make the thing more stiffer and be more suited to the tougher and heavier steerer.

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2 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

 

I gratefully accept the correction! It makes sense to me given that experimentation has showed that 45-60 mins is required to fully charge the batteries.

 

So, how can I work out the Ah I'm actually getting from my alternator from 60 minutes of idling the engine? If it is dependent on multiple factors including the draw demanded by the battery, the RPM of the engine, the pulley ratio, and the temperature of the alternator, I presume this is then impossible to tell without some sort of gauge that you attach to the charging system? (I've seen quite a bit of disdain for SmartGauge. Recommendations for such would be welcome).

 

The alternator unfortunately does not have any sticker on it giving any sort of rating. The Beta BV1505 / Beta 38 apparently comes with a 70Ah alternator as standard (https://betamarine.co.uk/portfolio-item/beta-38/#panel20310620664) but also has a 120Ah option.

 

So let's say that we have an engine idle speed of 750 RPM, a 2:1 ratio and it takes 20 minutes for the alternator to become "hot". This means we'll have 20A for 0.33h and 15A for 0.67h. So my hour of charging is yielding 16.67 Ah twice a day, or 33.33 Ah per day.

 

That's still within range of the 30Ah from my above usage audit (which was fairly pessimistic).

 

Indeed. Lots I need to learn before I take the plunge. Believe it or not I have read through the sticky threads on batteries, I admit I am still green. I'm hopefully making some of the mistakes with my current cheapo battery while I learn. Also it should be noted that I'm hoping to charge my batteries mostly from solar. So my current situation is not going to be very similar to the future. Once I have done the sums for my new system I'll post them here so you guys can tear me apart ?

 

What instrumentation would you recommend? Currently I only have a single voltmeter on my single battery.

 

In case you missed it, the battery certainly isn't original. I put this battery and a split charge relay in when I bought the boat 6 months ago. The previous owner had lithium batteries and a Victron inverter which he took with him. I believe originally these boats had two batteries apart from the starter - one to run the Ebersplutter and one for everything else.

I would suggest a minimum of a digital volt meter and a digital ammeter, unfortunately your theory  above  is not quite correct because as a battery reaches full charge the current falls dramatically, this is know as tail current and with your single battery you need to look for a charge current of 1 amp at about 14.4 volts. Also check that the previous owner didn't change the regulator in the alternator. what voltage are you charging to at the moment?

2 hours ago, Ray T said:

Ivan & Alice, not getting at you but, I struggle why some newbies to the canals appear to disregard the wisdom and experience of boaters garnered from over 200 years.

 

Standing or sitting within the arc of the tiller is not wise, or are high seats. A couple of years ago the gent in the picture went into the Harecastle tunnel seated thus. The picture is in the public domain so I don't feel an issue in showing it. Let us just say his boating days are over and he leaves a widow behind. Okay one in a million accident but it can happen. The world is full of "it can't happen to me" people who are totally shocked when it does.

article-2711749-2028206000000578-548_634x816.jpg

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2635127/Father-drowned-Harecastle-Tunnel-hitting-head-boating-holiday.html

I have seen worse, A stainless steel high bar stool just stood in that position with the steerer sitting on it

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3 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

What instrumentation would you recommend? Currently I only have a single voltmeter on my single battery.

 

 

Something like this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100A-Digital-Voltmeter-ammeter-temperature-coulomb-capacity-power-METER-shunt/223266141679?hash=item33fbb2f5ef:g:1tcAAOSwLSZcArT4

 

 

s-l1600.jpg

Gives you the battery voltage, charge/discharge current, Current power into/out of the batteries, cumulative amp hours since the unot was reset.  Note that this meter measures current in both directions (i.e. when charging and discharging), whereas many on Ebay only measure current in one direction. This one uses a shunt to measure the current, but there are also versions available using a Hall effect sensor, which may be easier to install, but are less accurate.

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Something like this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100A-Digital-Voltmeter-ammeter-temperature-coulomb-capacity-power-METER-shunt/223266141679?hash=item33fbb2f5ef:g:1tcAAOSwLSZcArT4

 

 

s-l1600.jpg

Gives you the battery voltage, charge/discharge current, Current power into/out of the batteries, cumulative amp hours since the unot was reset.  Note that this meter measures current in both directions (i.e. when charging and discharging), whereas many on Ebay only measure current in one direction. This one uses a shunt to measure the current, but there are also versions available using a Hall effect sensor, which may be easier to install, but are less accurate.

I have a 300A one, if you want to run a 3Kw inverter you will need bigger than the 100A one

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35 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Its quite simpl really.  Just a row of say Sorbo rubber balls with holes in them and through these holes a strong elestic shock cord is threaded, and stretch tensioned to the users preference and tying off at each end with a nice big knot.. The use of square section toy wooden building bricks  instead would make the thing more stiffer and be more suited to the tougher and heavier steerer.

You'll be drummed out of the Magic Circle for divulging this information.

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2 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

So let's say that we have an engine idle speed of 750 RPM, a 2:1 ratio and it takes 20 minutes for the alternator to become "hot". This means we'll have 20A for 0.33h and 15A for 0.67h. So my hour of charging is yielding 16.67 Ah twice a day, or 33.33 Ah per day.

This suggests that you do not understand what is happening. For your battery/s to last they must be fully charged which means getting the last few amphours in.  The rate at which the battery will accept them gets smaller and smaller as the number needed gets smaller, regardless of alternator size.  It is not linear. If the take is 15A after 0.33h then it will be less after 0.4h . It is unlikely that you can fully charge a battery in an hour unless the capacity has been destroyed.

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3 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

... experimentation has showed that 45-60 mins is required to fully charge the batteries.

Experimentation shows that it takes between 8 and 12 hours to fully charge a lead acid battery from around 50% SoC. so you’re out by a factor of 10. 

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33 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Experimentation shows that it takes between 8 and 12 hours to fully charge a lead acid battery from around 50% SoC. so you’re out by a factor of 10. 

 

12 hours is typical rather than 8 in my experience.

 

But it depends what you mean by 'fully charged', dunnit...! 

 

:icecream:

 

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1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Experimentation shows that it takes between 8 and 12 hours to fully charge a lead acid battery from around 50% SoC. so you’re out by a factor of 10. 

This is where the solar scores as it can keep charging for as long as the sun shines

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