Refleks stove problems

[frahkn]

OK, I'm going to reply to posts 22, 23, 24 & 25 because I seem to have a problem which presents exactly as the OP's albeit I have cobbled a solution.

 

My regulator is not a "toby" but nor is it exactly like the one pictured at 22. It is like 23 as far as I can see but absent the circular aluminium gubbins on the left. In place of this, there is an on/off tap.

 

The clearance rod is exactly as 23 and works perfectly.

 

Left to itself, my lever is in the up position though it will not latch there. While up it gives exactly the problem described by the OP, diesel flows at first but cuts off after a few moments whether the stove is alight or not. The lever moves down easily but a significant weight (3 or 4 oz) is required to hold it there (where it has been for about 5 years).

 

I do need to clean and adjust my regulator because the fire has always burned a bit yellow (though it does not smell and it provides loads of heat). I have not got round to it because it doesn't seem urgent - I'm a bit of the "if it ain't broke.... persuasion.

 

My stove is fed from the main fuel tank 50' away so has a pump near the tank. In practise this pump can be switched off about an hour after lighting without affecting the supply to the stove at all. The pump is near the bed so we always switch it off at night, the stove is always alight in the morning.

 

Due to the position of the stove and regulator I cannot take the top off nor fiddle with the high and low adjustor screws while the regulator is attached to the stove. Particularly while the stove is hot. I may alter the piping to reposition the regulator if I ever take it off for cleaning. 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by frahkn

[magictime]

14 hours ago, frahkn said:

 

Why not, it's worth a try - stick some chewing gum under it. After all, per posts 8 & 9, if it's not up you can expect armageddon at the very least, possibly something more serious!

 

Mine can't be latched either, left to its own devices it will stay up.

 

One thought, could it be as simple as a partial vacuum in the fuel tank? Has the breather hole (or whatever replaces it) become blocked?

I'll take a look, but the flow of diesel into the burner looks about as good as it ever did, I think...

 

13 hours ago, LEO said:

Hi, as a matter of interest, which regulator do you have.the old style one or a now Toby unit?.

The Toby.

 

4 hours ago, eid said:

 

 

Have you used the clearance rod, and remembered to pull it back out, as below?

 

Yep, more than once!

 

4 hours ago, eid said:

 

The lever should be in the down position. It should not however "drop down again" after being pushed up. At least, not very far. It sounds like it isn't down far enough. You should be able to easily hear it "latch" as it's mechanism engages. There would be some resistance to being pushed up when it's properly latched too.

If this isn't happening then something inside your regulator is causing the safety mechanism to activate, stopping it from latching.

You could test this by holding it down manually while you light it but I wouldn't recommend weighing it down; it's there for a reason.

 

OK that's weird then. It's never been any different though and we've never had an issue before (apart from the odd failure to stay lit and one time the filter needed cleaning).

 

3 hours ago, koukouvagia said:

OK so what has been established?

- I seems that the pipe work and burner pot have been cleaned

- I'm not sure that the thermocouple has been eliminated - is there one, in fact?

- You say that the cut-off lever sits naturally in the down position.  This is correct.  (If it won't latch, it means that there is too much diesel in the regulator).

- Can you confirm the regulator is like the first one of Leo's pictures?

 

Other tests

What happens if you leave the fuel on for say five minutes without lighting? The fuel should pool in the bottom of the burner pot and you'll have to mop it out, but at least you will verify that fuel is flowing through the regulator.

Is the fuel in the regulator up to the correct level (this is marked on the outside of the case).  What happens if you depress the float slightly?

 

If there's only a trickle coming into the burner pot then it's time to clean out the regulator, paying particular attention to the metering stem.  Be careful not to damage the fine slot on the metering stem.

 

Check that the regulator knob is actually lifting the metering stem.  I have known this to have become lose so that the metering stem remains in the off (down) position.  It appears to the user that the flow is being turned up, but in fact, nothing is happening.

 

I'm presuming that no one has fiddled with the high and low fire adjustments.  Also has the trim of the boat altered?  This can affect the flow of diesel.

 

My bet is still on a dirty regulator.

 

 

Erm... I don't know what a thermocouple is. The regulator is the Toby, as per the second picture, so I don't know if that affects the other points you make about the regulator? I'm pretty sure the knob is controlling the flow, though, because (without actually looking at the metering stem) turning it does seem to affect the size of the flame. As for the flow, it depends what you mean by 'pool' and 'trickle'! I mean, it's a slow flow and after five minutes I'd only expect to have a pool a millimetre or two deep - little enough that I can typically do this, light the burner, turn off the diesel for 10 mins, turn it back on, and not have the stove overheat.

 

As for 'too much diesel in the regulator' - why would this be and what would I do about it (and would it cause the symptoms described, beyond the lever not latching?)

 

Best sense I can make of it - given that the flow looks OK before lighting, but I get this crackling noise and the burner burns dry after 15 mins or so, is that the liquid I'm seeing flow into the burner is actually part diesel and part water... I dunno.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, magictime said:

Erm... I don't know what a thermocouple is.

 

The thermocouple is part of the flame failure device (FFD). The FFD IS the middle one of the three components in the photo of the back of the stove in Leo's photo, and the thermocouple is the bit that looks like a brass pipe that goes from the top of the FFD and into the stove, just above the burner pot. 

 

It's purpose is to prevent oil getting into the stove if the flame goes out. This is why you have to press the FFD override button (on the bottom of the FFD and operated on the stove in Leo's photo by a metal bar from the front of the stove) to get oil into the stove and for 1 to 1.5 minutes after the stove is alight, until the thermocouple had heated up enough to operate the valve in the FFD.

 

They are simple and cheap to replace, simply by undoing the nuts which hold the two end's in place. However the come in various lengths, so it is best to take the old one to a plumbers merchants so that you get one of the correct length. If necessary thermocouples can be shortened by creating loops in them behind the stove, so that it fits neatly.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by cuthound
To add the last paragraph

[Mr Pugs]

had this problem this week   air lock     not a full flow down the pipe to the regulator  disconnect the pipe feeding the regulator and check for full flow

 

[frahkn]

42 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

The thermocouple is part of the flame failure device (FFD). The FFD IS the middle one of the three components in the photo of the back of the stove in Leo's photo, and the thermocouple is the bit that looks like a brass pipe that goes from the top of the FFD and into the stove, just above the burner pot. 

 

It's purpose is to prevent oil getting into the stove if the flame goes out. This is why you have to press the FFD override button (on the bottom of the FFD and operated on the stove in Leo's photo by a metal bar from the front of the stove) to get oil into the stove and for 1 to 1.5 minutes after the stove is alight, until the thermocouple had heated up enough to operate the valve in the FFD.

 

They are simple and cheap to replace, simply by undoing the nuts which hold the two end's in place. However the come in various lengths, so it is best to take the old one to a plumbers merchants so that you get one of the correct length. If necessary thermocouples can be shortened by creating loops in them behind the stove, so that it fits neatly.

 

 

I'm sure I don't have any of that stuff - I might stop and show you next time I am passing, if that's ok.

[cuthound]

1 minute ago, frahkn said:

I'm sure I don't have any of that stuff - I might stop and show you next time I am passing, if that's ok.

 

No problem, I think I've only seen Twisted Reach once and even then I didn't realise it was you until you posted something on CWDF!

 

I'm more than happy to have a look at your stove to see If you have a thermocouple.

[koukouvagia]

I hadn't realised that the OP has new type Toby valve.  There is a known problem with these which exactly mirrors the symptoms you are describing.  An airlock can form in the valve. Sometimes tapping the regulator releases this, but occasionally the regulator has to be dismantled and a wire is fed into release the bubbles.

 

[magictime]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

The thermocouple is part of the flame failure device (FFD). The FFD IS the middle one of the three components in the photo of the back of the stove in Leo's photo, and the thermocouple is the bit that looks like a brass pipe that goes from the top of the FFD and into the stove, just above the burner pot. 

 

It's purpose is to prevent oil getting into the stove if the flame goes out. This is why you have to press the FFD override button (on the bottom of the FFD and operated on the stove in Leo's photo by a metal bar from the front of the stove) to get oil into the stove and for 1 to 1.5 minutes after the stove is alight, until the thermocouple had heated up enough to operate the valve in the FFD.

 

They are simple and cheap to replace, simply by undoing the nuts which hold the two end's in place. However the come in various lengths, so it is best to take the old one to a plumbers merchants so that you get one of the correct length. If necessary thermocouples can be shortened by creating loops in them behind the stove, so that it fits neatly.

 

 

Yeah, but...

 

50 minutes ago, koukouvagia said:

I hadn't realised that the OP has new type Toby valve.  There is a known problem with these which exactly mirrors the symptoms you are describing.  An airlock can form in the valve. Sometimes tapping the regulator releases this, but occasionally the regulator has to be dismantled and a wire is fed into release the bubbles.

 

...so I don't think any of that applies!

 

Thanks koukouvagia - that is interesting. If I fancied dismantling the regulator again, is this 'feeding a wire in' business easy enough to do? Feed it into what? The hole the pointy needle thingy pokes down into? 

 

And when you say it matches my symptoms, is that across the board - e.g. including the crackling noise and the fact the flows looks normal initially, when filling the burner?

 

It would make sense to me I guess, albeit as a near-complete ignoramus, that the fuel tank running dry might let air into the system, and it was after that that the problem started.

[LEO]

1 hour ago, koukouvagia said:

I hadn't realised that the OP has new type Toby valve.  There is a known problem with these which exactly mirrors the symptoms you are describing.  An airlock can form in the valve. Sometimes tapping the regulator releases this, but occasionally the regulator has to be dismantled and a wire is fed into release the bubbles.

 

Also....the Toby valve has an inbuilt flame failure shut off valve. It might be worth the OP downloading instructions for this valve....do you have a link? This shows how to reset this if it is 'tripped'.

I think the filter is partly blocked and there is some water in the system .... it got stirred up when being refilled from empty.

[koukouvagia]

4 hours ago, magictime said:

Yeah, but...

 

...so I don't think any of that applies!

 

Thanks koukouvagia - that is interesting. If I fancied dismantling the regulator again, is this 'feeding a wire in' business easy enough to do? Feed it into what? The hole the pointy needle thingy pokes down into? 

 

And when you say it matches my symptoms, is that across the board - e.g. including the crackling noise and the fact the flows looks normal initially, when filling the burner?

 

If tapping the Toby valve doesn't release the airlock, you can feed a wire or a paperclip gently through the air vent on the top of the valve, pointing it backwards, to depress the float.  This allows more fuel to flow into the regulator, freeing the air lock.  It is quite likely that an airlock could occur after running out of fuel.  The makers of the Toby valve recommend that the fuel line is purged by undoing the union at the Toby valve and allowing fuel to flow out until there are no bubbles.

The "crackling" sound does sound like contaminated diesel.  You can sometimes see wisps of steam.

 

[Ex Brummie]

Here we go.

The Toby valve does not have a flame failure valve. Neither does the BM valve used on earlier models, or the CI version. There is a safety latch on the float assembly which operates if the valve floods, or the level is lifted by heavy movement. If the safety latch is operating it is probable the oil level is set too high. Some stoves have a separate magnetic flame failure valve operated by a thermocouple which closes the fuel supply if the flame goes out. If the thermocouple gets 'tired', then all the heat in the world will not open it.

I've yet to see an airlock in any oil control valve (OCV), and the construction of them precludes the possibility of one. What can happen in an OCV is that the metering column can become obstructed by contaminated fuel. The metering column dispenses fuel into the burner at the pre determined rate. This can be measured with a suitably calibrated container and a stop watch, or even a measuring medicine spoon. Any oil supply pipe can develop an airlock, especially if the line is wavy or there is very little head to the valve. A line filter in a low head supply can cause more problems than it solves. There is a filter in all OCV's which is more than sufficient.

A yellow flame is not necessarily an indication of too much fuel; if there is insufficient flue draught for the amount of fuel delivered then the result is the same. The valves are calibrated to deliver the design output of the appliance. Flue draught requirements are also specified by the manufacturer but are misunderstood or, or ignored, by users. Most diyers would not have the equipment to check flue draught.

Basically oil drip stoves are simple things, and if ALL the simple things are done, they work. The greatest problem with OCV's is the failure of the nut on the end of the screwdriver that is adjusting the flow rates.

 

[jenevers]

I cleaned my Old Dutch regulator yesterday. It had about 10 mm of mayonaise-like gunge in the bottom and the filter had soot-like deposits. I run about teaspoon of diesel into the pot plus the same amount of method. Runs well virtually on the minimum setting. Remember to push the little button up on the anti-boil device. Actually I saw an Old Dutch that had 2 similar devices, would 1 have been to stop the diesel flow if the flame went out?

[magictime]

Sorry for the lack of updates to those who've been trying to help. I've given up. Not only do we have the problem we previously had, but we now have a slow leak of diesel from the connection between the regulator and the pipe leading to the stove (presumably from where we took it off to clean it and haven't managed to get it back on properly). Rather than keep digging the whole we're in by poking paperclips into this and letting bubbles come out of that, I think we're going to call somebody who knows what they're doing.

 

So... DOES anyone know of a Refleks specialist up north? Someone who can fix and service this thing properly?

[frahkn]

28 minutes ago, magictime said:

Sorry for the lack of updates to those who've been trying to help. I've given up. Not only do we have the problem we previously had, but we now have a slow leak of diesel from the connection between the regulator and the pipe leading to the stove (presumably from where we took it off to clean it and haven't managed to get it back on properly). Rather than keep digging the whole we're in by poking paperclips into this and letting bubbles come out of that, I think we're going to call somebody who knows what they're doing.

 

So... DOES anyone know of a Refleks specialist up north? Someone who can fix and service this thing properly?

 

No, I've been looking (on and off) for years, I even contacted Lockgate in Shardlow. No reply and they moved soon afterwards, possibly to avoid me.

 

So if you find someone please let me know.

[koukouvagia]

16 minutes ago, magictime said:

Sorry for the lack of updates to those who've been trying to help. I've given up. Not only do we have the problem we previously had, but we now have a slow leak of diesel from the connection between the regulator and the pipe leading to the stove (presumably from where we took it off to clean it and haven't managed to get it back on properly). Rather than keep digging the whole we're in by poking paperclips into this and letting bubbles come out of that, I think we're going to call somebody who knows what they're doing.

 

So... DOES anyone know of a Refleks specialist up north? Someone who can fix and service this thing properly?

I think perhaps you are wise to give up, since you seem to be making matters worse

In fact, the Refleks is an extremely simple device and there is plenty of advice online showing how to trouble-shoot. I don't think you need a Refleks specialist per se.  There are, basically only four things that can cause problems: 

- poor flue draw

- dirty pipes, filters and the inside of the regulator

- wrongly adjusted high and low fire screws

- airlock

(plus, possibly, but unlikely, a badly trimmed boat)

Best of luck.  Let us know how you get on.

[BruceinSanity]

1 hour ago, magictime said:

DOES anyone know of a Refleks specialist up north? Someone who can fix and service this thing properly?

Braidbar have installed plenty so if you’re on the Macc it might be worth giving them a call. I doubt if they’ll come out to you, though, unless you’re in one of their boats and the hourly rate will be quite high. What about Steve at Kings Lock, otherwise?

[cuthound]

IIRC Ed Shires of Four Counties Marine services oil drip stoves.

 

https://fourcountiesmarineservices.com