Vacation: Kid's Safety Question

[Iain_S]

6 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

Then I don't consider them to be proper lifejackets, and I wouldn't recommend boaters use them.

They are lifejackets, and are the best ones to use in certain circumstances, for example, in an aircraft. A lifejacket which auto inflates, and prevents you getting out of a confined space will not save a life.

 

 ... which reminds me of a story told by a yachtie: he was single handed in the River Forth, and stuck his head and most of his body into the chain locker, to unfankle his anchor chain. His auto lifejacket inflated, leaving him stuck, and unable to reach the manual inflation valve to deflate the jacket. "Fortunately, the life jacket was defective " and he was able to free himself after about 20 minutes while sailing on autohelm. Only time I've ever heard the quoted bit said!!  

[doratheexplorer]

17 hours ago, Iain_S said:

They are lifejackets, and are the best ones to use in certain circumstances, for example, in an aircraft. A lifejacket which auto inflates, and prevents you getting out of a confined space will not save a life.

 

 ... which reminds me of a story told by a yachtie: he was single handed in the River Forth, and stuck his head and most of his body into the chain locker, to unfankle his anchor chain. His auto lifejacket inflated, leaving him stuck, and unable to reach the manual inflation valve to deflate the jacket. "Fortunately, the life jacket was defective " and he was able to free himself after about 20 minutes while sailing on autohelm. Only time I've ever heard the quoted bit said!!  

Horses for courses.  Manually inflating jackets are largely pointless on canals.  Self-inflating or good old fashioned foam ones are much more useful.  The risk of falling into a lock and hitting your head is real. 

[Justin Smith]

On ‎10‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 09:44, BruceinSanity said:

This is much our experience and we adopted a very similar policy. We saw no need to wear lifers or buoyancy ourselves, the kids accepted that different rules applied to adults in this as in so many other things. This did lead to the incident I’ve reported before on here – on one occasion, holidaying on the BCN, we were accosted by a guy in the Bull Ring with the observation “eh, the fountains aren’t that deep here, wack” and we realised the kids were still wearing their bright orange bouyancy...

 

Surely it`s not so much the age but the swimming proficiency /confidence in the water ?

On the one hand I know adults who can`t swim, on the other our lad could swim 25m (and easily retrieve and object from 6ft deep) before his 3rd birthday. He`s now 6 and a stronger swimmer / more confident in the water than most adults.

The only exception is around locks which are filling and (especially) emptying, doesn`t that increase the chances of someone (adult or child) being sucked under ? That said, we don`t wear life jackets round locks and our lad is probably a stronger swimmer / more confident in the water than his mum.

 

Warning : Proud Parent Alert : This is our lad just before his 4th birthday diving to 8ft

Edited April 21, 2019 by Justin Smith

[mrsmelly]

On 10/02/2019 at 16:22, CM81 said:

Wow! Thanks so much for the help.

 

We are looking at the Avon ring because we haven’t been to those parts of the U.K. Our plan is to book the boat from Rugby and do the ring clockwise for three weeks. We know the route includes the river, but is it more dangerous than the Four Counties ring? We want to do the Shakespeare sites, and the Warwick Castle, which I read you can detour to off the Avon ring. There are other things we want to do, but if the Four Counties ring is much safer, we could do those things by car I guess.

 

She is super excited about the trip and we know she will be really into steering the boat and operating the locks (she will be supervised at all times). As we will be newbies it sounds like the best way is to have her wear her life jacket at all times she is outside the boat cabin, and when we are walking at the sides of the water, and operating the locks.

 

When docking the boat, do you allow your kids to walk along the side of the boat? We’ve seen pics of people doing it when docking, but it looks kind of dangerous and not something I would be comfortable with her doing.  Do you have to be on the sides to dock the boat properly? We don’t want to exclude her from being involved, but even with a life jacket on, I am worried that walking on the sides of the boat could be pretty unsafe.

 

Thanks so much. C.

When we moved aboard as full time liveaboards my two youngest were aged 5 and 10. There is no one way of bringing kids up and we all do things differently. My kids have never been allowed on the gunwhales ( its never necessary anyway ) I only let them lie on the roof when moored and on canal not river. I dont go on the roof or the gunwhales as I have staff to do the locks. I do when single handing very occasionaly use the roof but not gunwhales. I didnt let my kids anywhere near a windlass until mid teens, I saw what happened at a lock in Bath to an approx 8 year old whos parents had allowed one to use a windlass at face height who were sharing the lock with us. Luckily I know first aid and the ambulance came quickly. Be safe.

[Robster]

As part of my job I am a swift water rescue technician - which means I jump into fast moving water to rescue people - usually people who have fallen out of canoes or attempted suicide. For that, I wear an enormous amount of PPE, and my bouyancy aid is like this:

 

 

Now, that is total overkill for the canals and rivers - because you only want something that will save you in the event of an immersion - at work I am almost certainly going in the water, often only a couple of degrees above freezing, so I have to adopt a slightly different approach.

 

If I'm bimbling about near the edge of water (a guide is 3 meters, but that's only a guide - it could be 20 meters if it's 20 meters of steep sloping bank), and don't want the bulk of a full bouyancy aid I'll wear an auto inflating crew saver:

 

 

These are light weight, and as a previous poster said, you don't notice you're wearing it after a while. Remember to do the crotch straps up though - their crucially important.

 

If someone takes a dip, there are two immediate things that happen - one, they panic a bit normally, and two, they will almost certainly suffer a cold water shock - Cold water shock response is perhaps the most common cause of death from immersion in very cold water, such as by falling through thin ice. The immediate shock of the cold causes involuntary inhalation, which if underwater can result in drowning. The cold water can also cause heart attack due to vasoconstriction; the heart has to work harder to pump the same volume of blood throughout the body. For people with existing cardiovascular disease, the additional workload can result in cardiac arrest. Inhalation of water (and thus drowning) may result from hyperventilation. Some people are much better able to survive swimming in very cold water due to body or mental conditioning.

So - strong swimmer or not, concious or not, you really want to keep your mouth and nose above the surface if there's a chance of taking a bath in cold water. The response is totally involuntary.

I spend a lot of time around water both for leisure and work, and even when I'm fishing, or perched at the stern of a narrowboat, I pop a Crewsaver on.

Canals, and narrow boating, IMHO is very safe and low risk. Taking a dip may even be seen as a rite of passage (I've done it!). Being prepared for that soaking is the important thing.

I am sure the OP will have an amazing time on the Avon ring, and a few sensible precautions will enhance that. There's a few things to do if someone falls in (engine in neutral, lock paddles shut etc..), but the boat yard willl tell you all of that, and should also provide life jackets (in the last few years of hiring, we have been provided with auto inflating Crewsavers).

Have fun, enjoy yourself, and like travelling in a car wearing a seat belt, be safe.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by Robster

[Boater Sam]

Not engine into neutral but OFF altogether.

No body can swim properly in very turbulent water, like in a filling lock. I've seen dogs try and fail.

[Robster]

4 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Not engine into neutral but OFF altogether.

No body can swim properly in very turbulent water, like in a filling lock. I've seen dogs try and fail.

Yeah - I actually meant that, but typed otherwise!

 

I've swam in 14 CuMets of water (that's fourteen tonnes of water passing you every second) - and it was fun (I was training, it really was fun). But it's about technique - going with the water and using it to your advantage, rather than brute force and trying to swim against it...you go feet first, on your back, and use your entire body like a rudder to get you to where you want to be, rolling onto your front at the last minute to do an agressive swim.

 

The turbulance in a lock is a little different though, and far more unpredictable than a follwing river. The Swift Water Rescue manual states "Rescuers should be aware of the additional hazards present around a lock such as unusual water currents which exist when the lock is opened", and goes on to say "When the sluice gate is released, a rush of water will create a large amount of turbulance downstream of the gate, which may be inside of the lock if the upper gate is opened"

 

Anyway - I went canaling last week, and I lived to tell the tale

[Flyboy]

On 09/02/2019 at 19:50, CM81 said:

We are a family of four planning our vacation for the summer and we are going to be booking a narrowboat for three weeks. We are looking mostly at the Avon ring and we will be newbies to the boat and the area. Our daughter (12) is super excited for the trip but she isn’t a strong swimmer and I’m also worried about her going to operate the locks. Could anyone here please share your routines/advice/rules/tips for kid’s safety on your boats? Thanks so much. C.

Have a look at the Canal & River Trust Handbook, plenty of tips in there.    https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/141.pdf

[howardang]

4 hours ago, Flyboy said:

Have a look at the Canal & River Trust Handbook, plenty of tips in there.    https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/141.pdf

Good advice for anyone who is a beginner on the inland waterways. The link you supply directs you to the latest edition of the Boaters Handbook which was only issued aroung 3 weeks ago and there is also an accompanying video. Many hire companies have a copy of the handbook on board their boats.

 

Have a great time.

 

Howard

[Sea Dog]

7 hours ago, howardang said:

Many hire companies have a copy of the handbook on board their boats.

Always handy to have something to read after you get home from holiday!

 

[john6767]

Just had a look at the new handbook and video and I think they are both excellent and contain a lot of very good information.  Well worth taking a look.

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/safeboating

 

 

[Justin Smith]

On ‎21‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 11:01, Justin Smith said:

Surely it`s not so much the age but the swimming proficiency /confidence in the water ?

On the one hand I know adults who can`t swim, on the other our lad could swim 25m (and easily retrieve and object from 6ft deep) before his 3rd birthday. He`s now 6 and a stronger swimmer / more confident in the water than most adults.

The only exception is around locks which are filling and (especially) emptying, doesn`t that increase the chances of someone (adult or child) being sucked under ? That said, we don`t wear life jackets round locks and our lad is probably a stronger swimmer / more confident in the water than his mum.

 

Warning : Proud Parent Alert : This is our lad just before his 4th birthday diving to 8ft

Our 6 year old fell in (on the Oxford canal) last week, he just swam to the shore no problem. I was never concerned about him drowning (he`s more confident in the water than most adults) but we were worried about the effect the water might have on him if he swallowed some, which he probably did. So far (4 days later) no ill effects though.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Justin Smith said:

Our 6 year old fell in (on the Oxford canal) last week, he just swam to the shore no problem. I was never concerned about him drowning (he`s more confident in the water than most adults) but we were worried about the effect the water might have on him if he swallowed some, which he probably did. So far (4 days later) no ill effects though.

 

The effects of canal water can take some time to show.

 

Any signs of flu luke symptoms could be Weils Disease, take him straight to the doctor, saying he fell in a canal. Untreated it is serious.

 

The other disease takes even longer, and is evidenced by him wanting to buy and live on a boat. This is incurable and is called canalcoholism. ?

Edited June 3, 2019 by cuthound
Spillung

[Justin Smith]

28 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

The effects of canal water can take some time to show.

 

Any signs of flu luke symptoms could be Weils Disease, take him straight to the doctor, saying he fell in a canal. Untreated it is serious.

 

The other disease takes even longer, and is evidenced by him wanting to buy and live on a boat. This is incurable and is called canalcoholism. ?

 

Thanks for that.

 

I take it you mean take him straight to a doctor if he develops flulike symptoms ?

When you say the symptoms can take some time to show up how long are we talking ?

Would the absence of flu like symptoms mean Weils disease is defn not present ?

 

[cuthound]

9 minutes ago, Justin Smith said:

 

Thanks for that.

 

I take it you mean take him straight to a doctor if he develops flulike symptoms ?

When you say the symptoms can take some time to show up how long are we talking ?

Would the absence of flu like symptoms mean Weils disease is defn not present ?

 

 

Yes, take him to the doctor straight away.

 

What are the symptoms of Weil’s disease?

The symptoms of leptospirosis usually appear within 5 to 14 days after you become infected by Leptospira bacteria, reports the New York State Department of Health. But symptoms can develop anywhere from 2 to 30 days after infection, with an average of 10 days after initial exposure.

 

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/leptospirosis/

 

 

[Justin Smith]

32 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Yes, take him to the doctor straight away.

 

What are the symptoms of Weil’s disease?

The symptoms of leptospirosis usually appear within 5 to 14 days after you become infected by Leptospira bacteria, reports the New York State Department of Health. But symptoms can develop anywhere from 2 to 30 days after infection, with an average of 10 days after initial exposure.

 

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/leptospirosis/

 

 

Sorry CH, just to confirm, take him to the doctor straightaway if he shows any symptoms ?

[cuthound]

13 minutes ago, Justin Smith said:

Sorry CH, just to confirm, take him to the doctor straightaway if he shows any symptoms ?

 

14 minutes ago, Justin Smith said:

Sorry CH, just to confirm, take him to the doctor straightaway if he shows any symptoms ?

 

Yes, if he shows any flu like symptoms within 30 days of his immersion, take him straight to a doctor and ask for him to be tested for Weils Disease.

[Justin Smith]

18 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

 

Yes, if he shows any flu like symptoms within 30 days of his immersion, take him straight to a doctor and ask for him to be tested for Weils Disease.

Will of that if any symptoms appear, as of the moment he`s OK.

Actually, it`s not certain he swallowed any water, he spends so much time swimming / diving it`d probably be instinctive for him to not swallow any water. That said, how much water would it take to cause a problem ? ! ?

[IanD]

Just to put this into perspective, there are typically about 40 cases of Weil's disease in the UK each year and about 2 deaths, which is about the same number as pedestrians who are killed by collision with a bicycle and about half the number of people who die due to being bitten by a dog or being stung by bees/wasps/hornets.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/oct/28/mortality-statistics-causes-death-england-wales-2010

 

Given the number of people who fall into the canals every year, I'd say the risk of catching Weil's disease was very small -- but if people are worriers, by all means take someone to the doctor if they have flu-like symptoms some time after falling in. It's 99% likely that they have flu, but you wouldn't want to be the 1%...

[Justin Smith]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

Just to put this into perspective, there are typically about 40 cases of Weil's disease in the UK each year and about 2 deaths, which is about the same number as pedestrians who are killed by collision with a bicycle and about half the number of people who die due to being bitten by a dog or being stung by bees/wasps/hornets.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/oct/28/mortality-statistics-causes-death-england-wales-2010

 

Given the number of people who fall into the canals every year, I'd say the risk of catching Weil's disease was very small -- but if people are worriers, by all means take someone to the doctor if they have flu-like symptoms some time after falling in. It's 99% likely that they have flu, but you wouldn't want to be the 1%...

Thanks for that. We will take him to the GP`s if he exhibits flu like symptoms in the next few weeks, and not bother if he doesn`t.

[cuthound]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

Just to put this into perspective, there are typically about 40 cases of Weil's disease in the UK each year and about 2 deaths, which is about the same number as pedestrians who are killed by collision with a bicycle and about half the number of people who die due to being bitten by a dog or being stung by bees/wasps/hornets.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/oct/28/mortality-statistics-causes-death-england-wales-2010

 

Given the number of people who fall into the canals every year, I'd say the risk of catching Weil's disease was very small -- but if people are worriers, by all means take someone to the doctor if they have flu-like symptoms some time after falling in. It's 99% likely that they have flu, but you wouldn't want to be the 1%...

 

Indeed, and most of these who do catch Weils Disease get it by infected water entering through an existing cut or graze to the skin.

Edited June 3, 2019 by cuthound
Spillung