Boat hierarchy

[Alan de Enfield]

29 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I do want to get a nice high perch chair that I can sit on and steer,

NEVER EVER sit or stand within the arc of the tiller arm.

One day you will hit a log (or similar) and the tiller arm will knock you overboard - probably with a broken leg / arm / ribs and you will struggle to get back on board.

[ditchcrawler]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

NEVER EVER sit or stand within the arc of the tiller arm.

One day you will hit a log (or similar) and the tiller arm will knock you overboard - probably with a broken leg / arm / ribs and you will struggle to get back on board.

I think the BSS recorded one death like that last year

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think the BSS recorded one death like that last year

I think there have been several but I didn't want to start the argument of being 'sensationalist' and the point getting lost in the usual verbiage.

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think there have been several but I didn't want to start the argument of being 'sensationalist' and the point getting lost in the usual verbiage.

I cant find the report now, it may have been in a CRT report, but I haven't read any news report of it.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I cant find the report now, it may have been in a CRT report, but I haven't read any news report of it.

 

This is where good practice comes in by ensuring that the steerer is *always* positioned in front of the tiller

 

And that's why I shudder when I see folks sitting on cruiser stern rails while steering in reverse - If that tiller kicks with 17 ton of boat behind it, you are not going to stop it from throwing you over the rail or cracking ribs!

 

It's sad to think that this man died a horrible death which was so easily preventable

 

I'm sure I speak for many here when I say our condolences and thoughts are with his loved ones

 

 

 

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Definitely. Having never owned any other boat I don't know what a trad would be like. I think my point was that I was very keen on a 57' trad, but ended up with a 65' cruiser and very happy with it. The stern style, it turns out, is less important than I thought. I do want to get a nice high perch chair that I can sit on and steer, so I can imagine sitting on the roof being nice. We use the back deck to store and easily load/unload heavy things like bicycles. And when cruising it's nice to be able to have five or six friends around.

 

 

But does your trad provide engine accessibility like that?!

 

We run our engine 45-60 min twice a day, and I reckon that's too much. Our battery never drops below 12.1V. We only run the 12V fridge while the engine is on, though, which has been fine over winter but is increasingly becoming a problem. We don't have anything we need 240V for yet. We desperately want a washing machine though. Big electrical upgrade on the horizon then - inverter, solar panels, extra batteries. The main thing that saves us is that we have laptops that charge via a 45W USB car charger. We have very smart LED lighting that is all individually controlled and we're careful with it. Then there are our water pumps. We don't use power for anything else!

To be the bearer of bad news if your batteries drop to 12.1 volts they are going to be cream crackered very fast! LAs have to be fully charged as often as you can and sitting at low voltages causes sulphation which is not good for battery capacity, it might say 110 amps on the box but in reality they only contain 55 amps! and allowing them to drop down to low voltages reduces them much further. Sorry

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

We run our engine 45-60 min twice a day, and I reckon that's too much

And I reckon it’s much too little. 

[MtB]

8 hours ago, WotEver said:

And I reckon it’s much too little. 

 

And too much if moored near me!

 

Pretty anti-social in my view, running an engine that much unless moving (which the OP may well be). 

 

 

[MtB]

10 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

But does your trad provide engine accessibility like that?!

 

 

The engines in my trads have FAR better access than that!!

 

For example:

 

 

[mark99]

That's the point of a trad trad..... the engine is easy to access even if it's raining.... The plumbed in diesel genny second auxiliary engine <minus sound proof covers> is in the engine room too so ditto -

 

 

 

 

 

Main engine below<white sound proof cocoon covers now on genny>

 

 

 

 

 

 

If minded, you can keep a dry clean bilge too.

 

Apologies for the blade of grass sitting in the bilge.... 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by mark99

[MtB]

Yes. Maintenance of an engine under a cruiser stern is a right ball-ache in my limited experience.

 

 

[mark99]

In the cuiser stern above - how does the rainwater drain out of the footwell?

 

NB Mike - what paint did you use for the gleniffer?

Edited April 23, 2019 by mark99

[peterboat]

9 minutes ago, mark99 said:

That's the point of a trad trad..... the engine is easy to access even if it's raining.... The plumbed in diesel genny second auxiliary engine <minus sound proof covers> is in the engine room too so ditto -

 

 

 

 

 

Main engine below<white sound proof cocoon covers now on genny>

 

 

 

 

 

 

If minded, you can keep a dry clean bilge too.

 

Apologies for the blade of grass sitting in the bilge.... 

 

 

Lovely does the genny heat water in the cauliflower like Mikes and mine?

 

nny heat water in the cauliflower?

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, mark99 said:

NB Mike - what paint did you use for the gleniffer?

 

Red paint...

 

[mark99]

Peter - no - the big lump to right and back of engine does heat the calorifier. It's a big diesel boiler that does central heating too (not that we use the central heating - the stove does the heating).

[MtB]

 

 

(More seriously, I didn't paint it, Richard did. I think he used MG red, for MG sports car engines.)

[mark99]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Red paint...

 

 

Having spend ages stripping off failed Gardener Grey paint and recoating with "special" engine enamel this winter I've become interested in paints that last on an engine.

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

(More seriously, I didn't paint it, Richard did. I think he used MG red, for MG sports car engines.)

Lovely engine - will have to look it up. What model is it?

[MtB]

1 minute ago, mark99 said:

 

Having spend ages stripping off failed Gardener Grey paint and recoating with "special" engine enamel this winter I've become interested in paints that last on an engine.

 

I suggest you send Richard a PM then. It's brush-painted but I don't know what type of paint was used. 

 

 

[mark99]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I suggest you send Richard a PM then. It's brush-painted but I don't know what type of paint was used. 

 

 

Guess DB2?

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, mark99 said:

Lovely engine - will have to look it up. What model is it?

 

It's a Gleniffer DB2. Side valve twin cylinder, 25hp. Sounds wonderful!

 

 

 

 

[aracer]

12 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

We use the back deck to store and easily load/unload heavy things like bicycles. And when cruising it's nice to be able to have five or six friends around.

I use the engine room to store things I wouldn't want to leave outside. Not big enough for bicycles, but I wouldn't want to leave mine outside, so they have to live under the cratch, though it usually contains a couple of unicycles - very specialist requirement, but I'm so relieved I didn't get a cruiser as I find it handy having a unicycle where I can just pull it out to ride off to set the next lock etc. Counter or front deck is fine for loading. About the only advantage you've listed there is storage for friends - as already mentioned mine have to slum it on the roof!

12 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

But does your trad provide engine accessibility like that?!

I don't have a trad trad, but still better access than that as I can sit alongside the engine rather than having to bend down. Toolboxes and spares are immediately at hand.

[jetzi]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

NEVER EVER sit or stand within the arc of the tiller arm.

One day you will hit a log (or similar) and the tiller arm will knock you overboard - probably with a broken leg / arm / ribs and you will struggle to get back on board. 

Hm! Trying to think how this would happen. If I'm moving forwards, how would hitting a log cause the tiller arm to swing hard port/startboard? Not saying it can't happen (evidently it does, given the death in 2006 you posted about) but I don't understand how the physics of that would work out.

 

In any event, since my arms are slightly longer than where my buttocks are when seated, I had in mind something like the following, which would obviate my being knocked overboard, though it could end up with a nasty knock on the shins in the event of a log strike! (The arc of the tiller indicated and the proposed seat in a pattern)

 

 

11 hours ago, peterboat said:

if your batteries drop to 12.1 volts they are going to be cream crackered very fast! LAs have to be fully charged as often as you can and sitting at low voltages causes sulphation which is not good for battery capacity, it might say 110 amps on the box but in reality they only contain 55 amps! and allowing them to drop down to low voltages reduces them much furthe

11 hours ago, WotEver said:

And I reckon it’s much too little. 

 

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And too much if moored near me! Pretty anti-social in my view, running an engine that much unless moving (which the OP may well be). 

Well let's see. Our Beta 38 engine has the standard 70A alternator I think, which implies 70Ah of charge for an hour running. This alone suggests running for more than an hour is wasteful, since I only have (effectively) 55Ah in my battery. I worked out my energy requirements as follows:

 

Fresh water pump: 0.25h/day, 4.5A, 54W. = 1.125Ah, 13.5Wh
Shower waste pump: 0.1h/day, 8A, 96W. = 0.8Ah, 9.6Wh                        
LED lighting: 5h/day, 0.6A, 2.4W. = 3Ah, 36Wh
Device charging: 4h/day, 3.75A, 45W. = 15Ah, 180Wh
Shoreline fridge: 2h/day, 5A, 60W. = 10Ah, 120Wh. (total guess - they only specify 0.95Ah "average", which won't be mine if it's only on twice a day)

 

Total: 30Ah per day.

 

So, even if I double this to take inefficiencies into account, it seems to me like I'm running the engine more than enough.

Regarding decharging to 12.1V. I'm following the directions on the tin, which say that at 12.1V the battery is 50% discharged which is as low as you should go. After 60 mins of running we're back up to 13.8V. The previous owner took his lithium setup with him, so I installed the cheapest 110Ah battery I could find and a split charge controller to tide me over until, well, around about now. It's now 6 months old and still seems to be going strong, but I consider this battery a "training wheels" battery anyway - I don't mind having to throw it out when I upgrade my electrics.

 

Obviously if we're moving we don't need to run to charge batteries. We never run outside the 8am / 8pm window, but you're not wrong and I do try to be as considerate as I can. I do have plans to get solar up and running now that it's summer. Intending to add enough wattage and our Ebersplutter for hot water such that we will never have to run the engine when moored. Until then, I hope our neighbours will be patient with us! No complaints so far...

 

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

The engines in my trads have FAR better access than that!!

 

3 hours ago, mark99 said:

hat's the point of a trad trad..... the engine is easy to access even if it's raining.... The plumbed in diesel genny second auxiliary engine <minus sound proof covers> is in the engine room too

I stand corrected! The trads I looked at often seemed to have a much more pokey engine compartment, but that's not always the case. Still, if you have a dedicated engine room taking up a bunch of space, then you're losing out on one of the advantages of having a trad, namely more living space.

I can't fault your photos, absolutely beautiful. Very jealous! The paint is peeling off my engine - would love to repaint it someday but that is pretty low down on my priority list unfortunately. And a plumbed in diesel genny in your engine room, connected to the cauliflower?! Marvellous.

 

56 minutes ago, aracer said:

I use the engine room to store things I wouldn't want to leave outside.

Me too - there is quite a bit of space in the engine compartment. I need to get a lock for it before I store anything valuable in there, though.

 

57 minutes ago, aracer said:

About the only advantage you've listed there is storage for friends - as already mentioned mine have to slum it on the roof!

You are right. As I said, I really don't think there is much in it regarding stern style, too much emphasis is placed on this. I think I prefer the cruiser, but I certainly would consider a trad next time.

 

Anyways, we might be getting a bit too deep into the weeds to help the OP. @Fly Navy your original question was regarding a hierarchy of boat builders, I think? When I was looking for my boat, I created a very controversial poll with all the boat manufacturers I could find on Apollo Duck at the time. There are lots of manufacturers missing who simply weren't represented in the second hand market at the time, but this should give some idea of a hierarchy of boat builders, at least in the opinions of this forum.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

Well let's see. Our Beta 38 engine has the standard 70A alternator I think, which implies 70Ah of charge for an hour running.

Unfortunately you have fallen into the trap that all newbies fall into.

 

The battery dictates the charge from the alternator - the alternator does NOT dictate the charge to the battery. 

All that your 70 amp alternator means is that it will never produce more than 70 amps how ever much the battery needs.

 

Simply as an example :

 

Your 70 amp alternator may only put out 70 amps when running at 6000 rpm.

It will then put out 70 amps for (maybe) 20 minutes, it will then put out (maybe) 50 amps for 20 minutes, it will then put out (maybe) 30 amps for 20 minutes and gradually dropping down until you get to 2 or 3 amps for 8 hours - THEN the battery can be called 'fully charged'.

Your Ah rate is nothing like 70A

 

Now if you alternator is just 'ticking over at 1000 rpm than you can work on a very small fraction of the 'rated' output.

 

You are only getting a fraction of what you think you are getting.

 

There are some excellent posts on here about battery charging, it may be an idea to read up on how it actually works, before, you spend £1000 on a full-size battery bank, and kill it within a month.

 

Have a look at this chart - the 1st line is a 70a alternator, look at the difference in output at different revs and temperature.

The 70a alternator is outputting 20 amps at 1500 rpm (cold) and 15 amps at 1500 rpm (hot)

 

Working on your engine tick-over of 750 rpm and a 2:1 pulley ratio/

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[system 4-50]

1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

Well let's see. Our Beta 38 engine has the standard 70A alternator I think, which implies 70Ah of charge for an hour running.

Tee Hee!

Edited April 23, 2019 by system 4-50

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There are some excellent posts on here about battery charging, it may be an idea to red up on how it actually works, before, you spend £1000 on a full-size battery bank, and kill it within a month.

 

Can't help but disagree.

 

In my personal experience it takes around a month to notice the new batts are not performing quite how they did when new, then a further month of head-scratching to work out WHY they are still degrading. And that part of the reason is your SmartGauge is reading wrong. By now their performance roughly reduced to match that of the batts you took out....

 

So I predict Ivan will take TWO months to wreck his first set of brand new batts...