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Constant cruising


Jon Cartwright

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19 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

A lot, I suspect, depends on where you are. A pattern like that on the Macc would take you from Stoke to Congleton, to Macclesfied, Bollington and up to Marple. You've not covered a huge mileage but it's certainly a cruise between several distinct places and you're not going to be annoying anyone by appearing to hog the best spots. 

The same sort of thing around London or Brum wouldn't even get you out of the city limits. Personally, I couldn't be bothered, but then I escaped from the South as soon as I could and loathe big towns. I never understood why anyone insists they can only live and work in London. Unadventurous, I call it. And they don't seem to be happy, them that hop round London (& elsewhere) avoiding CRT, judging by the amount of complaining about harassment that goes on and the whinging about the recording system "not being fit for the purpose". 

Sadly the country (and jobs etc) are heavily biased towards London and the South East  so for many many jobs it is very hard to be elsewhere. And some people actually really do love the place!

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4 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

What about scruffy boats with poverty stricken retirees? 

I have said before and repeat, in thirty years of boating I've never heard anyone complain about continuous cruisers. 

I have heard many times the "that boat looks like it's been moored there forever" because there are some possesions on the towpath. 

I do think the 'types' of boat are changing though. Many more new shiny boats with young(er) people, and a lot of older divorcees forced into a boat as split of house prevents purchase of another house in the South East where they want to stay due to friends/family/connections etc...

Whether people like it or not the way boats are used is changing. But I think the system can more than cope. Perhaps the Bath area is the only real example of a tiny geographical location with genuine strain as it's popular with every type of boater. London isn't under the same strain/conflict as most holiday boaters avoid the place for one reason or another.

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7 hours ago, Dave123 said:

I have heard many times the "that boat looks like it's been moored there forever" because there are some possesions on the towpath. 

I do think the 'types' of boat are changing though. Many more new shiny boats with young(er) people, and a lot of older divorcees forced into a boat as split of house prevents purchase of another house in the South East where they want to stay due to friends/family/connections etc...

Whether people like it or not the way boats are used is changing. But I think the system can more than cope. Perhaps the Bath area is the only real example of a tiny geographical location with genuine strain as it's popular with every type of boater. London isn't under the same strain/conflict as most holiday boaters avoid the place for one reason or another.

A common reason being the belief that mooring will be difficult or impossible to find because the place is full of cc boats.

 

Black price holiday boats have quit London in 2016 for a number of reasons including congested waterways.........

https://www.black-prince.com/london-holidays-withdrawn/

Edited by Chewbacka
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16 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

A common reason being the belief that mooring will be difficult or impossible to find because the place is full of cc boats.

 

Black price holiday boats have quit London in 2016 for a number of reasons including congested waterways.........

https://www.black-prince.com/london-holidays-withdrawn/

I think it has more to do with the fact a cruise through London just isn't as scenic as the Llangollen or the South Oxford. And for those doing long trips on private boats London is just a long haul from the main system through a lot of locks and gritty suburbia like Hayes and Harlington. 

My point being, I don't see why there is so much griping about London being full of liveaboards when I doubt many other types of boats want to go there anyway.

Edited by Dave123
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14 minutes ago, Dave123 said:

I think it has more to do with the fact a cruise through London just isn't as scenic as the Llangollen or the South Oxford. And for those doing long trips on private boats London is just a long haul from the main system through a lot of locks and gritty suburbia like Hayes and Harlington. 

My point being, I don't see why there is so much griping about London being full of liveaboards when I doubt many other types of boats want to go there anyway.

Not the same as the Llangollen but just as interesting in my opinion and I for one would do it more often if it wasnt for the stress of am I going to be able to moor before dark 

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1 hour ago, Dave123 said:

I think it has more to do with the fact a cruise through London just isn't as scenic as the Llangollen or the South Oxford. And for those doing long trips on private boats London is just a long haul from the main system through a lot of locks and gritty suburbia like Hayes and Harlington. 

My point being, I don't see why there is so much griping about London being full of liveaboards when I doubt many other types of boats want to go there anyway.

Explain why so many trip boats go through Birmingham and the Black Country then?

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6 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Dave123 said:

I think it has more to do with the fact a cruise through London just isn't as scenic as the Llangollen or the South Oxford. And for those doing long trips on private boats London is just a long haul from the main system through a lot of locks and gritty suburbia like Hayes and Harlington. 

My point being, I don't see why there is so much griping about London being full of liveaboards when I doubt many other types of boats want to go there anyway.

I'd love to go there.  I'm put off by having such trouble trying to moor.  Lots of other boaters I know are too.

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1 hour ago, Dave123 said:

My point being, I don't see why there is so much griping about London being full of liveaboards when I doubt many other types of boats want to go there anyway.

 

I'd love to go there but feel I can't because it if full, as you point out. 

 

It isn't the type of boat ramming it full that bothers me, it is the ramming full in the first place, with <whatever> boats.

 

I think there will eventually have to be a limit on the number of boats in London canals. The details will be difficult to work out though.

 

 

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On ‎25‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 16:54, Jerra said:

I am sure somebody will correct me but wasn't the requirement to have a home mooring dropped because of lobbying by people who were genuinely cruising all over the system and a mooring was of no use to them.

Indeed.

 

Basically, we have an Act that is designed to make lawyers rich by its vagueness.

 

Each person will take a line on it that suits what THEY want it to say.

 

So, the person who wants to remain in a 10 mile stretch for ever will adopt a very literal interpretation of the bits that can be measured directly "without remaining in one place", and ignore the bits that are a question of degree "bona fide for navigation".

 

The person who finds it difficult to get a good mooring whilst on holiday because the same boats shuttle back and forth between the desired spots will concentrate on "satisfies the board" as a view that the law appoints an arbiter of questions of degree.

 

Clearly, neither is wholly right. One cannot say "I have only been moored here for 13 days, I am allowed", and disregard the other words. The other words must bring some function. Equally, "the board" cannot be unreasonable in what it requires to be "satisfied"

 

The reason that this is in the law is very instructive in my view.

 

People lobbied because the way they used the canals made it unreasonable for them to have a home mooring. They were moving all the time to different places. That was accepted.

 

However their argument wasn't that there are loads of free moorings on the bank in the local area, so they would just use those. neither was their argument that they didn't want to pay.

 

I take a view (and it is of course a view that counts for nothing in law) that if your cruising pattern is such that you are permanently within a days travel of a central point, then the argument about it being unreasonable to have a mooring don't apply to you.

 

In the end, CRT do have the option of bringing in an increased charge for CCers.

 

That would be a blunt instrument. The CMers would get a mooring, because trundling back and forth isn't worth it if you have to pay. The genuine CCers would be hit in the pocket, having done nothing to deserve such action.

 

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'd love to go there but feel I can't because it if full, as you point out. 

 

It isn't the type of boat ramming it full that bothers me, it is the ramming full in the first place, with <whatever> boats.

 

I think there will eventually have to be a limit on the number of boats in London canals. The details will be difficult to work out though.

 

 

 

This exactly ^^^^, I last went there in the late 90's before it began to seriously fill up and thoroughly enjoyed it, particularly mooring in Little Venice for a couple of days, but now I would be concerned about easily securing somewhere reasonable to moor each night.

 

I do wonder which type of boater has the biggest problem with the other, shiny or scruffy or vice versa?

 

Personally as long as people are pleasant and considerate I couldn't give a flying f*** what type of boat someone else has.

Edited by cuthound
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9 minutes ago, mayalld said:

In the end, CRT do have the option of bringing in an increased charge for CCers.

 

That would be a blunt instrument. The CMers would get a mooring, because trundling back and forth isn't worth it if you have to pay. The genuine CCers would be hit in the pocket, having done nothing to deserve such action.

It has been discussed previously, but charging (say) £5,000 for a licence and 'crediting back' (say) £2.00 per mile logged during the year if you are 'on a CC licence' or deducting the price paid for a mooring up to £XXXX pounds (to allow for differences between (say) London & Preston would be one way.

 

It would need some thinking about to ensure it penalises those that 'deserve' penalising and doesn't adversely affect those with a mooring, or those 'proper CCing'.

 

It would also need some definition of 'deserve penalising' & ' proper CCing'

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39 minutes ago, mayalld said:

 

That would be a blunt instrument. The CMers would get a mooring, because trundling back and forth isn't worth it if you have to pay. The genuine CCers would be hit in the pocket, having done nothing to deserve such action.

 

Many, many CMers would love to get a mooring but can't because there aren't any at any kind of reasonable price.  So if CRT started charging them more, they'd all have to pay up.  Or are you suggesting a continuous cruising licence should cost over £10,000pa?

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19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It has been discussed previously, but charging (say) £5,000 for a licence and 'crediting back' (say) £2.00 per mile logged during the year if you are 'on a CC licence' or deducting the price paid for a mooring up to £XXXX pounds (to allow for differences between (say) London & Preston would be one way.

 

It would need some thinking about to ensure it penalises those that 'deserve' penalising and doesn't adversely affect those with a mooring, or those 'proper CCing'.

 

It would also need some definition of 'deserve penalising' & ' proper CCing'

It is, as you say, very possible.

 

Basically, such a scheme might work (at a technical, legal, level) as follows;

 

The starting point is to consider what "a mooring or other place where the vessel can reasonably be kept and may lawfully be left" actually means in practice. Clearly, this phrase includes a mooring that one pays CRT or a private provider for, and equally clearly (keeping in mind the powers of a legal person) CRT's right to charge for such a mooring derives from s43 of the Transport Act 1962.

 

We know that some marina groups offer reciprocal moorings in their other marinas, and it seems obvious that this too meets the criteria.

 

By extension, a body that has a lot of mooring spots (such as CRT) could (for a price) grant permissions to occupy them. Indeed they already do grant just that permission for no fee for casual mooring.

 

So, what you do is offer two kinds of licence;

 

Standard Licence under s17(3)(c)(i) - the clause under which licences are issued to moorers at present. Such licences cost much the same as now, and come with a requirement for some kind of mooring. That could be a traditional mooring, or it could be a roving permit, which sets prices based upon how long you want to moor on particular bits of the system. 28 days on the Macc over the year, free, 56 days, £1000 and so on

 

Parliamentary Licence under s17(3)(c)(ii) - the clause under which CCers are licenced at present. Such licences would cost "a lot of money".

 

So, the right to a CCer licence, and to argue the toss about interpretation would exist, but if you are charging somebody £5k to indulge his barrack room lawyering, then CRT won't care.

 

Real (and not-so-real) CCers would have a range of cruising options available to them, at a price that reflects whether they are really CCing or just bridge hopping, and the shorter the cruising range, the more a licence costs.

13 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Many, many CMers would love to get a mooring but can't because there aren't any at any kind of reasonable price.  So if CRT started charging them more, they'd all have to pay up.  Or are you suggesting a continuous cruising licence should cost over £10,000pa?

Moorings are available at a reasonable price.

 

They may not be EXACTLY where the boater wants them to be.

 

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23 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Many, many CMers would love to get a mooring but can't because there aren't any at any kind of reasonable price.  So if CRT started charging them more, they'd all have to pay up.  Or are you suggesting a continuous cruising licence should cost over £10,000pa?

 

Ah that old chestnut. The people who cant afford the cost of boating should be excused having to pay, eh? This is currently why we have unlimited demand to live on a boat. It will have to stop, eventually...  

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43 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Many, many CMers would love to get a mooring but can't because there aren't any at any kind of reasonable price.  So if CRT started charging them more, they'd all have to pay up.  Or are you suggesting a continuous cruising licence should cost over £10,000pa?

Are you suggesting that if you want to do 'something' but cannot afford to comply with the law you should be allowed to do it anyway ?

 

I am retired on a small pension and struggle to afford to 'tax' my car can I therefore please just use it without paying ?

 

Everyone has a choice - do what you want to do and pay the price, or, don't do it.

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

but charging (say) £5,000 for a licence and 'crediting back' (say) £2.00 per mile logged during the year if you are 'on a CC licence'

That would require CCers to be moving their boats for 15-20 hours  week :huh: Every week of the year

Edited by Tumshie
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2 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

That would require CCers to be moving their boats for 15-20 hours  week :huh:

Why would it ?

They could not move at all and pay £5000

They could move 10 miles a week and pay £4000

Or move 20 miles per week and pay £3000

Or they could move ………………………………., or ……………………….

 

(Don't forget the £5000 also includes the existing licence fee (round figures £1000))

 

I did say the figures were just examples - the 'base figure' could be (say) £2000 and you get £1 credit for every mile, (travel 1000 miles per annum to 'break even) or £2 credit & travel 500 miles per annum to break even.

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3 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

I'd love to go there.  I'm put off by having such trouble trying to moor.  Lots of other boaters I know are too.

Should have added...obviously lots of forum users will want to go to London as we are canal enthusiasts by definition. But I seriously doubt London would ever see the boat numbers the Llangollen or South Oxford get. And if it wasn't for the rise in liveaboards much of the canal away from little Venice (all of Hackney/Kensel/Mile end) would still be a desolate no go zone as opposed to the vibrant colourful community it is now. And it isn't that hard to find a mooring anyway, so long as you are happy breasting up and don't expect to cruise until dusk and stop immediately wherever you have got to. 

Birmingham is an interesting example that someone mentioned above. I have often wondered why there aren't more liveaboards similar to London. It would improve the canal. We broke down at spon lane locks 3 years ago and the place is about the most depressing and desolate I have encountered. Yet the London equivalent would have had boats and people and a totally different vibe.

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14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Why would it ?

Yes

 

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

They could move 10 miles a week and pay £4000

That would be £20 or you would have to up the amount paid per mile to £100 per mile. 

 

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

(Don't forget the £5000 also includes the existing licence fee (round figures £1000))

I didn't, I included that in the original maths. 

 

At the moment CRT recommend that a CCer should be traveling a minimum range of 20 miles a year, don't they?

Edited by Tumshie
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4 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

At the moment CRT recommend that a CCer should be traveling a minimum range of 20 miles a year, don't they?

No.  They pretty much guarantee that if you do less than this they will come after you, and the further above that travel the less aggro you will get.

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3 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

That would be £20 or you would have to up the amount paid per mile to £100 per mile. 

£1000 divided by 50 weeks divided by £2 = 10 miles per week (not 10 miles per year)

 

5 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

At the moment CRT recommend that a CCer should be traveling a minimum range of 20 miles a year, don't they?

Yes - RANGE of 20 miles, that's a minimum of 20 miles radius  away from a 'centre' so travel that each way (from the centre) - say - 10 times per annum and that's 400 miles

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1 minute ago, Tumshie said:

That makes better sense. 

 

 

Thank you, but it was simply explaining the maths behind what I said in the 1st place - 10 miles (3 hours cruising) per week. = saving £1000 per annum.

 

Its all hypothetical as its unlikely that C&RT would ever consider a dual licence fee.

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Thank you

Your welcome ?

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

but it was simply explaining the maths behind what I said in the 1st place - 10 miles (3 hours cruising) per week. = saving £1000 per annum.

Yes for the 10 miles for £4,000 it makes better sense once I read it that way. 

 

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Its all hypothetical as its unlikely that C&RT would ever consider a dual licence fee.

It wouldn't be worth the time, expense to hassle that the nbta would cause them tying them up in legal wrangling. 

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