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Diesel Vs Electric


Fly Navy

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8 hours ago, dor said:

As well as the many tens of thousands of boats on inland waters, and all the sea-going boats, there are hundreds of thousands of tractors, other farm machinery and then there is all the diesel engines used in the construction industry.  None of these have a particularly big turnover, so even if they were included in the ban on IC engines, there will be a huge number that will need to keep going for many years after any IC ban is put in place for cars.

 

Whatever the environmentalists and the idiot hard of thinking section of the media says, there will still be a demand for diesel fuel for many years to come.

wot he said.

 

My employers had a team of new Cat 583 pipelayers in 1967.  I came across the same actual machines still in use in 2008.  Like many pieces of construction equipment, they work extremely hard for 20 minutes, then rest on tickover for several hours, and may only get used for 50 days in year.  Today they cost about $1/2 million when new and won't be replaced for many years to come.

 

There will be no change-over from diesel for construction plant, mobile generators, small ships and the like in my lifetime. 

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

 

 

Does this perhaps means they have to produce diesel and need to get rid of it somehow as long as they are making petrol. 

 

no.

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55 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Not really, if you arnt selling diesel cars production will have to be cut drastically, pointless making something you cant sell or not many wants

If not consumed as fuel  what happens to the increased inevitable production of distillate from the petrol refining process due to the increase in demand for petrol as the popularity of petrol cars increases?

 

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20 minutes ago, MartynG said:

If not consumed as fuel  what happens to the increased inevitable production of distillate from the petrol refining process due to the increase in demand for petrol as the popularity of petrol cars increases?

 

In recent years because of the demand for diesel they have been manipulating the process to produce it which costs more energy to achieve, because demand is dropping  no need to do that anymore. Last year I was on holiday and met with a petrol chemical engineer, and he explained how it all worked, very interesting and informative to say the least

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6 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Honesty is the best policy ? Do you think if the figures showed you that eating less veg would help the climate you would eat more meat? Its funny how peoples views change when they enjoy a certain lifestyle. One of our sproggs is vegetarian and has been for nearly forty years so I know were you are coming from so to speak. As for flying, dont get me started. We have just about every body and every government in the World telling us to drive less, buy electric cars etc etc and yet air travel is rising every year, year on year burning humungous amounts of fuel and whenever these politicians have a " meeting " " summit " to talk about saving the planet they all turn up at the venue in seperate aeroplanes instead of using readily available technology that means they have no need to go anywhere :banghead: Of course saving the planet is just for us underlings and not the wealthy innitt.

Food for thought Tim
http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/si...aircraft-motor

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8 hours ago, peterboat said:

In recent years because of the demand for diesel they have been manipulating the process to produce it which costs more energy to achieve, because demand is dropping  no need to do that anymore. Last year I was on holiday and met with a petrol chemical engineer, and he explained how it all worked, very interesting and informative to say the least

In that case if demand falls and they no longer  need to manipulate the process  and therefore save on energy , will that not reduce the cost of diesel  production?

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6 minutes ago, MartynG said:

In that case if demand falls and they no longer  need to manipulate the process  and therefore save on energy , will that not reduce the cost of diesel  production?

Yes, but since when did that have any influence over retail prices - especially if it means they could go down. Fast up and very slow down if forced.

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5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Yes, but since when did that have any influence over retail prices - especially if it means they could go down. Fast up and very slow down if forced.

We might live in hope.

 

At one time diesel was cheaper than petrol . I believe this is in part due to the unavoidable production of distillate during the petrol refining process. If there is not sufficient demand that product has to go to waste or perhaps it has to be sold cheaply.

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Little consideration seems to be given to the latest Euro 6 approved diesel-engined cars . Our own 2015 Mini attracts just £30 a year VED, others zero in line with all electric cars. If the government holds them in such high regard aren't we on track to meet the pollution goals, especially as the next even tighter Euro 7 standards are being prepared. See below the massive advances made since 1992 when Euro 1 was introduced. 

 

ht-eu-emissions-standards.jpg

Edited by by'eck
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20 hours ago, Fly Navy said:

Sorry. I should have been more specific. For "Narrow Boats" use: "Canal Boats".

The Canal Trust like lots of other quasi 'non-governmental' entity, is required to be stand alone by various dates. I used to work for one.

That said - Environmentalists are becoming more and more vociferous as the years pass and the government see "green" as a vote winner.

Either the canal users embrace change (in this case by going electric / hybrid early), or the government will do it for us (on their terms rather than ours).

The Canal Trust are best placed to be the voice for the users..

So now you are discounting the many thousands of boats on our river sysyems. My cruising grounds include the River Great Ouse,river Cam, river Lark, river Little Ouse, river Wissey plus various lodes and of course the Middle Levels and the Nene and of course that leads to the canal system 

Phil

Edited by Phil Ambrose
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2 minutes ago, Phil Ambrose said:

So now you are discounting the many thousands of boats on our river sysyems. My cruising grounds include the River Great Ouse,river Cam, river Lark, river Little Ouse, river Wissey plus various lodes and of course the Middle Levels and Be me, oh and of course that leads to the canal system 

Phil

And, Rivers - for which C&RT are in many cases the responsible Navigation Authority.

 

Some 33% of C&RTs "waterways" are rivers - maybe FlyNavy is proposing that C&RT and the Government give financial support to re-engine boats on canals but not those on the Rivers.

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11 hours ago, Matt&Jo said:

There is noooooo way the infrastructure will be in place for electric powered narrowboats....can you imagine the costs or hikes in licence fees for funding that, the hundreds of miles of canals and charging stations where......?

 

I dont think diesel engines will die for all applications....just road vehicles....unless technology takes a huge leap

Actually it was interesting to see last year on one of the French canals that we were on, might have been the Rhine and Rhone,  Anyway the hire companies were running some electric boats, big things not day boats, and the infrastructure, charging points etc. were going in in various places. So if Hire companies in the UK were 'encouraged' to go electric then maybe that would be how it evolves. Mind you how you would prevent the locals from destroying the things could be a problem.

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22 minutes ago, Bee said:

Actually it was interesting to see last year on one of the French canals that we were on, might have been the Rhine and Rhone,  Anyway the hire companies were running some electric boats, big things not day boats, and the infrastructure, charging points etc. were going in in various places. So if Hire companies in the UK were 'encouraged' to go electric then maybe that would be how it evolves. Mind you how you would prevent the locals from destroying the things could be a problem.

Sad but true.

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1 hour ago, MartynG said:
1 hour ago, MartynG said:

In that case if demand falls and they no longer  need to manipulate the process  and therefore save on energy , will that not reduce the cost of diesel  production?

 

11 hours ago, peterboat said:

Not really, if you arnt selling diesel cars production will have to be cut drastically, pointless making something you cant sell or not many wants

At one time diesel was cheaper than petrol . I believe this is in part due to the unavoidable production of distillate during the petrol refining process. If there is not sufficient demand that product has to go to waste or perhaps it has to be sold cheaply.

You guys do not understand Refineries! Diesel is not going to go AWOL!

A typical refinery with lots of kit (vac distillation, hydrocrackers, cokers etc etc) with a medium crude will make 1/4 gasoline, 1/4 gasoil and 1/2 heavies (HFO and residue). Gasoline and Gasoil are both distillates. Gasoline (which we call petrol) is a lighter fraction and preferably contains branched chains of carbon molecules with unsaturation. Gasoil (which we call diesel) is a heavier distillation fraction and contains mainly straight chains of carbon molecules (we call them paraffins). In the past the demand for gasoil was lower so it had a lower price at the refinery gate. Today I notice that the price gasoil (at the refinery gate) is now 25% higher than gasoline so it is in more demand. The prices are about £0.20p per litre so you can see what profit/tax is taken out before we get it.

The key though is that gasoil is made for diesel AND heating oil. They are the same...more or less. Bit of viscosity difference in the specs but a lot of refineries refineries make one gasoil product and use that to supply both markets (BP Grangemouth did). Diesel will not disappear as heating oil is going to be around for a long time. If both diesel and heating oil disappeared then refineries could not function the way they are as the straight chain paraffins in diesel would not be good for petrol. You cannot easily change a paraffin into a branched molecule.

I think we are safe in having a good supply of diesel for the next 20-30 years but the challenge will come when petrol is being phased out......then refineries become redundant......!

Biodiesel!!!! Not sure about that! When it was introduced 15 years ago, there was a lot of talk about biodiesel being worse for diesel bug .....not a problem for road vehicles but for low turnover fuel users ie Boats, there was concern.

At the end of the day, the price we pay for diesel will be at the whim of the government as we pay so much in tax. £0.20 at the refinery gate seems so attractive.

 

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I could not help wondering what proportion of road diesel fuel goes into private cars and what proportion goes into HGVs. It turns out that up to 2012 (the most recent figures I could find) HGVs and diesel LGVs (ie vans) account for about 60% - 70% of total diesel use. I can't see the fuel used in goods vehicles changing soon, so there should be plenyy of DERV for the private user for the foreseeable future. 

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1 hour ago, by'eck said:

Little consideration seems to be given to the latest Euro 6 approved diesel-engined cars . Our own 2015 Mini attracts just £30 a year VED, others zero in line with all electric cars. If the government holds them in such high regard aren't we on track to meet the pollution goals, especially as the next even tighter Euro 7 standards are being prepared. See below the massive advances made since 1992 when Euro 1 was introduced. 

 

ht-eu-emissions-standards.jpg

The problem was most of the Euro 6 diesels failed Euro 6-d temp which is a real life euro 6 test, which is why the Xtrail has had all its problems the figures were just lab figures Euro 6-d are real life figures and diesels are struggling to pass them thank VW for it all

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39 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

I could not help wondering what proportion of road diesel fuel goes into private cars and what proportion goes into HGVs. It turns out that up to 2012 (the most recent figures I could find) HGVs and diesel LGVs (ie vans) account for about 60% - 70% of total diesel use. I can't see the fuel used in goods vehicles changing soon, so there should be plenyy of DERV for the private user for the foreseeable future. 

Add in another X% for Plant, Construction, Agriculture, Railways, Military, Commercial Boating and there is not a lot left for 'private cars'.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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5 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

I think we are safe in having a good supply of diesel for the next 20-30 years

 

You are correct in that I do not fully understand the refining process which is why I am fishing for information.

It seems the general view is price will go up . 

20 to 30 years is not very long is it.  

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1 hour ago, Phil Ambrose said:

So now you are discounting the many thousands of boats on our river sysyems. My cruising grounds include the River Great Ouse,river Cam, river Lark, river Little Ouse, river Wissey plus various lodes and of course the Middle Levels and the Nene and of course that leads to the canal system 

Phil

The Broads Authority have an ongoing plan of installing electric points but are slightly disappointed that their main use is to run dishwashers.

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10 minutes ago, MartynG said:

It seems the general view is price will go up . 

 

Price of gasoline and diesel to the consumer will be set by the wholesale price of gasoline/gasoil leaving the refinery gate and then the taxation regime of where you live. The wholesale price is purely driven by supply/demand and that will be linked to the price of oil. Increase the demand or reduce the supply (viz OPEC) and price of crude goes up....so do the products at the refinery gate. What will supply/demand be in 20-30 years time? Me....No idea. Unless someone comes up with something stella, our use of fossil fuels 'aint goin change much (globally). Demand is going to increase as population increases but supply...? Most oil companies are moving towards much higher gas/oil ratio in their sales as worldwide gas reserves are much higher than oil but unless you are on the board of one of those energy giants, you 'aint goin know what they are up to.

I'd worry more about local taxation and what it will do to price.......and who sets it!.......viz Brussels telling us how much to pay for red diesel!!!!!!!!......roll on the 29th.

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The UK taxation regime is such that an increase in refinery gate price means an increased tax take for HMRC.

Forecourt price = Refinery gate price + petroleum duty + VAT on the whole lot. Yes, a tax on a tax. Shocking isn't it!

42 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Add in another X% for Plant, Construction, Agriculture, Railways, Military, Commercial Boating and there is not a lot left for 'private cars'.

 

The figures I could find were only for road fuel -- not sure how big "X" might be, but perhaps a figure between 1 and 5 (percent)?

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I suspect diesel could be available on the canals for some time yet. I predict public opinion will be a bigger issue, they already hate us because we don't pay poll tax, so our visibly smokey exhausts will then become a big target. If we have to go to particle filters, turbo chargers, common rail injection, and urine injection then we might decide that electricity is the better option. ?

 

..............Dave

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