Jump to content

The Diesel Engine in narrowboats


Heartland

Featured Posts

1 hour ago, Heartland said:

Regarding Kromhout, though an Amsterdam manufacturer, there were engines built under licence by British builders

<snip>

 

The company was Perman & Co of London, started building boats 1904, associated with kromhout 1907

 

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Perman_and_Co

 

British made 3cyl

 

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im1933EnV156-p275.jpg

 

springy

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Replacing engines in British Transport Waterways times is another topic worthy of discussion, I suppose, The reasons for this being done must be a historical factor to consider. That original engines became worn out may be proof of extensive use, or it could be through lacking maintenance ( although I under stand the BTW were keen to maintain their craft). Having smaller engines may have been a factor. The 9 HP bolinder, for example, may have been considered a reason for replacement.

 

Also with the hiring out of craft to firms like Willow Wren, the maintenance of craft might had lain with BTW/BW or was it with the hirer?

 

Lamprey was originally fitted with a 9HP Bolinder engine, I understand, it is seen on the Shropshire Union near Gnosall.

 

 

  

323081.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/02/2019 at 16:10, David Schweizer said:

If you have an interest in engines used in Narrowboats, may I suggest that you try and precure a copy of this book by Kevin Whittle

 

image.png.6f847d221733f7f0aad37cce883233bf.png

 

I am  not sure whether copies are still available but you could try contacting  Kevin. Last known address :- 1 Sytch Lane, Waters Upton, Shropshire, TF6 6NT.   Last known email address :- engines@vintagemarine.co.uk

 

 

 

 

You've got the same edition as I have: hardback, lim. ed. of 250, signed. That's ;long gone; Mr. Whittle has updated it, brightened it up and split it into two comb-bound volumes which will set the buyer back some £80 for the pair.

He's moved to Wales now. I didn't make a note of the address but a search for Kevin Whittle Engines, or similar, should find him on the internet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Athy said:

You've got the same edition as I have: hardback, lim. ed. of 250, signed. That's ;long gone; Mr. Whittle has updated it, brightened it up and split it into two comb-bound volumes which will set the buyer back some £80 for the pair.

He's moved to Wales now. I didn't make a note of the address but a search for Kevin Whittle Engines, or similar, should find him on the internet.

That is very intersting, from recollection, the first edition was in two paperback volumes, quickly followed by the combined hard bound volume.

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Heartland said:

Also with the hiring out of craft to firms like Willow Wren, the maintenance of craft might had lain with BTW/BW or was it with the hirer?

I don't think so - once under WWCTS control, I doubt BW had any involvement, other than ultimately repossessing boats that had been thrashed to death.

My assumption would be that all, (or maybe "nearly all"?), the ex GUCCCo motors leaed to WWCTS had acquired Petters in active service with BW, generally at least several years previously.  All the second batch of motors repossessed from WWCTS, and ultimately dumped on the Wendover arm had PD2s, although these had all been "asset stripped" by that stage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is definitely an useful comment. Yet, to clarify, Willow Wren had two fleets, again if I understand correctly.  One in the North West, that ceased in 1967, and one in the South East, somewhat larger in number with some boats carrying on to serve the Croxley Paper Mill until 1970. The Wendover Arm dump is stated to be 1967, would it be fair to state asset stripping was done to keep the few working craft in service.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, David Schweizer said:

That is very intersting, from recollection, the first edition was in two paperback volumes, quickly followed by the combined hard bound volume.

 

 

In which case I am wrong: the dark green hardback edition was the first of which I was aware. I bought mine in 2001. Thanks for the correct information.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Heartland said:

That is definitely an useful comment. Yet, to clarify, Willow Wren had two fleets, again if I understand correctly.  One in the North West, that ceased in 1967, and one in the South East, somewhat larger in number with some boats carrying on to serve the Croxley Paper Mill until 1970. The Wendover Arm dump is stated to be 1967, would it be fair to state asset stripping was done to keep the few working craft in service.

There were two different batches of boats dumped on the Wendover Arm.  Paul H has in the past posted threads that detailed the boats involved and the dates.  I was familiar with the second batch.  My assumption is that they largely got there under their own power, and because of the unsecured location were mostly stripped of anything removable once there.

 

My brother Mike recounts how once took Bilster down there when he owned it, long after all the boats were gone.  A bit of fishing located a Large Woolwich rudder in much better shape that the one he had.  It is surmised that people had dropped them out to facilitate theft of the blades, which obviously fetched a fair amount as scrap.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

My assumption would be that all, (or maybe "nearly all"?), the ex GUCCCo motors leaed to WWCTS had acquired Petters in active service with BW, generally at least several years previously.  All the second batch of motors repossessed from WWCTS, and ultimately dumped on the Wendover arm had PD2s, although these had all been "asset stripped" by that stage.

 

Belfast, when abandoned in the Wendover arm in 1970, had the engine room roof removed and I am told there was a PD2 sitting in the hold. When first put back into use by the Dacorum Narrow Boat Project, Belfast again had a PD2 (replaced by the current Lister ST3 in 1979). But I don't know whether it was the engine from the hold put back into service.

 

8 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

There were two different batches of boats dumped on the Wendover Arm.  Paul H has in the past posted threads that detailed the boats involved and the dates.  I was familiar with the second batch.  My assumption is that they largely got there under their own power, and because of the unsecured location were mostly stripped of anything removable once there.

 

My brother Mike recounts how once took Bilster down there when he owned it, long after all the boats were gone.  A bit of fishing located a Large Woolwich rudder in much better shape that the one he had.  It is surmised that people had dropped them out to facilitate theft of the blades, which obviously fetched a fair amount as scrap.

 

It could be Belfast's rudder! Both the rudder and swan neck curently fitted are rather poor imitations of the real thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

Belfast, when abandoned in the Wendover arm in 1970, had the engine room roof removed and I am told there was a PD2 sitting in the hold. When first put back into use by the Dacorum Narrow Boat Project, Belfast again had a PD2 (replaced by the current Lister ST3 in 1979). But I don't know whether it was the engine from the hold put back into service.

I'm sure when we looked at it that although the engine room roof was off, it actually had an engine (or most of it) in the right place.

I don't recall one in the hold!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I'm sure when we looked at it that although the engine room roof was off, it actually had an engine (or most of it) in the right place.

I don't recall one in the hold!

 

It was reported to me by Pete Harrison that two "enthusiast observations" in April and July 1970 described the boat as "engine room stripped" and "badly looted", and on both occasions a PD2 in the hold was noted.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Athy said:

In which case I am wrong: the dark green hardback edition was the first of which I was aware. I bought mine in 2001. Thanks for the correct information.

Does yours actually say First edition 2001 at the front? I have always been under the impression that the combined Green hardback edition was a new edition first published in 2002, which is what is printed in my copy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

Does yours actually say First edition 2001 at the front? I have always been under the impression that the combined Green hardback edition was a new edition first published in 2002, which is what is printed in my copy.

I'll check tomorrow.

EDIT: I checked. I actually bought my copy in April 2002, and it is no. 239 of 250. In the front it says (copyright) K.D. Whittle 2001. The foreword doesn't appear to mention a previous edition. So I thought that mine was one of the last copies of the first edition, but of course there may well have been a previous one of which I'm unaware.

Edited by Athy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/02/2019 at 15:05, X Alan W said:

The Seffle from my ex boat "Lily" is in Jem Bates boa "Severn" Mr owl had a similar motor up to fitting his Scottish lump dont know what other boats if any have the 25HP gearbox model there are several 9HP Seffle's both in bots& on the bank for sale Norbury had a 9for sale

We still have the Seffle sitting in our workshop waiting for a nice boat for it to go in or someone to buy it!

 

I understand that these smaller engines were imported along with the 25hp versions by Willow Wren in about 1962. They are rated at 7/8hp at 1000rpm.

 

They are lovely little engines and benefit from the reliability of a reversing gearbox. I believe that they had several options from new for starting. Our one has a glow plug but some are blow lamp or even firework start. Obviously with a retractable pin in the flywheel. They have a rotary governor, water pump and lubricator and grease fed main bearings.

 

That's got me thinking. We best get it out and get it bopping - WATCH THIS SPACE!


Below are some photographs from several years ago and I appreciate they aren't very good, but it gives you the general idea.

seffle 001.jpg

seffle 003.jpg

seffle 004.jpg

seffle 005.jpg

seffle 002.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Henry’s 20hp Bolinder is said to have ended up in my old boat Marquis when operating on the BCN as the tug Sally.  The engine was later restored by Malcom Braine and is I believe in the engine house at Ellesmere Port.

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

The Shropshire Union experimented with semi diesels at different times, three boats have been identified

 

Water Lily 1910

Adonis 1911

Hoogley 1920

 

But there was also a trial of  Gardner engine fitted to an unspecified narrowboat, which is mentioned in a report by the Midland Canal Control Committee in January 1918, which probably was not any of the above.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The 1920 date was quoted in Narrowboat, but it now seems according to Canal Control Committee records that the Hoogley was the boat converted in January 1918 and it subsequently took place in a trial from Chester to Wolverhampton. The engine was subsequently removed and the Hoogley was one of the craft transferred to the Anderton Company and evidently remained a butty with them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

This has been all very useful details for understanding engines in motor boats, but such engines could be changed as design was improved.

 

Bolinders were changed in later years and in BW days there was a program to re-engine boats. I gather that is when some Lister engines came to be fitted to carriers narrow boats- perhaps somebody can confirm.

 

This is a picture of the Bolinder engine in Peacock ( Weaver collection). This is BM type, I understand, which replaced the original water injection E type in January 1934. 

46740.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Heartland said:

This has been all very useful details for understanding engines in motor boats, but such engines could be changed as design was improved.

 

Bolinders were changed in later years and in BW days there was a program to re-engine boats. I gather that is when some Lister engines came to be fitted to carriers narrow boats- perhaps somebody can confirm.

 

This is a picture of the Bolinder engine in Peacock ( Weaver collection). This is BM type, I understand, which replaced the original water injection E type in January 1934. 

'British Waterways' replaced the Bolinder engines in their exF.M.C. Ltd. motors with a combination of Lister, Parsons, Petter, and Gardner engines, and a few kept their Bolinder.

 

As discussed on this Forum previously John Hemelryk replaced the Bolinder BM in PEACOCK with another of the same type some time between 1961 and 1973, with the current engine having come out of BRIAR (Willow Wren's MOORHEN).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, pete harrison said:

'British Waterways' replaced the Bolinder engines in their exF.M.C. Ltd. motors with a combination of Lister, Parsons, Petter, and Gardner engines, and a few kept their Bolinder.

 

As discussed on this Forum previously John Hemelryk replaced the Bolinder BM in PEACOCK with another of the same type some time between 1961 and 1973, with the current engine having come out of BRIAR (Willow Wren's MOORHEN).

and as also discussed an even you staiting there is more info required as the current bolinder number on the engine and (as found on flywheel) has her 1930s engine number

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For Briar I understand the BM engine supplied to that craft was 1935. So Peacock has a 1935 BM engine. I suppose.

 

Just looking at the Wikkipedia notes, Peacock has a 15HP PETROL engine . OH DEAR Wikki!

Edited by Heartland
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, billybobbooth said:

and as also discussed an even you staiting there is more info required as the current bolinder number on the engine and (as found on flywheel) has her 1930s engine number

Quite, as is always the case - but my information did come from John Hemelryk :captain:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 22:13, billybobbooth said:

and as also discussed an even you staiting there is more info required as the current bolinder number on the engine and (as found on flywheel) has her 1930s engine number

 

22 hours ago, billybobbooth said:

and mine direct off the engine itself

We have discussed this at length before and our opinions differed then just as they do now. Rightly or wrongly I will continue to quote John Hemelryk and I am sure you will continue to promote the number on a flywheel. I am quite sure that few people really care and just enjoy PEACOCK for what it is :captain:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.