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Strettonman

Can anyone recommend an invertor

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This is great stuff. Thanks for everyones help. I think I will spend my Sunday morning digesting all this with a cuppa and pen & pad in hand (if the misus will let me). 

It has already saved me a job. The boat has a 12v/240v/gas fridge onboard that we’ve not really tried to get going. When I strip the boat out I was going to try to get it working in my garage but it looks like the best place for it is the tip. 

Its triggered loads more questions (solar, fridge types, location of invertor, battery banks......) but I’ll try to absorb this lot first. 

Steep learning curve but Thanks again. 

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16 minutes ago, Strettonman said:

Maybe I WILL see how the fridge runs off gas rather than dismiss it totally. It will give me a chance to compare performance. 

From the BSS website.

Petrol engine boats and gas fridges do not mix very well.

 

 

There have been numerous explosions resulting from the use of gas refrigerators with naked flames on petrol-powered boats. The low level permanent flame of a pilot light or burner could be the prime source of ignition for any stray petrol fuel or vapour. To prevent this happening the pilot lights and burners on LPG or paraffin refrigerators installed in boats with a petrol engine must be completely enclosed by a suitable flame trap.

exclamation.gif When starting to re-fuel, a flash explosion occurred that blew out the cabin windows and injured a woman, though fortunately no fire started. It was determined that even with the petrol pump nozzle fully inserted into the deck fuel connection, sufficient petrol vapour was produced to rise over the 175mm coaming, travel along the cockpit floor and into the cabin to be ignited by the permanent low-level burner flame on a LPG fridge. Before starting to fill, the pump attendant had asked specifically if any appliances were operating on board and was told “no”. [8.2]

Combustion air and combustion products must be drawn and expelled through a suitable flame trap. Alternatively, combustion air can be piped to the appliance from outside the vessel, or from a point inside the vessel above the level of any opening to the outside air. [8.2]

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11 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

We only have 12v sockets. Our inverter is only for power tools. Its off 99% of time.

no mains ring on the boat.  We have had 6 boats only 2 with a mains ring. If you dont need mains dont have it. I cant think of much on a boat that you need mains for. 

 

Popcorn ready

Com'on Roland. Admit it. You just like camping?

4 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

I will have some of your popcorn ? here is my twopenneth. We have no 12 volt sockets on this fab purpose built liveaboard boat. We have in excess of thirty mains sockets running both sides of the cabin. We have a brill inverter switched on 24/7 365 that only draws 0.3 of an amp when resting. We have only mains kit onboard. Having mains kit saves us fifteen billion pounds on costs of inferior 12 volt stuff and gives us humungously more choice of kit. We also have hot and cold water pipes both sides of the cabin full length and central heating running full length both sides of the cabin. We also have a dometic travel power on the engine to do any heavy duty work. Af ter buying a mains boat several years ago I am never going back to 12 volt. The lights are 12 volt and pumps etc. All runs full time when off grid from 4 x 110 a/h batteries with zero problems. This boat was specced by a boatyard owner and built at his yard for his personal use and he sure knew what he was doing.

I'm with Smelly on this one. Our inverter runs 24/7. Loads of 240v stuff as it's cheaper and more choice. Separates are best so if your Combi goes down you don't lose inverter, charger and 240v supply like ours did last year. 

660 Ahrs of batteries, cheap victron IP 22 30A charger, cause you don't need anything bigger if you are not CC'ing, and a2KW victon inverter. I'm having a second year birthday party for my cheapo lead acids next week and they are still 90% of original capacity but I make sure they are 100% SoC most days- so make sure you have the ability to charge them. 

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4 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

I will have some of your popcorn ? here is my twopenneth. We have no 12 volt sockets on this fab purpose built liveaboard boat. We have in excess of thirty mains sockets running both sides of the cabin. We have a brill inverter switched on 24/7 365 that only draws 0.3 of an amp when resting. We have only mains kit onboard. Having mains kit saves us fifteen billion pounds on costs of inferior 12 volt stuff and gives us humungously more choice of kit. We also have hot and cold water pipes both sides of the cabin full length and central heating running full length both sides of the cabin. We also have a dometic travel power on the engine to do any heavy duty work. Af ter buying a mains boat several years ago I am never going back to 12 volt. The lights are 12 volt and pumps etc. All runs full time when off grid from 4 x 110 a/h batteries with zero problems. This boat was specced by a boatyard owner and built at his yard for his personal use and he sure knew what he was doing.

My heart and intuition say this is wrong, boats like cars and vans are 12volt machines and the inverter should only be switched on to power the few devices that don't work on 12volts. However my head (and this is an electronic engineers head...of sorts) says that the Mr Smelly approach actually has a lot to recommend it. Just make sure that you can't accidentally leave the immersion heater or similar left switched on, and be very careful with the numerous modern devices that never really turn off but just go into a not very sleepy sleep mode.

 

Have not done the calculation but I suspect that if you go100% 240 then the reduced IR (cable resistance) losses probably more than make up for the inverter loss.

 

................Dave

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4 minutes ago, dmr said:

My heart and intuition say this is wrong, boats like cars and vans are 12volt machines and the inverter should only be switched on to power the few devices that don't work on 12volts. However my head (and this is an electronic engineers head...of sorts) says that the Mr Smelly approach actually has a lot to recommend it. Just make sure that you can't accidentally leave the immersion heater or similar left switched on, and be very careful with the numerous modern devices that never really turn off but just go into a not very sleepy sleep mode.

 

Have not done the calculation but I suspect that if you go100% 240 then the reduced IR (cable resistance) losses probably more than make up for the inverter loss.

 

................Dave

We rewired our boat this year to separate all the bits from the combi set up and one of the changes was to only allow the immersion heater to work off incoming 240v and not the inverter.

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If you are starting from scratch you should seriously think about a 24v system using forklift batteries and 24v inverter. Uses half the amps. Can be easily charged using a truck or bus alternator.

Edited by rogeriko

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2 minutes ago, rogeriko said:

If you are starting from scratch you should seriously think about a 24v system using forklift batteries and 24v inverter. Uses half the amps. Can be easily charged using a truck or bus alternator.

 

 

If you do go the 24 volt route make sure you do it 100%.

 

No 'odd' 12v line taps for the phone charger, lights, shower pump etc.

 

There have been a few threads recently where folks were trying to run 50/50 24v and 12v and killed their batteries by trying to tap 12v out of part of the battery bank.

 

(You will also need to consider your engine starting and battery charging requirements most NB engines are 12v).

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Clearly your boat was well built around an expensive mains only system apart from pumps etc. huge investments being made into travel powers, chargers alternators inverters and the like. Im not decrying it or saying anything is wrong with that and im sure it works well.

For non residential use the op was asking about whether you could put 12 sockets in and the answer is yes.

 

a bit like do i have to  go and buy  this range rover to work or is it possible to get there in an old metro instead..

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As you know dr b our boat has hot and cold running water central bleating  two cookers, music, internet,  bluetooth connectivity  living room ,dining room,  kitchen shower room, seperate loo,  laundry 2 bedrooms  engine room , storage for unlimited coal bikes and tut and a 30 ft patio. 

if you have a good imagination.. its not camping

On the other had ,  its a short extension a waste of space hold and an iphone and bluetooth speaker!

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9 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

We rewired our boat this year to separate all the bits from the combi set up and one of the changes was to only allow the immersion heater to work off incoming 240v and not the inverter.

My Victron multi has two AC outputs. One of these only connects to AC in and not to the batteries, via the inverter. This is called BoilerNet on mine, but Victron no longer seem to use that name for this function, though at least some in their current range have the same functionality. The idea is that you connect the immersion heater to this output, so it will only work with a shore line, or generator connected and never from the batteries. Disconnect the shore line, or generator and the immersion heater stops. The other output works either from the AC in, or batteries, with seamless switchover between them for the lower power items you might want always available, or on. Similarly, if you are on shore line, then the Victron multi can be switched to Charger Only, so that if the shore line fails while you are away, it won't automagically switch over to inverter on and kill the batteries.

 

Jen

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16 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

.....Oh yes, I forgot about the patio?

?

I'm quite surprised that the boatbuilders and brokers have not rebranded the cruiser as a Patio Stern, especially those big widebeam "squarebacks".

 

Have been looking at the development plans for the Icknield Port Loop and among the many new "concepts" there is the "yarden".

 

..............Dave

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Roland, I'm surprised you don't refer to your patio as a helicopter landing pad!

You could paint a big 'H' on it.?

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30 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

My Victron multi has two AC outputs. One of these only connects to AC in and not to the batteries, via the inverter.

If your inverter doesn’t have this functionality it is a very simple addition with a contactor (big relay) fed from the incoming mains or, depending on your layout, simply feed the immersion directly from the shore power feed. 

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52 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

The other output works either from the AC in, or batteries, with seamless switchover between them for the lower power items you might want always available, or on. Similarly, if you are on shore line, then the Victron multi can be switched to Charger Only, so that if the shore line fails while you are away, it won't automagically switch over to inverter on and kill the batteries.

 

Jen

My decision to go to separates was because I did not want to rely on One blue box for everything.

Last winter with the combi ON in charger mode, the shore power went down for an hour or so. When it came back on the Combi took a dislike to something and decided not to turn itself on, therefore no 240v to the boat. We were away for a couple of weeks and were glad there were no periods of sub zero temperature - we use oil rads on low when leaving the boat.

Ok, you can never garuntee that the shore power will be 100% when away but you at least think the blue box would do its job. We have now relagated the blue box to inverter only and given up the 'switch to inverter if shore power goes down' function, as I never liked that anyway. I like to know when the inverter is coming on when on shore power.

'Eggs in one basket' does resonate for me!:)

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10 hours ago, dmr said:

My heart and intuition say this is wrong, boats like cars and vans are 12volt machines and the inverter should only be switched on to power the few devices that don't work on 12volts. However my head (and this is an electronic engineers head...of sorts) says that the Mr Smelly approach actually has a lot to recommend it. Just make sure that you can't accidentally leave the immersion heater or similar left switched on, and be very careful with the numerous modern devices that never really turn off but just go into a not very sleepy sleep mode.

 

Have not done the calculation but I suspect that if you go100% 240 then the reduced IR (cable resistance) losses probably more than make up for the inverter loss.

 

................Dave

A VERY good point. My boat is run through a combi, I will change to seperates when I can be arsed lol. I am aware of the immersion problem so whenever we leave the boat for a few days I ensure its turned off. As luck would have it the site had a power cut last night and by sheer luck we had the washing machine on and it went off so I saw the 100 plus amps being drawn by the immersion and turned it off, had I not been onboard it would have been unhappy batteries. The washer is wired so it will only work when mains is on or travel power so thats good, however I fitted the immersion and have to be careful just as you say.

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29 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

A VERY good point. My boat is run through a combi, I will change to seperates when I can be arsed lol. I am aware of the immersion problem so whenever we leave the boat for a few days I ensure its turned off. As luck would have it the site had a power cut last night and by sheer luck we had the washing machine on and it went off so I saw the 100 plus amps being drawn by the immersion and turned it off, had I not been onboard it would have been unhappy batteries. The washer is wired so it will only work when mains is on or travel power so thats good, however I fitted the immersion and have to be careful just as you say.

Prolly best not to get Lithium's just yet then.?

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On 02/03/2019 at 11:43, Tony Brooks said:

[snip]

You can get - at a price - 12V compressor fridges that typically consume less than 50Ah [er day and nowadays maybe 30 Ah.

[snip]

about the lowest energy mains fridge i see uses 64Kw/hours per year.  Can that number be compared to the 30/50Ah?

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Wittenham said:

about the lowest energy mains fridge i see uses 64Kw/hours per year.  Can that number be compared to the 30/50Ah?

 

 

50AHr per day at 12V is 219kWhr per year. 30AHr per day is 131kWhr, so two to three times better than the 12V fridge numbers you give.

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies

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15 minutes ago, Wittenham said:

about the lowest energy mains fridge i see uses 64Kw/hours per year.  Can that number be compared to the 30/50Ah?

 

 

That is 278 Ah per year

You don't specify the duration in your question - if you are looking for 50Ah per year, then the answer is no.

Just now, Jen-in-Wellies said:

50AHr per day at 12V is 219kWhr per year. 30AHr per day is 131kWhr

He is asking about a mains fridge NOT a 12v fridge'

 

17 minutes ago, Wittenham said:

about the lowest energy mains fridge i see uses 64Kw/hours per year.  Can that number be compared to the 30/50Ah?

 

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

He is asking about a mains fridge NOT a 12v fridge'

 

 

I know. He wanted a comparison between a mains fridge quoted at 64kWhrs per year and Tony's figures for a 12V fridge of between 30 and 50Ahrs per day. I converted the 12V fridge consumption values to kwHrs per year, which is how mains fridges are usually described.

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2 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I know. He wanted a comparison between a mains fridge quoted at 64kWhrs per year and Tony's figures for a 12V fridge of between 30 and 50Ahrs per day. I converted the 12V fridge consumption values to kwHrs per year, which is how mains fridges are usually described.

OK makes more sense now you have edited your post.

I had not put 2&2 together and realised he was looking for comparisons - I just answered his question.

 

Well done for interpretation.

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