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60ft widebeam on the L&L?


leeco

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Our narrowboat is 58’ and we have travelled the L&L several times and shared locks with boats up to 61’ with no trouble.  I think a 60’ wide beam should be fine though may be a bit tight in some locks.  I’m also a Volockie on the Bank Newton/Gargrave locks on the L&L and have noticed that a lot of wide beam owners moor at Reedley Marina (Burnley) where they tend to stay over the winter and then venture out in the warmer months either east or west. In that size boat you can go well past Leeds onto the Aire and Calder and beyond - Trent, Ouse etc. There’s plenty of options.

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1 hour ago, David Lorimer said:

I like your description and I should have said "...cruise as much as possible in a widebeam datebox" ?  If by "proper boat" you mean a narrowboat, well, we have a 57' one but for year-round living we could do with a bit more elbow room and storage space.  

I should have added that proper boats for these waterways are big boats narrowboats arnt

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Our shortboat Severn is 61'10" long x 14'3". We travel from Wigan to Leeds with no trouble at all.

To my mind one important consideration is the shape of the stern. A shortboat is rounded at both ends which fits into the cill either way.

This means that not only can you use all the length but also you can turn as you exit the lock.

Modern shapes of wide boat can have flat transoms with square corners which limit how manoeverable they are as they exit  locks.

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I apologise to leeco for the thread creep, while thanking him profusely for starting it in the first place.  There couldn't have been any better source of answers to all the questions I've been meaning to start a thread with.  TimYoung's post has settled it: 60'x12' is ok for L&L across the Pennines.  Which means we don't have to decide between 57' and single cabin, or 60' with a cabin for guests/grandchildren.  Well noted re rounded v square stern, Tim.  

With the thread well and truly sidetracked, a question for those with WB experience.  Adverts for used 60'x12' and thereabouts show horsepower ranging from 50 up to 75.  I'd expect to feel a bit naked with 50hp on tidal river stretches and estuaries but, given limited propeller diameter, there must be a point at which all possible prop pitch and horsepower combinations just produce more cavitation.  Is there an optimum balance?  

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My 61'x 11'6" barge had 120hp ford D series 24x19 prop plenty of power

My 60' narrowboat has a Beta 2203 19x16prop again plenty of power

Both props 80% aspect ratio

Wouldn't go for less if you are considering a modern engine on a river.

Widebeams are the spawn of the devil, fugly boats that are neither fish nor fowl. A proper English barge or L&L shortboat however is a thing of beauty.

Edited by Loddon
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12 minutes ago, David Lorimer said:

I apologise to leeco for the thread creep, while thanking him profusely for starting it in the first place.  There couldn't have been any better source of answers to all the questions I've been meaning to start a thread with.  TimYoung's post has settled it: 60'x12' is ok for L&L across the Pennines.  Which means we don't have to decide between 57' and single cabin, or 60' with a cabin for guests/grandchildren.  Well noted re rounded v square stern, Tim.  

With the thread well and truly sidetracked, a question for those with WB experience.  Adverts for used 60'x12' and thereabouts show horsepower ranging from 50 up to 75.  I'd expect to feel a bit naked with 50hp on tidal river stretches and estuaries but, given limited propeller diameter, there must be a point at which all possible prop pitch and horsepower combinations just produce more cavitation.  Is there an optimum balance?  

 

I have no first hand knowledge of the Wigan to Leeds section as our boat is too long, but we have been through a lot of tight locks. Seriously leaky gates when going downhill is the big issue and this can sometimes make passage almost impossible. Its the reversing right to the back of the lock to get the gates open that gets tricky. Staircase locks can be particularly difficult unless you have a switched on lock-keeper and that is not guaranteed. If you settle on a 60foot boat then choose one that is able to handle a fair bit of water at the back without it getting inside, and go and look at a few locks to get a feel for whether you will be comfortable doing them.

 

When it does go wrong its possible to get a lot of water into the boat very quickly.

This is where a long cruiser stern type back end and wheel steering might just be better than a trad! (as long as the deck boards are well thought out)

 

.............Dave

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27 minutes ago, David Lorimer said:

I apologise to leeco for the thread creep, while thanking him profusely for starting it in the first place.  There couldn't have been any better source of answers to all the questions I've been meaning to start a thread with.  TimYoung's post has settled it: 60'x12' is ok for L&L across the Pennines.  Which means we don't have to decide between 57' and single cabin, or 60' with a cabin for guests/grandchildren.  Well noted re rounded v square stern, Tim.  

With the thread well and truly sidetracked, a question for those with WB experience.  Adverts for used 60'x12' and thereabouts show horsepower ranging from 50 up to 75.  I'd expect to feel a bit naked with 50hp on tidal river stretches and estuaries but, given limited propeller diameter, there must be a point at which all possible prop pitch and horsepower combinations just produce more cavitation.  Is there an optimum balance?  

 

15 minutes ago, Loddon said:

My 61'x 11'6" barge had 120hp ford D series 24x19 prop plenty of power

My 60' narrowboat has a Beta 2203 19x16prop again plenty of power

Both props 80% aspect ratio

Wouldn't go for less if you are considering a modern engine on a river.

Widebeams are the spawn of the devil, fugly boats that are neither fish nor fowl. A proper English barge or L&L shortboat however is a thing of beauty.

50 hp with the right prop will do the job, but at times it might be hard work so something bigger might be better especially on the Trent and Ouse

As for wide beams being ugly Julian why dont you stick to the thread? I can look out off the window and see ugly narrowboats after all they arnt working boats are they? they are just sewer tubes with windows or portholes, and dont get me started on living in a corridor, and five people standing on one side will roll it over.........................The point of the rant is you arnt helping, the couple want a widebeam, and they want it as big as possible so they have room to move and pass each other without breathing in ?

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7 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Wide beam narrowboats are shyte if you want a boat with width get something decent like a copy if a L&L shortboat or a decent copy of an English barge. Not something that handles like a pig and isn't  suitable to move down any canal.

IMO anyone selling a house to move onto a big boat in their late 50's early 60's needs their head examining as its a daft thing to do. I started moving back onto land at 60 as I realised that one day I would not be able handle 61'x11'6" 35ton barge on my own, 60ft narrowboat yes but not Parglena. Seven years later I'm still on and off the narrow boat and I can still deal with it, but then I have for the last 25 years had a home mooring so don't have to move every 14 days I also have a lifetime of boating experience behind me.

Starting as a CC liveaboard late in life is stupid!

Yes I'm being harsh but I'm telling the truth.

 

This is a bit harsh but its something potential new liveaboards should consider carefully.  I reckon I was just very lucky to get "retired" (or a compulsary transition to self employment) at 50. There are a few liveaboards still doing well in their 80's and quite a few single handed women who are getting on a bit. It can be done but everbody should have a "plan B" ready for when the fitness gives out. A 57 foot narrowboat on the narrow canals is probably fine, a huge boat and broad locks is much harder.

 

A lot of people dream of retiring onto a boat and these days retirement can mean 67 years of age!

 

...............Dave

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11 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Wide beam narrowboats are shyte if you want a boat with width get something decent like a copy if a L&L shortboat or a decent copy of an English barge. Not something that handles like a pig and isn't  suitable to move down any canal.

IMO anyone selling a house to move onto a big boat in their late 50's early 60's needs their head examining as its a daft thing to do. I started moving back onto land at 60 as I realised that one day I would not be able handle 61'x11'6" 35ton barge on my own, 60ft narrowboat yes but not Parglena. Seven years later I'm still on and off the narrow boat and I can still deal with it, but then I have for the last 25 years had a home mooring so don't have to move every 14 days I also have a lifetime of boating experience behind me.

Starting as a CC liveaboard late in life is stupid!

Yes I'm being harsh but I'm telling the truth.

 

Sorry Julian Narrowboats handle rubbish widebeams dont rock and roll in extreme maneuvers. If the OPs parents want to boating with space why shouldnt they? Northern waterways are big and designed for boats that big and on the whole underused 

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5 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Sorry Julian Narrowboats handle rubbish widebeams dont rock and roll in extreme maneuvers. If the OPs parents want to boating with space why shouldnt they? Northern waterways are big and designed for boats that big and on the whole underused 

Most new widebeams handle like pigs as they have short swims and are built to maximise the internal room and not to navigate easily.

My present NB handles better than any canalboat I have ever steered and that's in over 50 years on the water ! So some builders can get it right. The chances of getting a decent handling boat nowadays is close to zero as unless you want to spend a large amount of cash on long double curved swims etc you aint going to get a good handling boat.

I believe people should be aware of the pitfalls.

 

It's only 4 weeks to go until I leave the stinking ditches for the rivers of the east  and one more week after that I become a holiday boater.

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Thanks dmr, rest assured I'll be on those locks and watching in a month or so.  My normal precaution would be to close the stern door, tape over the vents with duct tape, idem engine access covers.  Without a tightly closed cratch cover going uphill - nervous?

Loddon and peterboat, thanks for your ideas on power/prop ratios.  Loddon take note that the thread has skittered away from the Original Poster's question to one altogether different.  Not my intention, but welcome.  CanalWorld being what it is, quite a lot of members might have a lifetime of boating experience behind them.  

dmr, good point about fitness.  I'm still spry enough at 74 to solo our narrowboat, and I remember meeting an irascible lady of 80+(?) who told my wife when she tried to help at a lock, to get lost but in coarser terms.  

 

 

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On 25/02/2019 at 23:14, leeco said:

I know it’s not as I’ve fitted a couple out but for this boat he’d probably spend £15k+ into a fit out 

Best not to confuse actually having the skills to fit out a boat with the skill to design it.

 

Any sort of canal boat, but especially those that can travel a reasonable range, is a tense process of juggling and compromise (any design task is like that but the techniques to squeeze the last drop out of the scarce boat space are quite distinctive - and the outside is just as important as the inside). It is here that experience as well as skill can make all the difference. That experience needs to bring together the experience of using the boat (both living on it as well as navigating with it) with detailed knowledge across a range of technologies. Almost any boat builder will make 'mistakes' - that is, creating something that does not work as intended.

 

Just to give a trivial example. The tall cupboard alongside the rear steps from our semi trad stern contain much of the electrics/electronics at the top. These are readily accessible, although some of the displays are hard to read when the sun shines in at the wrong angle and some have a very narrow angle of visibility such that they can only be seen by wedging oneself part way up the steps! Our intention with the rest of the space was to use it for long handled items like Dyson, brush, pole etc. A clip was added so that the tiller arm can be kept there when not on the move along with a place to keep the tiller pin. All fine and dandy until we dropped the tiller pin to the bottom of the cupboard and found that with fixed steps such that there is no opening door to the lower part of the cupboard, our longest arm could not reach to the bottom to retrieve the fallen pin! (We now have a technique to deal with it but best not to try it when in a hurry!)

 

As I said, a small matter in the great scheme of things but there are literally hundreds of such design decisions to be made during the fitting out. The great majority of these aspects only become obvious once you try to use them - OK a good designer can mentally and imaginatively work through the main parts but it is always surprising just what comes out to bite you.

 

Another important area is the engine bay - there is a lot to get in. It may look neat and tidy and, from above, everything is accessible, but just try and do some simple maintenance tasks and work out where each of your limbs (and oversized body) is going to go! I've been amazed to watch some experienced engineers do contortions that I though not possible, but do you want to be doing that, especially as flexibility begins to decline? Try removing all of the water and/or soil and gunge from the bottom, even without doing something complex! 

 

It is all a process of compromise and so many design decisions involve balancing one need against another and the relative importance will differ from one crew to another.

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12 hours ago, David Lorimer said:

rest assured I'll be on those locks and watching in a month or so.  My normal precaution would be to close the stern door, tape over the vents with duct tape, idem engine access covers.  Without a tightly closed cratch cover going uphill - nervous

Speaking as someone who regularly works a variety of boats across the L&L I think you are over thinking this.

 

If your stern doors are so poorly sealed you need tape, fix the seals.  If your engine board drains are blocked, clear them.  

 

If your welldeck scuppers (drain holes) are too small, make them bigger.  

 

@dmr suggested that a cruiser stern might be better than a trad for working locks he freely admits he hasn't done as his boat is too long.  I disagree having done them dozens if not hundreds of times.  Standing on the step with the doors shut behind you is by far the best way to cope with some of the leaky gates!

 

You can do it with a cruiser stern and good waterproofs, but I prefer it my way.

 

The crucial point is that if you are in danger of swamping the boat while working a lock, you are working the lock wrong. 

 

Henhurst lock at Wigan currently has both ground paddles out of action and no baffles on the gate paddles, so working it requires a delicate touch on the windlass.  It can still be worked safely but needs a bit of care to do so.

 

 

Edited by TheBiscuits
Garr autocorrect
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10 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Speaking as someone who regularly works a variety of boats across the L&L I think you are over thinking this.

 

If your stern doors are so poorly sealed you need tape, fix the seals.  If your engine board drains are blocked, clear them.  

 

If your welldeck scuppers (drain holes) are too small, make them bigger.  

 

@dmr suggested that a cruiser stern might be better than a trad for working locks he freely admits he hasn't done as his boat is too long.  I disagree having done them dozens if not hundreds of times.  Standing on the step with the doors shut behind you is by far the best way to cope with some of the leaky gates!

 

You can do it with a cruiser stern and good waterproofs, but I prefer it my way.

 

The crucial point is that if you are in danger of swamping the boat while working a lock, you are working the lock wrong. 

 

Henhurst lock at Wigan currently has both ground paddles out of action and no baffles on the gate paddles, so working it requires a delicate touch on the windlass.  It can still be worked safely but needs a bit of care to do so.

 

 

I did do a smiley on that comment as I am a compulsive trad sterner. On wet locks we do indeed close the back doors and stand inside, and have a custom made lump of aluminium that sits at the very bottom of the doors, plus a collection of "boat towels". We have a weed hatch "hatch" on the counter and I keep this taped up as otherwise the the water gets in faster than the drain channel can shift it. The only real issue are staircase locks when the water comes in much higher, but we keep a brolly at the back for this. Northgate was a pig last time we went down it but I think it has been fixed.

 

I have seen some very long cruiser sterns and the idea of been able to run away from the waterfall is however quite a nice mental image!

 

For gate paddles Evesham lock going up is the worse lock I have encountered, with the paddles aimed directly at the front deck, and this needs courage rather than a gentle touch, wind them up quickly to stop the water shooting upwards. A couple of real "sinkers" on the K&A too.

 

The water pouring over the tops of the Rochdale locks has so far been much less troublesome than it looks.

 

................Dave

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The boat design that finally became the steel shortboat can cope with any amount of water on either deck.

Water spilling on to the foredeck hits the front of the the cabin, spills around and falls off.

Going downhill the water hits the back deck, tops up the ballast tank ,hits the back of the engine room and the wash board in the slide and again spills away.

The shortboat has evolved to be be impervious to the waterfalls it might meet. A submarine perhaps.

New boats should maybe aim to have some of the same qualities.

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29 minutes ago, dmr said:

I did do a smiley on that comment as I am a compulsive trad sterner. On wet locks we do indeed close the back doors and stand inside, and have a custom made lump of aluminium that sits at the very bottom of the doors, plus a collection of "boat towels". We have a weed hatch "hatch" on the counter and I keep this taped up as otherwise the the water gets in faster than the drain channel can shift it. The only real issue are staircase locks when the water comes in much higher, but we keep a brolly at the back for this. Northgate was a pig last time we went down it but I think it has been fixed.

 

I have seen some very long cruiser sterns and the idea of been able to run away from the waterfall is however quite a nice mental image!

 

For gate paddles Evesham lock going up is the worse lock I have encountered, with the paddles aimed directly at the front deck, and this needs courage rather than a gentle touch, wind them up quickly to stop the water shooting upwards. A couple of real "sinkers" on the K&A too.

 

The water pouring over the tops of the Rochdale locks has so far been much less troublesome than it looks.

 

................Dave

A couple of years ago (it's on here somewhere) we came down Foxton when water levels were high, water was coming over the gates.

 

In the final lock there was a leak from between the top gates which was squirting the counter and cabin top (a 70' trad). I had to stand outside the closed back doors, close the hatch till I could only just get my hand to the throttle, and use my back to keep water out of the back cabin. Even then we had to remove and dry the back cabin carpet.

 

No harm done but it was a bit scary at the time.

Edited by frahkn
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54 minutes ago, TimYoung said:

The boat design that finally became the steel shortboat can cope with any amount of water on either deck.

I agree they can and will shrug off most water, but Alan H has some hairy stories about crossing the Mersey on fully laden shortboats with the waves breaking over the top of the sheets and having to hold his breath for the bigger ones.

 

He doesn't recommend it...

1 hour ago, dmr said:

For gate paddles Evesham lock going up is the worse lock I have encountered, with the paddles aimed directly at the front deck, and this needs courage rather than a gentle touch, wind them up quickly to stop the water shooting upwards.

Good point.  There are a couple of those squirters on the L&L too, and just grit your teeth and wind some more is all you can do with them.  Watching fountains filling welldecks is alarming!

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1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

@dmr suggested that a cruiser stern might be better than a trad for working locks he freely admits he hasn't done as his boat is too long.  I disagree having done them dozens if not hundreds of times.  Standing on the step with the doors shut behind you is by far the best way to cope with some of the leaky gates!

 

70' narowboat, cruiser stern, descending Foxton is similar. I had to move quickly to shut the doors before the tidal wave across the deck ran down the steps. I stepped inside at the same time. This was from water overtopping the gates

 

Cruiser sterns bring their own advantages and disadvantages

 

I turned this deck tidal wave to my advantage. I scrubbed the deck after the first deluge, and used a later deluge to wash it down

 

Richard

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TheBiscuits, indeed, I may be overthinking the drainage issue!  I'll watch what happens with other boats when we're up that way later this year.  The engine cover drains and the after door seals are fine, thanks.  Up forward I keep stuff like tools and spares in plastic boxes in the lockers either side of the well deck so the less water running through there, the better; I won't be increasing the size of the drain holes ?

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On 26/02/2019 at 17:01, PaulD said:

If your parents have just sold their house it is difficult to see how they would qualify for universal credit or would need to go to food banks. Something fishy here.

They wouldn’t be claiming UC after they get paid from this house. At the moment they’ve just finished fostering children and refugees and was on really good money but are debt free but don’t have a income now with very little savings as they just finished completing this last house.

 

George Street, Bridlington
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-59508279.html

 

 

its a shame how our government treat people that have paid into the system all their lives.

Edited by leeco
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1 hour ago, leeco said:

They wouldn’t be claiming UC after they get paid from this house. At the moment they’ve just finished fostering children and refugees and was on really good money but are debt free but don’t have a income now with very little savings as they just finished completing this last house.

 

George Street, Bridlington
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-59508279.html

 

 

its a shame how our government treat people that have paid into the system all their lives.

Well admittedly £200k is not a lot to cover your retirement but then again, it's more than some have to manage on.

 

Presumably they will have the state pension, which they paid for during their working lives and the "system" will have provided the usual stuff (police, medical services, etc etc) whether they wanted them or not.

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