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Diesel Vs Electric


Fly Navy

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

That's like all the articles in papers saying that if everyone in the country unplugged their phone chargers we'd save enough energy to power [xxx] houses. Which sounds like a big number, until you compare it to the [xx] million houses that we have, and realise it's maybe 0.001% of our home energy consumption. Nobody should be worrying about this, fix the big things first, then the medium sized things, by the time you've done all this you don't have a problem any more and can justifiably ignore the really small things.

 

So yes we need a pollution reduction from all *significant* sources including cars, taxis, trucks, planes, ships and trains, and as you say they all need looking at. What can be ignored -- unless you *really* enjoy pointless arguments -- is things that contribute probably 100x less pollution than the sources I mentioned earlier, which includes narrowboats and standby generators.

 

If you want some numbers, there are about 30 million cars and 30 thousand canal boats in the UK, so a thousand cars for every boat. Fuel used per year in the UK is about 12MT (million tonnes) for petrol cars, 12MT for diesel cars and taxis, 12MT for vans/trucks/coaches, 12MT for planes, 4MT for ships, 1MT for rail -- so it should be obvious where we have to look first out of this ~50MT total. A narrowboat used for fairly intensive cruising (3000 miles per year) uses about 1T of fuel (1000l) per year, but given how many boats are essentially stationary or hardly move at all I'd be very surprised if all the boats in the UK use 5000T of diesel between them -- which is 10000 times less than the big culprits mentioned above.

 

You could also say there's no excuse for having a smoky old engine chucking out clouds of stinky exhaust fumes, since this is a local pollution hazard to the nose if nothing else -- however it's unlikely to contribute anything to global warming or lung disease, unless you connect a mask to the exhaust with a length of hose...

Unless you live in the canal side house with a boat moored outside burning old treated fence panels, green wood and running a smoky engine for a few hours a day for battery charging.  

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On 04/02/2019 at 11:17, Fly Navy said:

 

The consequences being that every NB in the UK (32,000 are there?) will need to replace its engine for electgric presumably?).

No, 32,000 diesel engines, most of which aren't run very often, aren't worth worrying about. Unlike the millions of diesel road vehicles spewing out NOx and particulates every day, inland boats just aren't creating that much sir pollution in absolute terms.

Edited by blackrose
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22 hours ago, Stilllearning said:

The same argument should be remembered and used for every wind turbine. Add up all the CO2 created in planning the site, connecting the site to the grid, building each individual component and delivering to the site. Then assembling and erecting the turbine. How many years to repay the CO2?

Getting hold of a contract between the developer and the land owner is an instructive bit of reading too. If you can get hold of one, it’s not easy.

ETA and who actually wants to live next door to a turbine?

 

On diesel versus electric cars, again, take into account all the CO2 created in building a new electric car, and balance that against me driving my old Galaxy diesel till it dies of old age, and the costs to the environment are probably nearer to the same than most green proponents would like to admit.

If you take the energy that it took to build the Galaxy, and then the energy to produce the diesel, move the diesel, and serve it to you against the electric car, the galaxy would lose by a long way! Also thats before we start on servicing and repairs, which the electric car require very little

6 hours ago, blackrose said:

No, 32,000 diesel engines, most of which aren't run very often, aren't worth worrying about. Unlike the millions of diesel road vehicles spewing out NOx and particulates every day, inland boats just aren't creating that much sir pollution in absolute terms.

It all adds up, and your old diesel with no emissions equipment is a real polluter! My electric motor powered by solar isnt

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20 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

There are also hundreds of thousands of diesel generators supporting hospitals, communications, data centres, the banking industry, then there are millions of diesels providing power for sea, road and road transport.

 

For most of these, electric or petrol e vines are simply not viable. I think once the Government realise this, then there will be a rapid about turn on demonising diesels. Also see my thread on diesels making a short-term comeback.

 

 

That much of a comeback that diesel car sales are still falling, and wait until the repair bills start for these "new" diesels, I have seen 2k for repairing add blue system on a beener!! How many years will it take to get that back...............never is the answer

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20 hours ago, Lily Rose said:

On the subject of meat... I'm not a vegetarian and, despite accepting that meat production is a major contributor to global warming (which worries me not for myself, having been lucky enough to have already had most of my life during what I believe has probably been the best time to be alive, at least in the developed world, but for my children and grandchildren), I have no plans to give up eating meat.

 

I am trying to cut down a bit though, particularly beef and lamb which are now a rare treat. Chicken and pork, whilst I have cut down a bit, concern me less. That is supported by the chart that appears if you use the calculator at the bottom of the BBC article below. It shows that lamb production generates more than twice as much greenhouse gases as pork and chicken while beef produces nearly four times as much. I can still continue going to   https://www.bing.com/search?pc=DOWI&form=AMZNS2&q=the+pig+place+oxfordshire  occasionally without feeling too guilty!

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46611132

 

Back to the subject of cars... I've been thinking about switching to an electric car for some time. Whilst electricity production still uses a high percentage of fossil fuel, albeit decreasing all the time, at least the pollution from it is not as bad for the many people living, working or schooling near busy roads as that produced by passing ICE vehicles. Also the majority of all-electric cars are charged at home overnight when the national grid is running well below capacity (hence Economy 7 etc) and the dirtiest fuels make up a smaller proportion of the total. Admittedly solar production is not contributing anything during that time but wind and hydro are.

 

In the last week or so I have been doing a lot of research on the subject with the intention of buying an all electric car later this year, possibly 2nd hand, more likely new. I have now decided to hold on for another 2 or 3 years. The main reason is that whilst I can easily afford to a new  EV they are just too expensive from me to justify to myself let alone to Mrs LR. I have ruled out the Renault Zoe (too small, too many hidden costs, too much French unreliability) whilst the other two on my shortlist (Nissan Leaf, VW e-Golf) are roughly double the price of the nearest ICE equivalent. I'll wait until the new VW ID is launched and then think about it again.

 

I also ruled out S/H as the supply/demand imbalance means they are also far too expensive. It appears EV depreciation over the last 12 months has been approximately zero!

 

For now I'm going to stick with my >13 year old diesel. I've had it from new, had no trouble with it (so far) and it is still low mileage. If it fails me in the next 2 or 3 years I may take the plunge into EVs or I may buy a cheap petrol car to ride me over for a year or two until, hopefully, EV prices start to come down, possibly driven by VW 's forthcoming major expansion of EV production from their new factory (factories?) dedicated to high-volume production of the first ID model at (they say) a similar price level as the Golf.

 

 

Loads of secondhand leafs coming onto the market  after 3 years on contract at very good prices choose a 30kw model. Have a look at speak ev forum lots of info on it

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5 minutes ago, peterboat said:

That much of a comeback that diesel car sales are still falling, and wait until the repair bills start for these "new" diesels, I have seen 2k for repairing add blue system on a beener!! How many years will it take to get that back...............never is the answer

 

To be fair, it probably costs an arm and a leg to get anything repaired on a Beemer.

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4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

That much of a comeback that diesel car sales are still falling, and wait until the repair bills start for these "new" diesels, I have seen 2k for repairing add blue system on a beener!! How many years will it take to get that back...............never is the answer

My EGR valve failed on my Mondeo(2005) - overnight in gun wash and a seeing to with an old toothbrush and it was ok again. A known recent Mondeo EGR fail on a 2016 car cost £600 plus labour - you can't fix them yourself.

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12 minutes ago, peterboat said:

If you take the energy that it took to build the Galaxy, and then the energy to produce the diesel, move the diesel, and serve it to you...……………...

The 'Big-Bang' was a long time before we started using diesel and how much energy did it take, and how was it provided ?

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15 minutes ago, peterboat said:

If you take the energy that it took to build the Galaxy, and then the energy to produce the diesel, move the diesel, and serve it to you against the electric car, the galaxy would lose by a long way! Also thats before we start on servicing and repairs, which the electric car require very little

 

 

Are you suggesting that the energy to build an electric car is any less than that for a diesel, or that disposal costs at end-of-life are lower? I suggest that both are rather higher for an electric, but what really matters here is service life. I doubt that a Leaf will still be on the road after 15 or 20 years, unless it has had a whole new battery pack.

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6 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

To be fair, it probably costs an arm and a leg to get anything repaired on a Beemer.

 

Indeed, against my advice a mate bought a secondhand 330. 9 months later it developed an oil leak. BMW dealer quoted £2500 To fix it, saying it was an e fine out job. He took it to a local garage, they fixed it for £500, and he then promptly sold it on to the next mug.

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1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Loads of secondhand leafs coming onto the market  after 3 years on contract at very good prices choose a 30kw model. Have a look at speak ev forum lots of info on it

I've spent lots of time on SpeakEV, and quite a bit on YouTube (Electric Vehicle Man and Fully Charged). Conclusion... I don't much like the look of the Leaf 30 (the 40 looks fine but still too new/expensive) and the range is a bit on the low side for my liking. Prices are ok except that they don't seem to have fallen during the last year as 2 year old models have turned into 3 year old models. Great if you've already got one, not so great if you're looking for one.

 

I will get an EV, it just (probably) won't be this year.

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11 minutes ago, peterboat said:

If you take the energy that it took to build the Galaxy, and then the energy to produce the diesel, move the diesel, and serve it to you against the electric car, the galaxy would lose by a long way! Also thats before we start on servicing and repairs, which the electric car require very little

It all adds up, and your old diesel with no emissions equipment is a real polluter! My electric motor powered by solar isnt

The old galaxy has been built and doesn’t need much servicing or repairs and does about 4K miles a year. To replace it with a new car (forgetting the ridiculous cost of any new car) involves huge resources and emissions just to make it, before it ever gets on the road. The charging needed for an electric car involves setting up a complete new network of charging points, and there is still CO2 being produced, just not at the car. The situation is more nuanced than it seems at first. The UK, being a small densely populated place is ideal for electric. Perhaps.

In France, a large country that is much less densely populated EVS are a much less obviously good choice.

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14 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

The old galaxy has been built and doesn’t need much servicing or repairs and does about 4K miles a year. To replace it with a new car (forgetting the ridiculous cost of any new car) involves huge resources and emissions just to make it, before it ever gets on the road. The charging needed for an electric car involves setting up a complete new network of charging points, and there is still CO2 being produced, just not at the car. The situation is more nuanced than it seems at first. The UK, being a small densely populated place is ideal for electric. Perhaps.

In France, a large country that is much less densely populated EVS are a much less obviously good choice.

I'f agree with much of that which is why I'm fine continuing with my 13 yo diesel C-Max for a while longer. Hopefully when I get an EV someone else will continue running my diesel for a bit longer to gain more benefit from the sunk (environmental) costs.

 

On networks (UK) the build is happening anyway so might as well use it. Most car journeys are under 20 miles apparently so most charging will be at home and overnight. Our marina now has a chargepoint as well!

 

Regards CO2, the percentage of UK energy is, I think, now north of 30%, maybe even 40%, and increasing. Bring nuclear into the equation (no idea what CO2 that produces) and it's over 50%.

 

EVs benefit from that, ICE vehicles don't.

 

Edited by Lily Rose
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3 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

The UK, being a small densely populated place is ideal for electric. Perhaps.

I thought that too until watching a TV programme a couple of months ago;

 

The urban landscape accounts for 10.6% of England, 1.9% of Scotland, 3.6% of Northern Ireland and 4.1% of Wales.

Put another way, that means almost 93% of the UK is not urban. But even that isn't the end of the story because urban is not the same as built on.

In urban England, for example, the researchers found that just over half the land (54%) in our towns and cities is greenspace - parks, allotments, sports pitches and so on.

Furthermore, domestic gardens account for another 18% of urban land use; rivers, canals, lakes and reservoirs an additional 6.6%.

Their conclusion?

In England, "78.6% of urban areas is designated as natural rather than built". Since urban only covers a tenth of the country, this means that the proportion of England's landscape which is built on is…

 

… 2.27%.

Fine if you live, work and play within the confines of a city, but the reality is very different to most peoples perception.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096

 

 

Electric Vehicles :

I can currently drive home to my boat in Plymouth (300+ miles) in my 'oil-burner' without stopping or re-fuelling.

Can I do this in an EV ? NO.

The average seems to be between 150 and 250 miles * and then takes 6-8 hours to recharge so I need to get half-way then stop the night in a B&B / Hotel and set off the following day to complete the journey.

it may be practical for city-dwellers but for a number of users it is an horrendously inefficient and expensive way of travelling

The official mileage range of the the Leaf is 258 miles on a combined driving cycle (that’s city and motorway), or 168 miles at motorway speeds.The Kona Electric has a bigger battery, and an official rating of 300 miles per charges, and the e-Golf, officially, should be capable of 186 miles.

 

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4 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

Rapid charger times at motorway services (for example) are more like 30 to 60 minutes.

But isn’t that just to 70% or something?  If so you’d now need two or three stops. 

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The 1st question to ask before purchasing a 2nd hand EV is: How much to replace the battery pack (or how much is left on the battery warranty)?

It is still early days for used EV's and the subsequent owners arent used to their battery packs reaching their sgelf life. Example: 

BMW i8 is now 5 yrs old. Battery life: est. 8yrs. Replacement cost

 out of warranty: £8 to £10k!

 

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Typically 80% I believe as charging slows down dramatically above that.

 

Clearly EVs are not yet the solution for ALL journeys but I would think journeys over, say, 250 miles are pretty rare for most people. It probably won't be too long before real world ranges of 200 miles or more are common for newer EVs.

 

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5 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

Typically 80% I believe as charging slows down dramatically above that.

 

Clearly EVs are not yet the solution for ALL journeys but I would think journeys over, say, 250 miles are pretty rare for most people. It probably won't be too long before real world ranges of 200 miles or more are common for newer EVs.

 

There must be 1000s of sales Reps, Engineers, Service people etc all doing over 200 miles per day

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27 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

Rapid charger times at motorway services (for example) are more like 30 to 60 minutes.

Interesting document / test report here :

https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/economical-cars/electric-cars/726/electric-car-range-how-far-will-they-really-go-on-a-single

 

Worth reading all of the article

 

And quite pertinent :

 

A recent revelation (Jan 2019) has been unearthed about the Nissan's powertrain though. It turns out that you can’t rapid-charge the Leaf’s batteries more than once on a single journey.

Nissan says that this is to ‘safeguard’ the battery, in order to maintain battery life over an extended time period. While this won’t affect the range, it is something to bear in mind if you regularly travel long distances. While fast chargers will generally let you charge from empty to 80 per cent in around 30 minutes, on the trickle charge, it might take you more like two hours.

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9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There must be 1000s of sales Reps, Engineers, Service people etc all doing over 200 miles per day

 

No doubt, and then millions of motorists who aren't.

 

I'm not suggesting, and I doubt if anyone is, that EVs are the answer for everyone.

 

On the subject of journey length, this comes from an article in the Guardian in 2017...

 

 "While that may not sound much compared to the 400-500 miles or more that a petrol or diesel car can manage before refilling, most car journeys in the UK would easily be accomplished in an electric car. Half of journeys are one to five miles; 38% are for five to 25 miles and only 2% are for 50 miles and more."

 

If it's only 2% for over 50 miles it must be a lot less for over 200 so I think the word rare is justified.

 

full article here. .. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/26/electric-cars-everything-you-need-to-know

 

 

 

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