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Dunkirk Little Ships, Elf & Safety


Flyboy

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A bit sensationalist (but then it is the Mail)

 

I am not at all surprised that some of the little ships are not compliant with modern MCA regulations, indeed I'd be surprised if any of the originals comply I am rather more surprised that we didn't suffer heavy losses in the operation given that these boats were known at the time to be pushing the limits in a time of extreme need. Nevertheless the fact that we got away with it then isn't a good reason to risk lives now. 

 

The worst that the MCA will do is stop them operating commercial short sea cruises, in effect in category D waters, the MCA arent going to say these boats can't float in harbour, or be used as private boats, or be used inland on category A or B waters where the wave height is considerably less. The MCA don't tell anyone to scrap anything...

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15 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

The worst that the MCA will do is stop them operating commercial short sea cruises, in effect in category D waters, the MCA arent going to say these boats can't float in harbour, or be used as private boats, or be used inland on category A or B waters where the wave height is considerably less. The MCA don't tell anyone to scrap anything...

It gets very confusing when Inland waterways are defined as category A (by one authority) but Category A is 'Open Ocean & waves above 4 metres' by much of the rest of the world and inland waterways are Category D

 

The MCA categories only relate to the INLAND Waterways - Can they can stop the 'Little Ships' taking passengers to Sea.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/inland-waterways-and-categorisation-of-waters

 

This guide explains what inland waters are, how they are categorised, how to apply for categorisation of waters, safety requirements for vessels operating on inland waters, and best practice to adopt. It is aimed at owners, operators and Masters of vessels operating in all inland waters categories.

Inland waters and how they are categorised

‘Inland waters’ includes any area of water not categorised as ‘sea’ - eg canals, tidal and non-tidal rivers, lakes, and some estuarial waters (an arm of sea that extends inland to meet the mouth of a river).

Inland waters are classified as one of four categories:

  • Category A - narrow rivers and canals where the depth of water is generally less than 1.5 metres
  • Category B - wider rivers and canals where the depth of water is generally 1.5 metres or more and where the significant wave height could not be expected to exceed 0.6 metres at any time
  • Category C - tidal rivers, estuaries and large, deep lakes and lochs where the significant wave height could not be expected to exceed 1.2 metres at any time
  • Category D - tidal rivers and estuaries where the significant wave height could not be expected to exceed 2 metres at any time

The 'other' method of categorisation is :

 

Design Category A ~ 'OCEAN'

Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed winds of Beaufort F8 and significant wave heights of 4m and above, and for which vessels must be largely self-sufficient.

 

Design Category B ~ 'OFFSHORE'

Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including winds of wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including 4m may be experienced.

 

Design Category C ~ 'INSHORE'

Designed for sailing in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to and wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including 2m may be experienced.

 

Design Category D ~ 'SHELTERED WATERS'

Designed for sailing on small lakes, rivers and canals where conditions up to and wind F4 and significant wave heights up to, and including 0.5m may be experienced.

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It gets very confusing when Inland waterways are defined as category A (by one authority) but Category A is 'Open Ocean & waves above 4 metres' by much of the rest of the world and inland waterways are Category D

 

The MCA categories only relate to the INLAND Waterways - Can they can stop the 'Little Ships' taking passengers to Sea.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/inland-waterways-and-categorisation-of-waters

 

Thanks Alan, yes in remembering to get the category the right way round I'd forgotten than MCA categories don't even get beyond partially smooth waters

 

The do have regulations for operating a commercial boat beyond the partially smooth waters limit (but inside UK waters) so yes thay can stop a Dunkirk Little Ship taking fare oaying passengers to sea, although not if it's leaving Dunkirk...

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2 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Thanks Alan, yes in remembering to get the category the right way round I'd forgotten than MCA categories don't even get beyond partially smooth waters

 

The do have regulations for operating a commercial boat beyond the partially smooth waters limit (but inside UK waters) so yes thay can stop a Dunkirk Little Ship taking fare oaying passengers to sea, although not if it's leaving Dunkirk...

 

Seeing as you cannot have a greeny - have one of these.

 

 

It must be quite exciting for someone buying a NB built to RCD requirements and rated a category D, and then finding that the MCA get a bit arsey when used in Category D Estuaries with 2 mt + wave heights.

 

Snot Greeny.jpg

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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3 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

I am rather more surprised that we didn't suffer heavy losses in the operation given that these boats were known at the time to be pushing the limits...

I suspect we did. For example we (the British) designed floating tanks that were designed to "swim" ashore from landing craft kept afloat by a collapsible canvas screen with about two inches of freeboard. The inevitable losses were accepted as "acceptable" in conflict

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4 hours ago, 1st ade said:

I suspect we did. For example we (the British) designed floating tanks that were designed to "swim" ashore from landing craft kept afloat by a collapsible canvas screen with about two inches of freeboard. The inevitable losses were accepted as "acceptable" in conflict

I don't think the losses from them sinking were simply accepted as inevitable. The weather was unexpectedly poor and the crews had no concept that, by using a fixed point on land as their headmark whilst the elements were pushing them up the coast from it, they we're attempting to run increasingly parallel to the shore in a vessel particularly unsuited to cope with a beam sea.  I'm not saying that these swimming tanks were a robust design, far from it, but I'm not sure it's fair to say they were a folly that flagrantly and willfully disregarded their crew's safety. 

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Hmmm, sometimes the Daily Mail just likes to find stories to outrage people ( I know, its hard to believe but its true) I guess this really only applies to boats that go to sea with fare paying passengers. Can't be that many of them. Still, I hope they can find a way to work around this.

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15 hours ago, 1st ade said:

I suspect we did. For example we (the British) designed floating tanks that were designed to "swim" ashore from landing craft kept afloat by a collapsible canvas screen with about two inches of freeboard. The inevitable losses were accepted as "acceptable" in conflict

With regard to the little ships, these boats were of varying degrees of seaworthiness (some were actually rather bigger ships) but many were grossly overloaded, albeit understandably. I recall a statement from one owner (I can't remember the source) that "she sleeps 8 but we'll get more than that on" and he came back with somewhere round 100 men. In the circumstances it wouldn't have been that surprising if we'd lost over half the fleet - we didn't

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