Alan de Enfield Posted February 24, 2019 Report Share Posted February 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, rgreg said: Fortunately it has a solid fuel stove. I have the same set up and very rarely need to use the Alde for space heating; it's not a big issue for water heating. Good point - I didn't notice that. However an additional concern is that the Broker states the VAT status is unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted February 24, 2019 Report Share Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said: Doesn't it depend on how bad the sinking was? If in a lock then everything is likely to have been affected, but when mine sank it was on its mooring, no water in the cabin, just (cruiser stern) the engine area flooded as it only settled a foot or so. Once the engine was sorted you couldn't tell it had ever happened. Edited February 24, 2019 by Ray T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Davis Posted February 24, 2019 Report Share Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said: Doesn't it depend on how bad the sinking was? If in a lock then everything is likely to have been affected, but when mine sank it was on its mooring, no water in the cabin, just (cruiser stern) the engine area flooded as it only settled a foot or so. Once the engine was sorted you couldn't tell it had ever happened. There was a link earlier to the local paper's report of this sinking in the River Lea, and it shows nearly the whole boat under water. Beaten to it by Ray! Edited February 24, 2019 by Graham Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterboat Posted February 24, 2019 Report Share Posted February 24, 2019 Walk away its expensive even for a boat that hasnt sunk. Cast your net further north and the boats will get cheaper by a long way and newer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted February 24, 2019 Report Share Posted February 24, 2019 I know the original owners of her. they sold her well before she sunk @Loddon knows them as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUMPY Posted February 24, 2019 Report Share Posted February 24, 2019 43 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said: I know the original owners of her. they sold her well before she sunk @Loddon knows them as well Indeed that seems like a lifetime ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dccruiser Posted February 24, 2019 Report Share Posted February 24, 2019 I bought a "refloated" boat a few years ago and the only way to get rid of the smell of diesel was to completely gut it ... I even had to get rid of the ballast as it was so impregnated and even jetwashing didnt help. that was a similar size and age but only cost me 7k to buy, so even after a 10k total refit i was able to sell at 25k to recoup my money and the time it took me. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Navy Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 You cannot be serious??? If you have to ask on a web site if it's a good deal or not, you certaibnly arent a professional salvager that's for sure. The boat has been flooded, I say again....flooded. Not sprayed with moisture or a hatch left open in the rain. EVERYTHING - electrics, engine, upholstery, woodwork...has become sodden. Do you genuinely believe for 1 minute that this won't haunt you for years to come? Unless you can guarantee the ENTIRE boat has been refurbished including the fittings, all the fixtures, electrical goods, the entire electrical looming and all accessories, the engine removed, stripped down and all ancilliaries replaced. Boat rustproofed and repainted. You will forever rue the day you bought it. You know what they say.................a fool and their money are easily parted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 The very first boat we decided to view when I decided to get back into canal boating 15 years ago, seemed broadly OK, if not spectacular, but as I probed around it I became somewhat suspicious of its history. It had once been a hire boat at Clifton Cruisers, and I decided to talk to them about it Although under new ownership since that boat was on the fleet, the owner helpfully gave me contact details for an engineer who knew the boat. It transpired it had been sunk not once but multiple times as a hire boat, and had always been an unreliable boat, which is why it was sold off, whilst others of a similar age had not. Why am I recounting this in so much detail? Well the broker was coincidentally Virginia Currer. John Currer claimed to know nothing about it, but there were enough tell-tale signs to arouse suspicions. At the time that brokerage had a good reputation with many people, but I was in no hurry to rush back there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUMPY Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 I remember Virginia well, a lady not to be trifled with. Never met John despite having many dealings with VC marine I always dealt with Virginia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted February 25, 2019 Report Share Posted February 25, 2019 56 minutes ago, Loddon said: I remember Virginia well, a lady not to be trifled with. Never met John despite having many dealings with VC marine I always dealt with Virginia. Agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted March 6, 2019 Report Share Posted March 6, 2019 On 24/02/2019 at 08:01, Alan de Enfield said: Legally the broker is acting on behalf of the seller and there is no necessity to divulge any faults. He is legally required to truthfully answer any specific question 'to the best of his knowledge' (ie "has been boat ever been sunk/recovered"), but if the owner has not divulged the facts then the broker can simply say "not that I am aware". Ethically, and 'suggested' by the brokerage associations, is the suggestion that brokers should divulge all known facts in their sales documentation. Those who thinks that they get 'security' by buying from a broker are living in cloud-cuckoo land. Typical 'warranty statement' in brokers T&Cs The Seller is not selling the boat in the course of a business, trade or profession. The Buyer is free to inspect, survey and sea trial the boat and all gear and equipment included within the sale and to satisfy himself as to her condition, quality and specification. Therefore all express or implied warranties or conditions, statutory or otherwise, are hereby excluded unless specifically included in this Agreement, and the boat, her gear and equipment shall be taken with all defects and faults of description without any allowance or abatement whatsoever. Broker’s ‘Legal Liability To Disclose Information’ In the RYA’s view, there is no general legal obligation on either Seller or broker to disclose the existence of defects to a prospective Buyer, unless, of course, they are asked a specific question, which is why a survey is essential. Nevertheless the RYA, the BMF and the ABYA believe that it is good practice for a broker to fairly represent a boat being offered for sale and should therefore disclose any defects made know to them by the Seller. A standard disclaimer will be included in the brokers Agreement with the Seller, the purpose of which is to protect a broker against complaints by a Buyer that the broker’s published particulars of a boat are wrong, in circumstances where the broker has relied on the Seller’s information when writing those particulars. Actually under the consumer protection regulations the broker is obliged to disclose any matter that would be material to the decision making process of a buyer even if it is detrimental to the ability to sell or they will be held liable. Silence isn't a defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted March 6, 2019 Report Share Posted March 6, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Pistol said: Actually under the consumer protection regulations the broker is obliged to disclose any matter that would be material to the decision making process of a buyer even if it is detrimental to the ability to sell or they will be held liable. Silence isn't a defence. A broker is not selling the boat he is only 'brokering the deal' between the buyer and the seller. The Broker must (legally) answer any question honestly but he does not have to offer the information. If the seller (not the broker) is selling the boat in the course of business then the buyer is covered by the 'Sale of Goods Act' (or its latest incarnation). If the seller (not the Broker) is a private individual then the Sale of Goods Act does not apply and it is a case of "Caveat Emptor" From "Which" "What Are My Rights ?" https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/your-rights-when-buying-second-hand-goods#did-you-buy-it-from-a-retailer-or-trader Did you buy it from a private seller? When you buy from an individual (as opposed to a retailer), the Consumer Rights Act says that the goods you get must be as they were described to you by the seller. There's no obligation on the seller to disclose any faults, but misrepresenting goods isn't allowed. For example, something second-hand should not be described as new. If it is, the seller will be in breach of contract. But putting things right can be tricky. If you can’t reach an agreement between yourselves you’ll have to try alternative dispute resolution or the small claims court. Repeating the above - A Broker is not the seller (unless they own the boat in which case they become the seller and not a broker, and, Sale Of Goods comes into play) The seller is a private individual. There is one well know 'Midlands' Broker who pretend that boats owned by them are actually 'on brokerage' knowing that they would have problems with 'returns' if they were being sold 'in the course of a business'. Edited March 6, 2019 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistol Posted March 6, 2019 Report Share Posted March 6, 2019 3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: A broker is not selling the boat he is only 'brokering the deal' between the buyer and the seller. The Broker must (legally) answer any question honestly but he does not have to offer the information. If the seller (not the broker) is selling the boat in the course of business then the buyer is covered by the 'Sale of Goods Act' (or its latest incarnation). If the seller (not the Broker) is a private individual then the Sale of Goods Act does not apply and it is a case of "Caveat Emptor" The consumer protection regulations are more recent and cover brokers and for an equivalent field example estate agents. A private sale is caveat emptor, a brokered sale the consumer protection regulations would apply. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/1277/regulation/6/made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted March 6, 2019 Report Share Posted March 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, Pistol said: The consumer protection regulations are more recent and cover brokers and for an equivalent field example estate agents. A private sale is caveat emptor, a brokered sale the consumer protection regulations would apply. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/1277/regulation/6/made I cannot see any reference to a Broker in the page you linked to. (2008 Act) The "Consumer Rights Act 2015" - Explanation by 'Money Saving Expert' The rules change with private sellers If you're buying second-hand goods from a private seller (someone who doesn't sell goods for all or part of their living), your rights are nowhere near as strong as when buying from a shop. The only protection is that it's correctly described and the owner has the right to sell it. Here, it really is a case of caveat emptor or "let the buyer beware". So if the seller says nowt or little about the goods and you buy it, then that's it. Even if it's shoddy, you weren't mis-sold, so have no comeback. Though if they lie to you – you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Bob Posted March 6, 2019 Report Share Posted March 6, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Pistol said: The consumer protection regulations are more recent and cover brokers and for an equivalent field example estate agents. A private sale is caveat emptor, a brokered sale the consumer protection regulations would apply. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/1277/regulation/6/made I can't see in your link where a broker comes into this. Can you be more specific where brokers and estate agents are covered by this? eta.... post crossed with Alan's. He obviously couldn't see the link to brokers either. When I bought my boat, it was an agreement signed with an individual. The broker just facilitated the deal. Edited March 6, 2019 by Dr Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted March 6, 2019 Report Share Posted March 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said: I can't see in your link where a broker comes into this. Can you be more specific where brokers and estate agents are covered by this? I have down loaded the original PDf of the Act and can only (so far) find : “professional diligence” means the standard of special skill and care which a trader may reasonably be expected to exercise towards consumers which is commensurate with either— (a) honest market practice in the trader’s field of activity, or (b) the general principle of good faith in the trader’s field of activity; “ship” includes any boat and any other description of vessel used in navigation; “trader” means any person who in relation to a commercial practice is acting for purposes relating to his business, and anyone acting in the name of or on behalf of a trader; “ Which appears to relate to 'commercial traders;' selling boats, NOT to brokers representing a private seller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Bob Posted March 6, 2019 Report Share Posted March 6, 2019 4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: I have down loaded the original PDf of the Act and can only (so far) find : “professional diligence” means the standard of special skill and care which a trader may reasonably be expected to exercise towards consumers which is commensurate with either— (a) honest market practice in the trader’s field of activity, or (b) the general principle of good faith in the trader’s field of activity; “ship” includes any boat and any other description of vessel used in navigation; “trader” means any person who in relation to a commercial practice is acting for purposes relating to his business, and anyone acting in the name of or on behalf of a trader; “ Which appears to relate to 'commercial traders;' selling boats, NOT to brokers representing a private seller. I would agree. I don't think a broker can be a trader. A trader is someone who sells something. We need someone clever to answer this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted March 6, 2019 Report Share Posted March 6, 2019 Just now, Dr Bob said: We need someone clever to answer this. Do you think we will find one ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markinaboat Posted March 7, 2019 Report Share Posted March 7, 2019 On 25/02/2019 at 09:04, Loddon said: I remember Virginia well, a lady not to be trifled with. Never met John despite having many dealings with VC marine I always dealt with Virginia. a very colourful character and always with her two dogs in tow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlt Posted March 7, 2019 Report Share Posted March 7, 2019 I'd be more worried that it has been maintained by a practitioner of Naturopathic "Medicine" than the fact that it had been sunk. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted March 7, 2019 Report Share Posted March 7, 2019 48 minutes ago, carlt said: I'd be more worried that it has been maintained by a practitioner of Naturopathic "Medicine" than the fact that it had been sunk. The homeopaths do insist it's all down to the dilution .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland elsdon Posted March 7, 2019 Report Share Posted March 7, 2019 Homeopathic instruction for fitting weed hatch ‘close hatch’ correct instruction ensure gasket correctly fitted locate top plate in correct fashion tighten location bolts or clamp start engine place in gear and observe for leaks re check bolts or clamp. thats why homeopaths are not professionaly recognised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree monkey Posted March 7, 2019 Report Share Posted March 7, 2019 2 hours ago, roland elsdon said: Homeopathic instruction for fitting weed hatch ‘close hatch’ correct instruction ensure gasket correctly fitted locate top plate in correct fashion tighten location bolts or clamp start engine place in gear and observe for leaks re check bolts or clamp. thats why homeopaths are not professionaly recognised. Missed a bit.. On a boat 10,000 miles away 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland elsdon Posted March 7, 2019 Report Share Posted March 7, 2019 13000 at present but back soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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