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Constant cruising


Jon Cartwright

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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

So if you are paying £3000 per annum in a marina you suggest that 9% of that is £100 ?

 

It wasn't when I went to school.

No, but I am suggesting that none of the people living on boats and trying to move as little as possible would ever even consider a £3,000 marina berth.  I'm looking at £1,000 to £1,200 fees for (usually) shorter boats in cheaper marinas.  There are a lot of 30-50 foot boats out there.

 

I also know that you knew that, so do you have a preferred min/max range for "continuous cruisers" Alan?

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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

So if you are paying £3000 per annum in a marina you suggest that 9% of that is £100 ?

 

It wasn't when I went to school.

 

 

£270 per boat in a 100 boat Marina gives C&RT a 'contribution' of £27,000 pa (in addition to their licence fees)

I dont pay that much in the marina I am in and most CC pay a licence anyway.

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2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

I'm looking at £1,000 to £1,200 fees for (usually) shorter boats in cheaper marinas.

My boat is 36 feet and the (leisure) Marina Berth is £1763 per annum.

 

Not being a CCer I have no particular 'take' on required mileage.

I would tend to look at the 'intention' of the legislation and would work to that.

I (personally) would not consider a range of 20 miles per annum to be compliant, but, I am not the arbiter, C&RT is.

 

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9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I would tend to look at the 'intention' of the legislation and would work to that.

 

I am sure somebody will correct me but wasn't the requirement to have a home mooring dropped because of lobbying by people who were genuinely cruising all over the system and a mooring was of no use to them.

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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

My boat is 36 feet and the (leisure) Marina Berth is £1763 per annum.

 

Not being a CCer I have no particular 'take' on required mileage.

I would tend to look at the 'intention' of the legislation and would work to that.

I (personally) would not consider a range of 20 miles per annum to be compliant, but, I am not the arbiter, C&RT is.

 

Is that with a widebeam surcharge?

 

As I understand it, the 'intention' of the legislation was for people like me who want to pootle round on the waterways, and would never use a home mooring. 

 

The fact that other people with the same attitude campaigned vigorously against BW who wanted all boats to have a mooring is why the law is written the way it is, and I am very grateful to them for doing so.  I think some of those people are members on this forum, and if I ever meet them I'll buy them a drink or two.

 

I usually think 20 miles is a good day's cruise, not an annual range.  Other days, I think just going the other side of the measured split and staying there a fortnight is fine.  It all depends what we are up to and where we are.  As you say, CRT have stated publicly what is the bare minimum they will stand for, in an effort to get boats moving at all!

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Just now, Jerra said:

I am sure somebody will correct me but wasn't the requirement to have a home mooring dropped because of lobbying by people who were genuinely cruising all over the system and a mooring was of no use to them.

Yes, but the devil is in the details.  People who are cruising the system and would have no use for a mooring don't need to cover every mile of the network every year, and not even BW went that far.

 

We can agree that not moving is not acceptable if you don't have a mooring, and I hope you agree that making anyone do all 2,000 miles of CRT waters every year is ridiculous.  So the reasonable limits should be somewhere between those extremes - what would your ideal min/max range look like?

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Just now, TheBiscuits said:

Yes, but the devil is in the details.  People who are cruising the system and would have no use for a mooring don't need to cover every mile of the network every year, and not even BW went that far.

 

We can agree that not moving is not acceptable if you don't have a mooring, and I hope you agree that making anyone do all 2,000 miles of CRT waters every year is ridiculous.  So the reasonable limits should be somewhere between those extremes - what would your ideal min/max range look like?

As you say 20 miles is a days cruise.   So if the intention of the change was to satisfy those cruising continuously I am sure they were thinking of people who travelled more than a single days cruise.

 

Even if you said the range was 40 miles that is only a two day cruise.  So really it IMO comes down to the intention and spirit of the law.  The spirit (again just my opinion) means that your intention is not to try to stay within striking distance of a single place but are genuinely wandering.  This might mean you spend quite some time in one fairly small area but later in the year are say 4 or 5 days cruise away.

 

The intention of the law seems to have been to satisfy those who genuinely had no need for a home mooring as they were genuinely on the move.

 

If pressed for a mileage which given the intention and spirit of the law shouldn't be necessary I would probably have to say 40 - 50 miles range.

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Just now, Jerra said:

As you say 20 miles is a days cruise.   So if the intention of the change was to satisfy those cruising continuously I am sure they were thinking of people who travelled more than a single days cruise.

 

Even if you said the range was 40 miles that is only a two day cruise.  So really it IMO comes down to the intention and spirit of the law.  The spirit (again just my opinion) means that your intention is not to try to stay within striking distance of a single place but are genuinely wandering.  This might mean you spend quite some time in one fairly small area but later in the year are say 4 or 5 days cruise away.

 

The intention of the law seems to have been to satisfy those who genuinely had no need for a home mooring as they were genuinely on the move.

 

If pressed for a mileage which given the intention and spirit of the law shouldn't be necessary I would probably have to say 40 - 50 miles range.

Thanks for that, and especially for showing your reasoning as well as the numbers.

 

@Dr Bob usually likes to cruise for 3 hours a day, so assuming he is doing ~3mph average he will do ~9 miles of flat water.  If he didn't have a mooring, would that not mean he would be doing 2 days cruise in 20 miles, where I might be doing 40 miles in the same period?  Does the length of cruising day alter the preferred range or not?

 

One example I like to use is the Cheshire Ring, because everybody seems to know it.  If I worked in the middle of the ring, would it be acceptable to just keep going round the ring and commute into the centre for work or not?

 

I'm not just arguing for the sake of it, I am genuinely interested in the differing viewpoints on the subject.

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3 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

 

One example I like to use is the Cheshire Ring, because everybody seems to know it.  If I worked in the middle of the ring, would it be acceptable to just keep going round the ring and commute into the centre for work or not?

 

I'm not just arguing for the sake of it, I am genuinely interested in the differing viewpoints on the subject.

I think so. I wonder how many times you would go round in say 5 years

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2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

A lot, I suspect, depends on where you are. A pattern like that on the Macc would take you from Stoke to Congleton, to Macclesfied, Bollington and up to Marple. You've not covered a huge mileage but it's certainly a cruise between several distinct places and you're not going to be annoying anyone by appearing to hog the best spots. 

The same sort of thing around London or Brum wouldn't even get you out of the city limits. Personally, I couldn't be bothered, but then I escaped from the South as soon as I could and loathe big towns. I never understood why anyone insists they can only live and work in London. Unadventurous, I call it. And they don't seem to be happy, them that hop round London (& elsewhere) avoiding CRT, judging by the amount of complaining about harassment that goes on and the whinging about the recording system "not being fit for the purpose". 

I've been on the Macc and Upper Peak for two months, six distinct spots and only eleven miles from where I went in to turning around at Bugsworth. Now close to where I was a month ago. Plenty of CCers around floating around the same spots but there is plenty of room. Some people have asked if i'm a continuous dumper but when I tell them I'm heading down to a mooring on the Shroppie their attitide changes.

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The problem with complying with the 'spirit' of something is that a spirit isn't tangible and if it were, compliance with this spirit, or not, would always be a matter of opinion. That's why CRT must have (at least reasonably) set parameters as to what pattern of movement constitutes 'bone fide navigation' i.e. 'spirit'. If not, individuals within enforcement would be making decisions based on their personal take on things leading to inconsistencies and ultimately, a shambles.

 

Bearing this in mind the only thing to discuss is whether the 20 mile 'guidance' should be a greater or lesser distance. That's it.   

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

So if you are paying £3000 per annum in a marina you suggest that 9% of that is £100 ?

 

It wasn't when I went to school.

 

 

£270 per boat in a 100 boat Marina gives C&RT a 'contribution' of £27,000 pa (in addition to their licence fees)

I'm not in a marina, so CRT get all 500 quid of mine. 

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21 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Thanks for that, and especially for showing your reasoning as well as the numbers.

 

@Dr Bob usually likes to cruise for 3 hours a day, so assuming he is doing ~3mph average he will do ~9 miles of flat water.  If he didn't have a mooring, would that not mean he would be doing 2 days cruise in 20 miles, where I might be doing 40 miles in the same period?  Does the length of cruising day alter the preferred range or not?

 

One example I like to use is the Cheshire Ring, because everybody seems to know it.  If I worked in the middle of the ring, would it be acceptable to just keep going round the ring and commute into the centre for work or not?

 

I'm not just arguing for the sake of it, I am genuinely interested in the differing viewpoints on the subject.

As I have said for me it depends on intention/spirit.

 

For me a lot would depend on how long it took to complete the circuit.  If it took you nearly 4 years i.e. 14 days move a mile and repeat you clearly aren't following either the spirit or intention of the law.

 

A little would also depend on the pattern of moving,if you chose a few spots which were particularly advantageous then again I don't believe you would be following the spirit or intention of the law.   For example if you had say 4 favourite spots and you spent the maximum time at each and then hurried to the next.   If however your stops were varied each circuit depending on season, events near by, family commitments, places of interest that would be a different matter.

 

If on the other hand you were taking a month or two then you would probably be classed as within the intention and the spirit of the law IMO.   Always assuming of course you were actually doing the ring and not just oscillating about on part of it.

 

Just my opinion other opinions are of course available. 

 

Edit to \add that as it is a circle providing you kept in the same direction you would be on a continuous cruise in the literal sense.  :D

Edited by Jerra
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15 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

The problem with complying with the 'spirit' of something is that a spirit isn't tangible and if it were, compliance with this spirit, or not, would always be a matter of opinion. That's why CRT must have (at least reasonably) set parameters as to what pattern of movement constitutes 'bone fide navigation' i.e. 'spirit'. If not, individuals within enforcement would be making decisions based on their personal take on things leading to inconsistencies and ultimately, a shambles.

 

Bearing this in mind the only thing to discuss is whether the 20 mile 'guidance' should be a greater or lesser distance. That's it.   

If told, I could always dash back to my mooring in three days and reset the clock, currently 42 locks away. I could then waste a load of water to get back up here. At present I'm ambling, enjoying weeks in different places heading south. I'm trying to cruise like CC but knowing I have the home base if needed.

 

eta: as Arthur points out moorings don't have to be stupid money. A 58?' one went at Bugsworth for £1605/yr. Not bad imho.

Edited by BilgePump
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3 minutes ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

The problem with complying with the 'spirit' of something is that a spirit isn't tangible and if it were, compliance with this spirit, or not, would always be a matter of opinion. That's why CRT must have (at least reasonably) set parameters as to what pattern of movement constitutes 'bone fide navigation' i.e. 'spirit'. If not, individuals within enforcement would be making decisions based on their personal take on things leading to inconsistencies and ultimately, a shambles.

 

Bearing this in mind the only thing to discuss is whether the 20 mile 'guidance' should be a greater or lesser distance. That's it.   

But it isn't. As I said, it depends where you are. You can assume that, probably, if you travel a fair bit more than the guidance 20 miles crt can't be bothered to argue a case, less than that they probably will. Round about that figure, it depends on where you are as that affects how much a nuisance you are to everyone else and so how much the enforcement team get pissed off with you. It also no doubt depends on whether you spend your time on a honey spot or lurking quietly out of the way under a tree. 

It is, of course, a pointless discussion as always. And I can't say I care too much, as I've always had a pleasant mooring whether I was living on or just using it for holidays. And in a sensible part of the country it doesn't cost too much, either. 

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A rather large widebeam was lifted in at Stowe Hill just over 12 months ago, they finally made it off the GU on to the Thames at Brentford a couple of weeks ago.

This is a distance of 82 miles. They probably moved less than 2 hours every 14 days, 3 or 4 miles at the most each move. 

There will be some who say this is not within the spirit of the rules, some who say it shouldn't be allowed, but IS bona fide navigation, they are doing the K&A next then back and over to Europe..probably by 2023...?

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1 minute ago, matty40s said:

A rather large widebeam was lifted in at Stowe Hill just over 12 months ago, they finally made it off the GU on to the Thames at Brentford a couple of weeks ago.

This is a distance of 82 miles. They probably moved less than 2 hours every 14 days, 3 or 4 miles at the most each move. 

There will be some who say this is not within the spirit of the rules, some who say it shouldn't be allowed, but IS bona fide navigation, they are doing the K&A next then back and over to Europe..probably by 2023...?

I would agree it is bona fide as there is a clear declared intention for the cruise.   I would however also probably see it as a damned nuisance if I happened to have to spend much time in the same area.

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21 minutes ago, matty40s said:

A rather large widebeam was lifted in at Stowe Hill just over 12 months ago, they finally made it off the GU on to the Thames at Brentford a couple of weeks ago.

This is a distance of 82 miles. They probably moved less than 2 hours every 14 days, 3 or 4 miles at the most each move. 

There will be some who say this is not within the spirit of the rules, some who say it shouldn't be allowed, but IS bona fide navigation, they are doing the K&A next then back and over to Europe..probably by 2023...?

It will probably be 2013 before they reach the far end of the K&A the way the water levels and stoppages are on there

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16 hours ago, The Welsh Cruiser said:

The problem with complying with the 'spirit' of something is that a spirit isn't tangible and if it were, compliance with this spirit, or not, would always be a matter of opinion. That's why CRT must have (at least reasonably) set parameters as to what pattern of movement constitutes 'bone fide navigation' i.e. 'spirit'. If not, individuals within enforcement would be making decisions based on their personal take on things leading to inconsistencies and ultimately, a shambles.

 

Bearing this in mind the only thing to discuss is whether the 20 mile 'guidance' should be a greater or lesser distance. That's it.   

Exactly. Shiny boats with wealthy retirees would get one treatment and scruffy boats with young liveaboards another. It's already the case that a lot of opposition to 'continuous cruisers' is just boat snobbery. 

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7 minutes ago, Dave123 said:

Exactly. Shiny boats with wealthy retirees would get one treatment and scruffy boats with young liveaboards another. It's already the case that a lot of opposition to 'continuous cruisers' is just boat snobbery. 

What about scruffy boats with poverty stricken retirees? 

I have said before and repeat, in thirty years of boating I've never heard anyone complain about continuous cruisers. 

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