Refleks stove problems

[magictime]

Been faffing around with the stove all day today. It used up all the fuel in its (separate) tank yesterday, and today we refilled the tank only to find no diesel coming through when we turned it on at the regulator. So we went through the rigmarole of cleaning the filter, cleaned out the soot in the bottom of the burner while we were at it, didn't seem to be getting anywhere - then came back to it an hour or two later to find what looks to me like a pretty good flow of diesel again. Hard to say if it's as much as 'normal', as it looks quite different from what I've been used to with all the soot sitting in the bottom - but a gradual spreading 'stain' building up over a few minutes to a film (not really a pool) of diesel. So I light it using my usual method - diesel off, firelighter in, light and wait a few minutes, diesel back on low. I'm on my fifth attempt at this point I think, having tried variations like putting in a bit more or a bit less diesel, and every time all has looked fine for about 15 minutes before the cage visibly cools and I'm left with just a sort of 'pilot light' emerging from the diesel outlet itself. It seems like a lack of diesel, I guess, except that every time I start over, I think the flow looks fine. Any ideas?

[starman]

I found ours always harder to get started and run after a clean out - it seemed to prefer having a bit of carbon on the base. Not sure what to advise though: maybe try letting it run on a higher setting for longer? Might there be some air locks in the fuel supply line?

[koukouvagia]

You have done most of the obvious things, but have you removed and cleaned out the curved pipe that leads from the regulator to the inlet at the bottom of the stove?  This is where condensation collects.  Even though you may be getting a flow into the bottom of the pot, the diesel may be contaminated.

Also, have you cleaned out the inside of the regulator?  It's surprising how much gunge can collect in this.

 

eta I've put some instructions on servicing a Refleks here: https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/51727-how-to-service-a-refleks-heater/&

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by koukouvagia

[cuthound]

When i got my boat with a Kabola Old Dutch oil stove (virtually the same as a Reflecks), I couldn't light it. I phoned Kabola, who advised me to run a 50p piece sized puddle of oil into the burner, then turn the regulator off, add 2 capfuls of methylated spirits, light that to warm the stove and chimney, then when the blue meths flames have almost gone out turn the regulator to setting 2 and manually operate the flame failure overide for 90 seconds. 

 

This method has never let me down.

[magictime]

9 hours ago, koukouvagia said:

You have done most of the obvious things, but have you removed and cleaned out the curved pipe that leads from the regulator to the inlet at the bottom of the stove?  This is where condensation collects.  Even though you may be getting a flow into the bottom of the pot, the diesel may be contaminated.

Also, have you cleaned out the inside of the regulator?  It's surprising how much gunge can collect in this.

 

eta I've put some instructions on servicing a Refleks here: https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/51727-how-to-service-a-refleks-heater/&

 

Thanks for this. We have cleaned out the inside of the regulator, but not the pipe. And we did have a funny crackling noise during one of our attempts yesterday, which my wife thinks she'd read somewhere might be a sign of water getting in? (Not the usual crackling of the metal expanding or whatever.)

 

Do I have to clean that pipe out, or will it burn off with a few more tries, do you think? I have zero practical skills/know-how and would rather avoid tinkering wherever possible!

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

When i got my boat with a Kabola Old Dutch oil stove (virtually the same as a Reflecks), I couldn't light it. I phoned Kabola, who advised me to run a 50p piece sized puddle of oil into the burner, then turn the regulator off, add 2 capfuls of methylated spirits, light that to warm the stove and chimney, then when the blue meths flames have almost gone out turn the regulator to setting 2 and manually operate the flame failure overide for 90 seconds. 

 

This method has never let me down.

Thanks. I don't know how I'd run a 50p sized pool in if I wanted to though - the diesel spreads evenly across the whole floor of the burner before it starts to pool. And my method has always worked fine, and it's not as if the fire is actually going out or failing to light as such - more that once the original diesel has burned off, it's not being replaced quickly enough - I think! I'll definitely keep this up my sleeve though.

[frahkn]

4 minutes ago, magictime said:

 

  more that once the original diesel has burned off, it's not being replaced quickly enough - I think! I'll definitely keep this up my sleeve though.

 

I had exactly this problem - though it was intermittent. I solved it by the (potentially dangerous I suppose) act of holding the flame failure lever down permanently, with a small weight on a magnet. For the first year I never left the boat with the stove alight but now (after five years) I have become complacent and think it will be ok.

 

I keep promising that "next summer" I will take the regulator off and service it.

 

I am not suggesting that you do this, merely explaining that it worked for me.

[magictime]

5 minutes ago, frahkn said:

 

I had exactly this problem - though it was intermittent. I solved it by the (potentially dangerous I suppose) act of holding the flame failure lever down permanently, with a small weight on a magnet. For the first year I never left the boat with the stove alight but now (after five years) I have become complacent and think it will be ok.

 

I keep promising that "next summer" I will take the regulator off and service it.

 

I am not suggesting that you do this, merely explaining that it worked for me.

Yeah... not sure if I should be admitting this but I'm I'm not sure what/where the 'flame failure lever' is?

[koukouvagia]

39 minutes ago, magictime said:

Thanks for this. We have cleaned out the inside of the regulator, but not the pipe. And we did have a funny crackling noise during one of our attempts yesterday, which my wife thinks she'd read somewhere might be a sign of water getting in? (Not the usual crackling of the metal expanding or whatever.)

 

Do I have to clean that pipe out, or will it burn off with a few more tries, do you think? I have zero practical skills/know-how and would rather avoid tinkering wherever possible!

Almost certainly you have water in the fuel.  I doubt whether you'll clear the problem by repeating the lighting procedure.  

The pipe in question requires very little tinkering!  Turn off the fuel going to the regulator; put a receptacle under the pipe to catch any overflow (there won't be more than half a cup full); loosen the nuts at either end of the pipe and it will come off easily.  To clean it I tie a piece of rag/tissue to a piece of string and pull it through the pipe.

 

By the way, I wouldn't hold down the cut off lever because if there's a fault in the regulator itself you could potentially empty the contents of your diesel tank into the burner!

 

[Ex Brummie]

Remind me to moor well away from Twisted Reach!!!!!

 

[cuthound]

4 hours ago, magictime said:

Thanks. I don't know how I'd run a 50p sized pool in if I wanted to though - the diesel spreads evenly across the whole floor of the burner before it starts to pool. And my method has always worked fine, and it's not as if the fire is actually going out or failing to light as such - more that once the original diesel has burned off, it's not being replaced quickly enough - I think! I'll definitely keep this up my sleeve though.

 You run a 50p sized pool by doing what you do to to get the diesel to spread evenly across the whole floor of the stove, but turn the regulator to off when the pool, whoch spreads outwards from the inlet point reaches the size of a 50p coin.

 

If you have too much oil in the burner pot when you light it, the stove can "run away" and get hot enough to glow cherry red before the excess oil can be burned off.

Edited February 19, 2019 by cuthound
To add the last paragraph

[frahkn]

3 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

Remind me to moor well away from Twisted Reach!!!!!

 

 

I was worried my self at first but it has been 5 years and two BSSs without a problem so perhaps it's less of an issue than it appears.

 

Then again, maybe it's not!

[cuthound]

1 minute ago, frahkn said:

 

I was worried my self at first but it has been 5 years and two BSSs without a problem so perhaps it's less of an issue than it appears.

 

Then again, maybe it's not!

 

My oil drip stove has not been tested, only visually inspected for my two BSS's. The only thing an oil drip stove is likely to fail on is cracked "glass" or a hole somewhere.

 

It sounds like your thermocouple has failed. It is a simple job to remove and take to a plumbers merchant for identification and replacement.

 

 

[LEO]

8 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

My oil drip stove has not been tested, only visually inspected for my two BSS's. The only thing an oil drip stove is likely to fail on is cracked "glass" or a hole somewhere.

 

It sounds like your thermocouple has failed. It is a simple job to remove and take to a plumbers merchant for identification and replacement.

 

 

It could be damaged, by cleaning, but Refleks may not have this feature fitted. My fire is a Kabola OD4 ( the same model as yours). Unless the copper pipe that KK mentions has been cleaned recently it could be the problem. It caused problems on the kabola I have. I note the OP ran out of fuel and had the tank refilled, bet this stirred up the 'crud' at the bottom of the tank!.

 

I have attached a picture of the pipe to be cleaned. I poked a lot of tarry gunge out of the pipe fitted to my fire.

 

 

[luggsy]

Could it be the thermocouple ? When I first got our lockgate we had the same problem could light it but after 15 minutes it would go out turns out they had not tightened the thermocouple probe

[starman]

4 hours ago, cuthound said:

 You run a 50p sized pool by doing what you do to to get the diesel to spread evenly across the whole floor of the stove, but turn the regulator to off when the pool, whoch spreads outwards from the inlet point reaches the size of a 50p coin.

 

If you have too much oil in the burner pot when you light it, the stove can "run away" and get hot enough to glow cherry red before the excess oil can be burned off.

I use this method but without the added meths - just chucked a match down into the puddle of diesel. Let it burn until the flame starts to droop a little then turn the regulator back on to the usual running setting.

And, yes, you do have to turn the regulator off when you've run in that first puddle of diesel - I've got distracted and forgotten a couple of times and had to soak out all the surplus diesel with a roll of toilet paper stuffed down into the chamber. Messy business. Even if you think you've soaked it all up it can still burn pretty scarily hot when first lit - I used a big kettle of water on the top as a heat soak.

[frahkn]

8 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

My oil drip stove has not been tested, only visually inspected for my two BSS's. The only thing an oil drip stove is likely to fail on is cracked "glass" or a hole somewhere.

 

It sounds like your thermocouple has failed. It is a simple job to remove and take to a plumbers merchant for identification and replacement.

 

 

 

I speak from a position of profound ignorance here but I don't think there is a thermocouple. It's certainly not obvious and I doubt that the flame has an area of concentration where one could be located.

 

The symptoms are very similar but don't occur when the lever is held open; it is far from clear (at least to me) why this should be the case but we have a summer coming, thus another chance for me to look at the regulator.

[magictime]

Well, we took that pipe off and did our best to clean it, and nothing's changed. Stove behaves as normal for 5-10 minutes, then 5-10 minutes of good burning but with a crackling noise, then the flame dies down until it's just a (fairly large) curl of fire coming out of the diesel inlet. Anybody know of a Refleks specialist, preferably but not necessarily in the Yorkshire area? At this stage in the year I'm wondering if we should just manage with the Mikuni until spring if necessary, then arrange a Refleks service at some point before next winter and hopefully sort this problem at that point.

[frahkn]

2 hours ago, magictime said:

Well, we took that pipe off and did our best to clean it, and nothing's changed. Stove behaves as normal for 5-10 minutes, then 5-10 minutes of good burning but with a crackling noise, then the flame dies down until it's just a (fairly large) curl of fire coming out of the diesel inlet. Anybody know of a Refleks specialist, preferably but not necessarily in the Yorkshire area? At this stage in the year I'm wondering if we should just manage with the Mikuni until spring if necessary, then arrange a Refleks service at some point before next winter and hopefully sort this problem at that point.

 

If you are at this stage, would it not be worth giving my method a try, at least for a few hours, under observation to ensure that no problem occurs.

 

Although I cannot provide a reasoned explanation of why it works for me, I can guarantee that it does.

 

In reply to post 7 - it is a small metal lever which sticks out from one end of the regulator. I'm not on the boat or I'd include a photo.

[KevMc]

2 hours ago, magictime said:

Well, we took that pipe off and did our best to clean it, and nothing's changed. Stove behaves as normal for 5-10 minutes, then 5-10 minutes of good burning but with a crackling noise, then the flame dies down until it's just a (fairly large) curl of fire coming out of the diesel inlet. Anybody know of a Refleks specialist, preferably but not necessarily in the Yorkshire area? At this stage in the year I'm wondering if we should just manage with the Mikuni until spring if necessary, then arrange a Refleks service at some point before next winter and hopefully sort this problem at that point.

This sounds similar to what happens if I forget to turn on the central heating pump when the Refleks is lit ..... I think that the water in the back boiler must be getting too hot and tripping a safety switch. Of course that may have nothing to do with your situation.

[magictime]

11 hours ago, frahkn said:

 

If you are at this stage, would it not be worth giving my method a try, at least for a few hours, under observation to ensure that no problem occurs.

 

Although I cannot provide a reasoned explanation of why it works for me, I can guarantee that it does.

 

In reply to post 7 - it is a small metal lever which sticks out from one end of the regulator. I'm not on the boat or I'd include a photo.

Yeah, I think the instructions call it the 'control lever'? Anyway ours sits in the 'down' position by default - maybe it shouldn't? - so there's no question of weighing it down. I could try holding it up I guess. It's funny, the instructions insist it must be 'latched', but all you can do with it is lift it up and let it drop down again. In any case we've had no problems before this week.

 

11 hours ago, KevMc said:

This sounds similar to what happens if I forget to turn on the central heating pump when the Refleks is lit ..... I think that the water in the back boiler must be getting too hot and tripping a safety switch. Of course that may have nothing to do with your situation.

We don't have a back boiler so that's one possibility ruled out, at least!

[frahkn]

36 minutes ago, magictime said:

Yeah, I think the instructions call it the 'control lever'? Anyway ours sits in the 'down' position by default - maybe it shouldn't? - so there's no question of weighing it down. I could try holding it up I guess. It's funny, the instructions insist it must be 'latched', but all you can do with it is lift it up and let it drop down again. In any case we've had no problems before this week.

 

We don't have a back boiler so that's one possibility ruled out, at least!

 

Why not, it's worth a try - stick some chewing gum under it. After all, per posts 8 & 9, if it's not up you can expect armageddon at the very least, possibly something more serious!

 

Mine can't be latched either, left to its own devices it will stay up.

 

One thought, could it be as simple as a partial vacuum in the fuel tank? Has the breather hole (or whatever replaces it) become blocked?

[LEO]

Hi, as a matter of interest, which regulator do you have.the old style one or a now Toby unit?.

[eid]

On 18/02/2019 at 22:33, magictime said:

Been faffing around with the stove all day today. It used up all the fuel in its (separate) tank yesterday, and today we refilled the tank only to find no diesel coming through when we turned it on at the regulator. So we went through the rigmarole of cleaning the filter, cleaned out the soot in the bottom of the burner while we were at it, didn't seem to be getting anywhere - then came back to it an hour or two later to find what looks to me like a pretty good flow of diesel again. Hard to say if it's as much as 'normal', as it looks quite different from what I've been used to with all the soot sitting in the bottom - but a gradual spreading 'stain' building up over a few minutes to a film (not really a pool) of diesel. So I light it using my usual method - diesel off, firelighter in, light and wait a few minutes, diesel back on low. I'm on my fifth attempt at this point I think, having tried variations like putting in a bit more or a bit less diesel, and every time all has looked fine for about 15 minutes before the cage visibly cools and I'm left with just a sort of 'pilot light' emerging from the diesel outlet itself. It seems like a lack of diesel, I guess, except that every time I start over, I think the flow looks fine. Any ideas?

 

 

Have you used the clearance rod, and remembered to pull it back out, as below?

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by eid

[eid]

10 hours ago, magictime said:

Yeah, I think the instructions call it the 'control lever'? Anyway ours sits in the 'down' position by default - maybe it shouldn't? - so there's no question of weighing it down. I could try holding it up I guess. It's funny, the instructions insist it must be 'latched', but all you can do with it is lift it up and let it drop down again. In any case we've had no problems before this week.

 

The lever should be in the down position. It should not however "drop down again" after being pushed up. At least, not very far. It sounds like it isn't down far enough. You should be able to easily hear it "latch" as it's mechanism engages. There would be some resistance to being pushed up when it's properly latched too.

If this isn't happening then something inside your regulator is causing the safety mechanism to activate, stopping it from latching.

You could test this by holding it down manually while you light it but I wouldn't recommend weighing it down; it's there for a reason.

 

[koukouvagia]

OK so what has been established?

- I seems that the pipe work and burner pot have been cleaned

- I'm not sure that the thermocouple has been eliminated - is there one, in fact?

- You say that the cut-off lever sits naturally in the down position.  This is correct.  (If it won't latch, it means that there is too much diesel in the regulator).

- Can you confirm the regulator is like the first one of Leo's pictures?

 

Other tests

What happens if you leave the fuel on for say five minutes without lighting? The fuel should pool in the bottom of the burner pot and you'll have to mop it out, but at least you will verify that fuel is flowing through the regulator.

Is the fuel in the regulator up to the correct level (this is marked on the outside of the case).  What happens if you depress the float slightly?

 

If there's only a trickle coming into the burner pot then it's time to clean out the regulator, paying particular attention to the metering stem.  Be careful not to damage the fine slot on the metering stem.

 

Check that the regulator knob is actually lifting the metering stem.  I have known this to have become lose so that the metering stem remains in the off (down) position.  It appears to the user that the flow is being turned up, but in fact, nothing is happening.

 

I'm presuming that no one has fiddled with the high and low fire adjustments.  Also has the trim of the boat altered?  This can affect the flow of diesel.

 

My bet is still on a dirty regulator.