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aracer

enforcement of mooring charge

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I know that if you park in a council car park and don't pay for a ticket you can be given a penalty charge notice which is legally enforceable and you can't ignore. However if you moor your boat up on a river next to the council car park where there are signs advising you to pay for mooring using the same P&D machines as used for the car park, what is the legal situation if you are issued with a ticket?

Is such a ticket in any way legally enforceable (it's certainly not a penalty charge notice)?

If you ignore it what would happen?

Is a local council entitled to ask for details of a boat owner from the CRT and is it a breach of data protection rules if the CRT supplies details to the council?

Does a council employee have any rights to place a notice on a moored boat, noting that they would have to trespass in order to do so?

 

#askingforafriend

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if the signs are legal then I would imagine so is the charge, its when there are no signs or signs that are not easily seen then you can challenge

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6 hours ago, aracer said:

I know that if you park in a council car park and don't pay for a ticket you can be given a penalty charge notice which is legally enforceable and you can't ignore. However if you moor your boat up on a river next to the council car park where there are signs advising you to pay for mooring using the same P&D machines as used for the car park, what is the legal situation if you are issued with a ticket?

Is such a ticket in any way legally enforceable (it's certainly not a penalty charge notice)?

If you ignore it what would happen?

Is a local council entitled to ask for details of a boat owner from the CRT and is it a breach of data protection rules if the CRT supplies details to the council?

Does a council employee have any rights to place a notice on a moored boat, noting that they would have to trespass in order to do so?

 

#askingforafriend

To me the relevant wording here is "River" - so yes if the council owns the riverbank you will have to pay and I guess the charge is therefore enforceable

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It wouldn't be a data protection breach because the council would have "just cause" to obtain your details. And how would fastening a notice to a boat be trespass? The Environment Agency use self-adhesive pouches to fix a notice to a boat's window. CRT has in the past cable-tied notices to mooring ropes. Errant owners have to be given legal notice in some logical way. 

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Given your location I assume you are talking about the race course moorings on the Severn at Worcester.  

 

As you say you pay at the car park pay and display using the boats index number as the registration number. This is exactly the same as you do at Henley on the Thames, where again it is council moorings this time by a park.  Presumably in both cases the council own the bank and are therefore entitled to charge you to moor, or simply not allow mooring.

 

When you bought your CRT licence you agreed that CRT can pass on your contact details so if you did not pay the mooring fee the council or other mooring operation (like the car park companies) will be able to get your details.

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19 minutes ago, john6767 said:

When you bought your CRT licence you agreed that CRT can pass on your contact details so if you did not pay the mooring fee the council or other mooring operation (like the car park companies) will be able to get your details.

From the T&C that you (compulsory) agreed to accept :

 

7.7 You agree that:
(i) we can board the Boat, and/or enter any land you own or occupy which is adjacent to the Boat, in order to affix or place on the Boat, correspondence, contractual or statutory notices or court papers; and
(ii) we can come on board the Boat to inspect it where we need to check you meet these Conditions and we can cross the Boat for the purpose of accessing any adjacent boat that cannot reasonably be accessed from the bank. We will give you reasonable notice if we consider it is practical to do so.


7.8 You agree that we may provide your relevant personal details including your contact details such as your name and address to any person (or the insurer of any person) who we believe has a reasonable interest in an incident or alleged incident involving the Boat which will generally be the case where for example personal injury or damage to property may have occurred.


7.9 You agree that where we believe you have failed to comply with the Conditions, we may exchange information relating to you and/ or the Boat with third parties who are assisting us in managing the situation such as contractors, mooring providers, individuals or organisations with a legitimate interest or duty in exchanging information about you.

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Hmm, I was hoping for replies from somebody who actually knew - it seems most are assuming the same rules apply as for car parking when as I pointed out that quite clearly isn't the case. There is specific legislation relating to car parking which allows councils to issue penalty notices which are legally enforceable. In the absence of any such specific legislation relating to boats then at most there would simply be a breach of contract which wouldn't be legally enforceable in anything like the same way. I note that whilst private car parks can enforce breaches of contract through the courts there is also specific legislation to help them which wouldn't apply to boats - one issue which springs to mind here is that only the person who moors the boat can possibly be in breach of any contract (in the same way that it is the driver not the owner liable for parking charges), but in the case of car parking there is specific legislation which allows the parking companies to force the registered keeper to provide details of the driver which doesn't exist for boats.

 

1 hour ago, Mike on the Wey said:

It wouldn't be a data protection breach because the council would have "just cause" to obtain your details.

Just cause on what basis exactly? Data protection law is quite strict and specific about when details can be passed on and in the absence of specific legislation I'm not sure a breach of contract is just cause.

56 minutes ago, john6767 said:

Presumably in both cases the council own the bank and are therefore entitled to charge you to moor, or simply not allow mooring.

They are - however I am interested in the legality of any action they might take if you fail to pay. I have a suspicion that they might just slap on a penalty charge notice as used for cars, which would quite clearly not be legally enforceable.

56 minutes ago, john6767 said:

 

When you bought your CRT licence you agreed that CRT can pass on your contact details so if you did not pay the mooring fee the council or other mooring operation (like the car park companies) will be able to get your details.

Thanks to Alan for providing the details of the conditions showing that isn't the case. I did wonder but hadn't been bothered to check the terms (sorry!)

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1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

I always wonder why anyone moors there

 

Or not in this case, it seems.  :blush:

edited for accuracy ;)

 

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15 minutes ago, aracer said:

Hmm, I was hoping for replies from somebody who actually knew - it seems most are assuming the same rules apply as for car parking when as I pointed out that quite clearly isn't the case. There is specific legislation relating to car parking which allows councils to issue penalty notices which are legally enforceable. In the absence of any such specific legislation relating to boats then at most there would simply be a breach of contract which wouldn't be legally enforceable in anything like the same way. I note that whilst private car parks can enforce breaches of contract through the courts there is also specific legislation to help them which wouldn't apply to boats - one issue which springs to mind here is that only the person who moors the boat can possibly be in breach of any contract (in the same way that it is the driver not the owner liable for parking charges), but in the case of car parking there is specific legislation which allows the parking companies to force the registered keeper to provide details of the driver which doesn't exist for boats.

 

Just cause on what basis exactly? Data protection law is quite strict and specific about when details can be passed on and in the absence of specific legislation I'm not sure a breach of contract is just cause.

They are - however I am interested in the legality of any action they might take if you fail to pay. I have a suspicion that they might just slap on a penalty charge notice as used for cars, which would quite clearly not be legally enforceable.

Thanks to Alan for providing the details of the conditions showing that isn't the case. I did wonder but hadn't been bothered to check the terms (sorry!)

You have agreed to your details to be passed on, I can’t see why it needs you to be in be in breach of any legislation for that to happen.

 

If you want to know what Worcester council do why don’t you ask them, as a public body I believe they will have to give you an answer, or you can make a freedom of information request.

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2 minutes ago, john6767 said:

You have agreed to your details to be passed on, I can’t see why it needs you to be in be in breach of any legislation for that to happen.

You should probably check in exactly what circumstances you have agreed for your details to be passed on - Alan has quoted what is presumably the relevant part of the terms up there.

 

I was kind of interested whether anybody had any specific knowledge of the legality of what they might do, given there are some very knowledgeable people on here.

Edited by aracer

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2 minutes ago, aracer said:

You should probably check in exactly what circumstances you have agreed for your details to be passed on - Alan has quoted what is presumably the relevant part of the terms up there.

C&RT can pass on your personal details under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TO ANY PERSON that they decide can have them, they have simply given examples.

 

There was uproar from a couple of the boating organisations and legal advice that it is against the 'personal information' guidelines, but being C&RT they went ahead and did it anyway.

 

"You agree that we may provide your relevant personal details including your contact details such as your name and address to any person...…………"

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RT can pass on your personal details under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TO ANY PERSON that they decide can have them, they have simply given examples.

 

There was uproar from a couple of the boating organisations and legal advice that it is against the 'personal information' guidelines, but being C&RT they went ahead and did it anyway.

 

"You agree that we may provide your relevant personal details including your contact details such as your name and address to any person...…………"

Not on the basis of the term you quoted up there they can't - you snipped the relevant bit from the end of that: "who we believe has a reasonable interest in an incident or alleged incident", so in the absence of such an incident then you haven't agreed to your details being passed on. Whilst they might pass on details in other circumstances, that certainly isn't something I have agreed to, and I know enough law that if they did I would be taking them to court.

 

I note that a breach of contract quite clearly isn't an "incident" covered by that term (the law is quite specific and given the only example they do give, any judge would laugh at their lawyer if he suggested it was).

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1 minute ago, aracer said:

Not on the basis of the term you quoted up there they can't - you snipped the relevant bit from the end of that: "who we believe has a reasonable interest in an incident

They have apparently already passed on details of boat owners to 'parking enforcement' companies.

 

They decide what is a 'reasonable interest'.

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8 minutes ago, aracer said:

Not on the basis of the term you quoted up there they can't - you snipped the relevant bit from the end of that: "who we believe has a reasonable interest in an incident or alleged incident", so in the absence of such an incident then you haven't agreed to your details being passed on. Whilst they might pass on details in other circumstances, that certainly isn't something I have agreed to, and I know enough law that if they did I would be taking them to court.

 

I note that a breach of contract quite clearly isn't an "incident" covered by that term (the law is quite specific and given the only example they do give, any judge would laugh at their lawyer if he suggested it was).

It looks like non of us so far have the answer to your question. Probably because it never arises by those who dont abuse anything on the system. I for instance am still awaiting my first prosecution of any kind down to my use of my boat for thirty years. It appears  your friend  must have been dead unlucky for some reason? or just want to know if its possible to push the boundries at that particular mooring?

  • Greenie 2

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Pay the fee. Irrelevant if legal or not. We moored there. No issues. Took a while for this aging brainbox to click into gear and realise a ten minute walk was required to obtain a ticket.

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9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

They have apparently already passed on details of boat owners to 'parking enforcement' companies.

 

They decide what is a 'reasonable interest'.

Which as I already pointed out would be a breach of data protection, because you quite clearly haven't given crt permission to pass on details in those circumstances. They might like to think they get to decide, but legally they don't - that term certainly doesn't give them permission to decide to pass on details for something which isn't an incident involving personal injury or damage to property. Such breaches are taken quite seriously (I've worked in situations handling personal data so know how important complying exactly with the permissions you've been given is - I do wonder if crt is even gdpr compliant if that is their attitude). 

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14 minutes ago, aracer said:

Which as I already pointed out would be a breach of data protection, because you quite clearly haven't given crt permission to pass on details in those circumstances. They might like to think they get to decide, but legally they don't - that term certainly doesn't give them permission to decide to pass on details for something which isn't an incident involving personal injury or damage to property. Such breaches are taken quite seriously (I've worked in situations handling personal data so know how important complying exactly with the permissions you've been given is - I do wonder if crt is even gdpr compliant if that is their attitude). 

Be the one who challenges it in court and see what happens then. At the moment (I believe....) nobody has done this yet, so while the words are there in the T&C, and they do look shaky, that's about as much as anyone can advise. I would have a suspicion that passing contact details on, for mooring enforcement, to a local council would fall under one of the instances where a body CAN pass data on (not necessarily needing consent either).

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51 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Be the one who challenges it in court and see what happens then. At the moment (I believe....) nobody has done this yet, so while the words are there in the T&C, and they do look shaky, that's about as much as anyone can advise. I would have a suspicion that passing contact details on, for mooring enforcement, to a local council would fall under one of the instances where a body CAN pass data on (not necessarily needing consent either).

I'm no expert but wouldn't it be cheaper to pay the parking/mooring fee than the irretrievable costs of court action?

 

I won a court action and got my costs but the whole thing still cost me more than a parking fee.

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1 hour ago, aracer said:

You should probably check in exactly what circumstances you have agreed for your details to be passed on - Alan has quoted what is presumably the relevant part of the terms up there.

 

I was kind of interested whether anybody had any specific knowledge of the legality of what they might do, given there are some very knowledgeable people on here.

Why do I need to check this?  It is clear inwhat it says in the T&C’s that you agree to when you buy a licence.

1 hour ago, Phil Ambrose said:

Go on, live on the wild side and refuse to pay  then you can report back to us on the outcome 😊

Phil

I doubt much will happen as I suspect no one comes a checks in Worcester.  At the end of the day it is £4 that we are talking about here, and if you don’t like it you can use the CRT pontoon at Diglis or go up onto the canal.

  • Greenie 1

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6 minutes ago, frahkn said:

I'm no expert but wouldn't it be cheaper to pay the parking/mooring fee than the irretrievable costs of court action?

 

I won a court action and got my costs but the whole thing still cost me more than a parking fee.

I'm a bit confused on what you're comparing, and why. You can't compare the potential cost of a court action (presumably it would be some kind of counterclaim or defence against a fine/penalty for non-payment) to the cost of a single-time parking/mooring, they're not really equivalent.

 

Also if you won a court action and got your costs, then by definition it should have cost you £0? If it didn't, then you didn't fully recover your costs.

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15 minutes ago, john6767 said:

Why do I need to check this?  It is clear inwhat it says in the T&C’s that you agree to when you buy a licence.

It is, and Alan even handily quoted it up there, but either you've not read it or you've not comprehended (or not read my comments where I've pointed out that I've done work where I've had to comply with data protection regulations, so I know that it's very strict and that you can't assume that a precise permission gives you permission to release data in different circumstances).

15 minutes ago, john6767 said:

I doubt much will happen as I suspect no one comes a checks in Worcester.

Well that shows how much you know - I certainly know that somebody has been ticketed, but there isn't sufficient information available to determine the exact situation.

15 minutes ago, john6767 said:

if you don’t like it you can use the CRT pontoon at Diglis

😂 that would be really useful for my friend 😂

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https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/lawful-basis-for-processing/

 

(e) Public task: the processing is necessary for you to perform a task in the public interest or for your official functions, and the task or function has a clear basis in law.

 

Given the above, I'd say that the passing of data from CRT to a local authority for mooring enforcement falls under the "Public task" basis; CRT may be non-compliant with respect to informing people of its lawful basis (for example, I believe the T&Cs haven't been updated specifically for GDPR, and might rely on a catch all "this gives consent" where this can no longer be the case, etc etc); and its own documentation. This is not the same as a data breach though.

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33 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I'm a bit confused on what you're comparing, and why. You can't compare the potential cost of a court action (presumably it would be some kind of counterclaim or defence against a fine/penalty for non-payment) to the cost of a single-time parking/mooring, they're not really equivalent.

 

Also if you won a court action and got your costs, then by definition it should have cost you £0? If it didn't, then you didn't fully recover your costs.

Happy to help with your confusion, here goes.

 

The OP began by asking "if you moor your boat up on a river next to the council car park where there are signs advising you to pay for mooring.... what is the legal situation if you are issued with a ticket?". You urged the OP to pursue court action (in post 19). If the mooring fee was paid in the first place, hopefully there would be no ticket.

 

I'm not about to send you the documents but I give you my word that I won, I was awarded my costs in full, the other party paid them (after a little delay) with no problems, I was out of pocket because "your full legal costs" are rarely the sum of the amount spent on the action.

 

To be fair I shouldn't say "rarely" based on a sample of one. I didn't completely cover my costs and my solicitor said not to expect to.

Edited by frahkn
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