nicknorman

February 19

4 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

And again. 😉

Corrected that for you because it makes me feel important and clever when I put other people down. I am quite sad really, but hey I can’t help who I am. 👍

Very true.

February 19

12 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

And yet the time spent bothering to type a reply says otherwise. 😉

If you say so.

1 hour ago, IanD said:

That's exactly the kind of attitude that discourages newbies from posting on CWDF... 😞

You are confused. I want to discourage newbies like that from posting on CWDF. So I’ll accept the praise, thank you.

February 19

3 hours ago, cheesegas said:

So my Zeus arrived a few days ago via a distributor, and whilst it'll be a while until I can hook it up to the alternator, here's a first look. I powered it up on 12v first to make sure it all fires up! As a background, this is now one of three external alternator regulators with system integration on the market, but it's squarely aimed at competing with the Wakespeed especially as the marketing makes a big deal about it coming with the wiring looms! The user interface also promises to be much better as it's purely Bluetooth and an app, rather than Putty or uploading text files like with the Wakespeed.

Forum uploader seems to be rotating all the pictures at random no matter what I do to them and their metadata so please try and ignore that...

Opening the box, it's packaged very nicely in a large single wall cardboard box - regulator on top in high density foam, looms under it in their own boxes. There's no paper manual in there but there's a QR code which takes you to the manual and the app.

The case is a nicely finished extruded aluminium affair, with all connectors on one end cap and the large Bluetooth antenna on the other. The antenna is a standard plastic folding thing with an SMA connector. The Zeus has an IP67 rating, but this SMA connector is only IP67 when mated so you'll need to leave it attached, just in case you're concerned about it getting in the way after configuring it. The antenna is an IP67 version with a silicone ring inside.

Connectors on the bottom are mostly good news - the battery harness is a TE Connectivity Ampseal which is internally sealed, and the alternator harness is also a TE Connectivity product. Both are sealed well and are of very high quality.

However...the CANbus RJ45 is a Kinsun which, like most connectors of this type, is only IP68 when mated with the appropriate connector. If you plug a standard RJ45 into this, it's prone to let in moisture and corrode itself eventually, I work on LED display modules outdoors and this is common with RJ45s! You need the matching mating part of the connector which is not provided in the box; Kinsun part number 3351L and I could not find a UK stockist for it. Additionally, this type of connector needs to be put on the cable before the RJ45 end is crimped on. Seems like an oversight, making an IP67 rated device but making it difficult to maintain the rating when connected up! It would have been nice to see something like a Neutrik Ethercon here, which is available all around the world, or to simply put in the box the other half of the Kinsun.

Internally, all of the connectors are properly sealed including the screwholes, and the RJ45 is internally potted to ensure no water can get through. Both end caps have substantial rubber seals, and the screws go into pre-tapped threads rather than being self tappers. There's also a dab of silicone on the back of the antenna's SMA connector to seal that.

Before getting into the electronics side of it and staying with the mechanical/waterproofing theme - the PCB is a heavily made multi layer board with a full groundplane, which is used for a heatsink. Everything is populated on the top, the bottom is bare. However, it does not have a conformal coating which is odd for a product aimed at the marine market. The five electrolytics are good Japanese quality, rated at 105 degrees C and have tall 15mm cans. I would have liked to see a splooge of epoxy under them though, as they're vulnerable to vibration damage, especially as it'll be mounted close to the engine. The only mechanical attachment is via the through-hole solder joints; fine for something like a computer motherboard but not great for this application.

Getting onto the electronics, I could not find an FPGA or system-on-chip microcontroller on here at all, which is very very odd! I can only think that it's fully encapsulated under the Bluetooth module, but there are only few traces going to it on the back of the board. It may be a 3 or more layer board though.

Going from left to right we have:

MCP2510 CANbus controller. This has an SPI interface, so whatever microcontroller is used will likely have SPI natively

MCP2551 CAN transceiver. This will sit between the 2510 and the connector to form a complete solution. There is NMEA2k as well as CANBUS but only one transceiver, so there's some duplexing happening here.

Fanstel BT840e 2.4ghz Bluetooth module. The antenna is also a Fanstel product designed to work with this module, an ANT060. It's a complete integrated RF solution with SPI and I2C; I expect the microcontroller will use SPI as the I2C pins don't appear to be connected

Under the blue/white cable is 4 generic ICs which don't appear to have datasheets, I expect they are analog to digital converters.

SUM70040E MOSFET, rated at 120A drain current. Very over-spec'd. Nice! Unsure what the single one is for, the two at the top right will be for controlling the alternator field in positive and negative configuration.

MP9486A 1A DC-DC buck converter controller. 4.5v-100v input range and 170uA quiescent current, the Zeus should have a very low standby draw. This is probably used to derive 3.3v or 5v for the internal ICs from the 12v-48v input from the battery.

LTC7001 MOSFET driver and two more SUM70040E MOSFETs, purpose mentioned earlier.

Overall, I think this is a very well made product with good attention paid to waterproofing, the only exception being the RJ45 port. As of now, it's impossible to get the mating part of the connector in the UK easily, so it will be a weak point. However, due to the well-designed connector, it will not allow moisture into the unit. A conformal coating would have been nice, and I wonder why it was not done. There's a lot of test points on the board so it may be to speed up quality control, as the coating makes it impossible to use the test points unless they're masked.

If it's going in the engine bay, I'd treat it as IP62 when mounted with the ports facing down as water will collect in both the RJ45 socket and plug if there's a cable in it. Best to get it high up away from spray, or perhaps make a little shield for the RJ45.

Mechanically it's generally good with all the ports fixed to the case rather than just the PCB, but some epoxy goo under the inductor and electrolytics wouldn't go amiss. RJ45 aside, the connectors are very high spec and unlikely to ever cause any trouble, and all the looms are made extremely well.

In the box, a laminated paper wiring diagram showing what colour wires go where would have been a good idea as it's difficult to keep on referring to your phone/laptop in the engine bay, but the PDF manual is excellent and has the wiring colours on two pages which is easy to print out as a reference.

Thanks for that, very interesting. Fascinating to see how others have done it but to be honest I’m fairly surprised that they have made it so complicated. Why not just use an off the shelf alternator controller chip and a micro controller with built in CAN controller. No need for lumping great electrolytics. And why have they used through-hole resistors, no-one does that any more! The board does look sparsely populated but perhaps they needed a fairly big board for MOSFET heat dissipation.

To be fair their design does work with + and - controlled alternators but OTOH if you are going to do surgery on the alternator to cut out the regulator, it’s not really much more effort to reconnect one of the brushes to negative and thus only need a positive regulator.

Obviously weather protection is your thing but IMO for a typical narrowboat installation I don’t think significantly waterproofed case is necessary. Even in a cruiser stern installation, provided you keep it away from drips etc I think it is only dampness that needs to be protected against and so the lack of a conformal coating does seem very surprising.

Anyway, the proof of the pudding etc so it will be interesting to hear how you get on with it.

February 19

39 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

And the prize for most self-important tool of the year goes to……. 😂

As I’ve said so many times, it’s just a forum. nobody makes you reply to anyone. Do it with good grace and generosity or don’t bother at all. You’re not saving lives.

No but the point is should he ever want any more advice (which I agree seems unlikely) then he won’t be getting it from me. And I suspect not from the other usual suspects.

If you want people to help you, you don’t go around calling them “condescending” when they have just been doing their best to be helpful with very limited information. On the other hand, as seems likely, if he just enjoys winding people up or is so sociopathic that he doesn’t care, nothing is lost. But if he doesn’t realise how he came across, it seems only fair to point that out before he falls out with more people. He can take it or leave it.

Oh and while I’m on, I’ll mention that the importance of your opinion of me is somewhere between insignificant and miniscule. If I have time later I’ll get my microscope out and see if I can spot it.

February 19

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

Given that the OP was making what was effectively a peace offering post, that's exactly the kind of unhelpful and condescending reply that wound him up in the first place... 😞

He deserves to know how he made me feel.

February 19

10 hours ago, Manxcat54 said:

Sorry if my posts offended anyone, all I needed was a little help with something I was unsure of, but what I ended up with was a very strange feeling of not really being welcome, into some kind of closed club, and some what I found quite condescending replies, maybe it is just me? I hope that in the future I can visit the forum with peace of mind in the hope that I get simple sensible answers when required, hope you all have a good day. Malc

Your posts didn’t offend me, but they did irritate me a bit. You started off with a very general question which gave the impression you didn’t know much. I spent some time going over the basics in my replies. Yes basics, but it still takes time and effort to write the words. Then it seemed you had intentionally tricked us by not mentioning that you were going to go for Lithium batteries. And then shortly after asking for help and me spending some time giving it, you changed your mind and decided you didn’t want any help. And now we are condescending apparently. All of which leads me to believe that you are quite an annoying and high maintenance person on whom I shall certainly not be wasting any more time.

February 17

Just now, Manxcat54 said:

I think I will tackle it myself, you lot are too smart for me.

Jolly good. Do let us know how you get on once it is all put together and working.

February 17

1 minute ago, Manxcat54 said:

I will be using Lithium

Ah well, that is a whole new can of worms!

February 17

7 minutes ago, Manxcat54 said:

I haven't mentioned which batteries I am using ?

Not sure if that is a statement or a question! You did say "3 leisure batteries". I have leisure batteries too. They are lithium! But I presumed you meant conventional lead acid wet leisure batteries.

February 17

Yes I fogot to mention battery monitoring, which is silly because it is something I am always recommending! Personally these days I would go for the BMV712 because the bluetooth link to the phone is so useful.

I disagree somewhat with Tony on the advantages of alternator add-ons. I used to share his view until I installed a precisely controlled alternator controller (this was as a precursor to fitting Lithium batteries, but I still had the lead acids for a while). I found that the modern digital regulation did make much more difference than I expected. Tony is correct to say that a battery will only take so much current, but in practice the regulation of a conventional built in alternator regulator is very poor in that there is long period where the maximum current it can supply reduces, long before the charging voltage reaches the regulated value of 14.4v or whatever. It really does make a big difference during the mid-charging phase, although it is of course true that the lengthy tapering off of charge current to reach 100% state of charge once the voltage has reached 14.4v, still has to be endured.

February 17

46 minutes ago, Manxcat54 said:

MtB

Thanks I already have an understanding of the charging systems and the stages of charge, a lot came from my motorcycle knowledge and using optimate chargers etc. What I would dearly like to know is, what would be the best way to keep my batteries in shape without getting too complex, I see all Vitron equipment and I just feel it is overkill, someone told me to look at the Mastervolt Alpha Pro, which seems straightforward enough, I am all for the simple life, and a believer in the fact that too much technology can mean more to go wrong, so has anyone used any systems that have proven to work well. Thanks for your input (no Pun)

If you just have lead acid batteries and one alternator then there is not much complexity that can be created! Just use a VSR as previously mentioned, to connect the engine and battery banks together when charging is taking place. Using a VSR is slightly better than a split charge relay because the latter is associated with charging from the alternator only whereas a VSR keeps everything charged from a battery charger or solar.

So looking at other sources of charging: Solar is very popular these days, and for good reason. Prices are down and efficiency is up. But it depends on your type of usage, which I don't think you've mentioned. Certainly if you are a live aboard it would be crazy to not have as much solar as you can reasonably fit on the roof (whilst still allowing access to lock ladders etc). On the other hand if you tend to cruise for long days every day, it is not worth it.

But then again, for 3 months of the winter solar does virtually nothing so you need another means of charging and this of course could be your boat engine with the VSR already mentioned. But another way is to use a generator (a quiet one please!) and battery charger. And the battery charger does also allow you to charge from shore power if you are in a marina or some moorings where there are electric bollards.

If you are going to be running the engine a lot just to charge the batteries, it might make sense to use some sort of external alternator controller, since the built-in regulators suffer from current tailing off long before the regulated voltage is reached, and this slows charging. Adverc used to be the popular one, not sure if that is still sold. Or a Sterling one. The Alpha Pro is a good regulator but very expensive and I'm not sure it is worth it for lead acid batteries. Plus you need to do a certain amount of surgery on the alternator to access the field circuit directly.

February 17

29 minutes ago, MtB said:

Not necessarily. People have died from the CO coming off a cooker grill. Admittedly they closed the grill door while cooking in contravention of the Instructions For Use, but the CO involved cannot have been trivial.

Yes but that was not due to CO from a flame touching a metal pan etc. That was from severe incomplete combustion caused by lack of oxygen due to closing the drill door. No doubt had they been able to see it the flame would have been yellow and sooty. My “very small” relates to the CO produced when an otherwise good flame plays on a saucepan etc.

Certainly, any time there is a “bad flame” (yellow and sooty) there is plenty of CO being emitted.

February 17

3 hours ago, MtB said:

And another. The cooker.

Anything involving flame chilling, e.g. flames playing on metal surfaces such as gas rings heating kettles, or grills, chucks out CO. So don't be surprised if the CO monitor shows a result when you're cooking.

This is of course correct, but the amounts involved are very small. Our CO detector is within about 5 feet of the hob but it has never come off 0 during cooking. Nor even when I bring it closer. Presumably with the CO being mixed with hot air and hot CO2, it rises quickly to the top of the cabin and then out through a mushroom vent.

February 17

22 minutes ago, Reeferman said:

Good day to you.

I posted a wanted this morning and now want to delete it and all the snarky comments from your group.

Please advise.

You poor thing, have you been triggered? I can recommend a good councillor.
But then again, since your easiest option is simply not to visit this site again, the fact that you have started a new thread is a clear indication that in fact you want attention and reasons to feel aggrieved. We are quite good at giving that - for free! You are welcome.

28 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

You cannot delete. A member of admin might do? Ask a mod.

Well let's hope they decide not to. If everyone who started a thread had the option to have it all deleted when they didn't like the way it went, that would be a major discouragement for bothering to reply at all.

February 17

19 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I'm sure you know all this, being an electronic genius, however I thought I would share it here anyway. Whilst investigating my optimum tail current termination valuation vs absorbrion voltage, I came across this quote from Rod:

From this page on tinterweb

https://nordkyndesign.com/charging-marine-lithium-battery-banks/

Yes it’s a good point. I got the Li battery in the early winter and so far, what with snow on the panel, the panel blowing over etc etc, the solar has never got even close to fully charging the battery. But in summer, it will do. Which is a good reason for getting an MPPT controller!

It’s actually also a good point in relation to charging with an alternator which is intrinsically fairly rippley. In our case the Combi input capacitors act to smooth out the ripples a lot, but a system with just an alternator and no large capacitors in the system, is going to have plenty of ripple. At some point I might take my ‘scope down to the boat and check out the ripple with and without the Combi in circuit. Probably the ripple won’t be that bad at lower SoC due to the very low internal resistance of the Li, but it will be interesting see the ripple as the batteries approach 100% and the current is tapering.

February 16

Our CO detector always reads zero. Well it should do. A couple of years ago it started showing a reading whenever the stove door was opened to refuel etc - and it is not close to the stove.

To cut a long story short I removed the flue pipe because it was choked up with a very hard concrete-like deposit and at one point near the stove, the clear diameter was only about an inch. Cleared it all out with a long chisel etc and since then it has been fine with always 0 on the CO detector.

So probably your flue is severely restricted. Personally I disagree about removing the baffle plate, the plate is there for a reason and helps improve the efficiency of the stove, but you do need to clean out the space above the baffle plate from time to time.

2 minutes ago, Timx said:

Thanks, but have done that, and swept chimney twice.

Thanks, that throat plate is already removed.

If it is anything like our flue was, sweeping it is ineffective because the deposits are rock hard.

February 16

9 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Ok. Thanks. The absorbtion is usually set between 13.9 and 14.1 Volts for a 10 minute duration. So, if I want to use the tail current setting, it should be set to 5% of my 280Ahr LI + 100 Ahr LA bank = 19 A, or 5 % of 280Ahr = 14A? The chargers are capable of 30A each, and there are 2.

Ah well here we run headlong into the problem of mixing batteries of different chemistries. The LA wants a tail current setting of 2% or less, the Li wants a tail current setting of 5%. Which is appropriate? There is only one way to find out.

FIGHT!

February 16

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

True, but it's difficult to see what you can do better with a third-party drop-in LFP which doesn't talk to the MPPT (or alternator!) to control charging, via a controller like the Cerbo or similar (or the same function inside charger/inverter combos like the Multiplus/Quattro).

Which is of course what Victron recommend (battery BMS controls charging voltage and current) and what both my boat and yours do, because it's the optimum solution... 🙂

Well it wouldn’t be too hard to link a Victron charger with something that measures battery current such as their BMV712 or Smartshunt. Then the charger would know when to stop charging (when the input to the battery fell to 5%C).

By the way, I checked the Fogstar recommended charge profile, they use EVE cells and have this to say about charging them - the ubiquitous 0.05C aka 5%C again.

February 16

16 minutes ago, IanD said:

Victron don't recommend using a tail current for LFP batteries -- do Fogstar? From the MPPT manual:

Default settings for LiFePO4 batteries
The default absorption voltage is to 14.2V (28.4V) and the absorption time is fixed and set to 2 hours. The float voltage is
set at 13.5V (27V). Equalization is disabled. The tail current is set to 0A, this so that the full absorption time is available
for cell balancing. The temperature compensation is disabled and the low temperature cut off is set to 5. These settings are
the recommended settings for LiFePO4 batteries, but they can be adjusted if the battery manufacturer specifications advise
otherwise.

This is presumably because the charger doesn’t know the battery current. Charging to a specified voltage without regard to the current results in potentially a very large variation in final SoC depending on the relationship between charger output and battery capacity. Certainly with a 2 hour absorb time the current is going to have fallen way off so the battery will be fully charged even if charged at a high C rate, but holding the voltage up at 14.2 for about 1:45 longer than necessary is not optimal. The battery may be slightly over charged.

As we have said, unless there is something wrong with the cells, they do not go out of balance so even with a crappy BMS that needs the voltage to be held up whilst balancing is taking place, in practice there will be no balancing going on during the 2 hours.

Victron don’t make cells. They just assemble batteries. So they, like so many other people, have adapted their LA chargers to roughly suit LiFePO4. Sub optimal!

February 16

51 minutes ago, IanD said:

I'd have thought that 100% SoC would normally be defined as a bit lower voltage (e.g. 3.55V) than the disconnect voltage (e.g. 3.65V), if you take "100% SoC" as the point that the batteries are routinely charged to -- otherwise there's no way to do top balancing should you want to, and you don't want to take the voltage high enough to do this regularly, only occasionally when needed.

Maybe this is difficult to do for Fogstar since it's a drop-in and doesn't control external charging sources, but it's what I'd expect an LFP installation to do.

It might even be 3.55, I can’t remember. On the other hand since they specify 14.4v as the charge voltage, it’s probably 3.60v.

On my own system I use 3.65v as the start of the alarm, I think 3.70 is the disconnect voltage, but since I only charge to 14.3v for a 100% charge (and that is only done once a month) these higher voltages should never be reached. Balancing is triggered if a cell goes over 3.60v but the balancing continues for a calculated period of time regardless of what the charge voltage subsequently is - ie even if the system stops charging. However in the past year, balancing has not been triggered.

Again we are up against the issue of whether the BMS disconnect is used routinely as the charge control, or whether it is there as an emergency backup disconnect.

35 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Anyway, a question for you Lithium experts. I have since recently had the tail current function settings on my Victron mppt controllers set to off. I just turned it on with a 1% of nominal capacity setting of 3A.

Is this:

A}Right

B} Wrong

C} There is no right or wrong or

D} Nobody gives a shit?

They must have changed it since I asked the guy at fogstar then, because he said it could.That was with a JBD BMS.

Quote from Fogstar when I asked in 2022:

Wrong. I would make it 5%. Assuming the system can charge at over 15A. Although it also depends on what voltage settings you have set.

February 16

14 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

You can't change the BMS settings on the Fogstar, can't remember offhand what it actually shuts down at.

The BMS settings can be changed, but you are prevented from doing so by needing the password. I think Fogstar will give you the password but will also note that your warranty will be invalidated for anything to do with cell problems arising from over or undercharge.

February 16

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

What voltage does the Fogstar call 100% SoC?

3.65V/cell (14.6V for a 12V battery) is rather higher than recommended nowadays to routinely cut off charging in day-to-day use, 3.55V (14.2V) is a more normal figure. If you ever want to top balance the cells -- which is rarely if ever needed with a bank built from matched cells -- then a slightly higher voltage is needed, some (e.g. marinehowto) recommend 3.6V/cell (14.4V), some still use 3.65V/cell (14.6V).

Mine (REC-BMS 48V) always turns the MPPT controllers off (100% SoC) at 3.55V/cell (56.8V), at which point all the cell voltages are the same.

3.60v/cell I think. ie that is the BMS disconnect voltage. Which is perhaps a little cautious but probably a good thing.

February 16

10 minutes ago, MJG said:

Out of interest what controller do you have in the 'van?

Ours is in no way manually adjustable, It's a Sargent that came with the 'van when new.

Not totally sure, I think it is an epever PWM controller. Very cheap, but it has the interface for the MT50 display which can be used to adjust all the settings.

I have been thinking of getting an MPPT controller but there is not a huge advantage when the Vmp of the panel is only around 16v

February 16

3 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Shirly one would just increase the absorption voltage in the summer months, and disconnect the solar when not in use. Unless you need it for your caravan bilge pump perhaps.

My point was a general one and not specifically all about me(!) - the point being that charging to a specified limit voltage (which is what solar controllers do) can result in either under or over charging. The latter being more of an issue for Li. Of course it is not an issue for LA.

But to continue with my particular issue I have a 100Ah Li battery and a 100W solar panel. So even in summer on a sunny day (in Scotland) it only is likely to charge at about 5%C and in winter much slower, 1%C if I’m lucky!

In winter I use it to run the telly and Sat box and the electric blanket for Friday evening and Saturday evening. So that probably takes out 40% of capacity. Meanwhile it may get between zero and 5% back in during the day in winter. So I leave on Sunday with it quite low and hope that when I return on Friday evening it will be replenished - otherwise I need to get the genny going. Then as we move towards spring, it gets more charge each day and at some point - varying each week according to the weather, it is going to get to 100% during the week and I am going to be using much less power of an evening. So there is a risk of it being overcharged.

All of which is simply to say that solar controllers are not optimised to Li charging.

February 16

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

The main problem is alternators. In reality that is the only issue facing anyone. If you don't use an altenator to charge then drop in replacement means just that and the solar or mains chargers can be installed to suit the batteries.

Having thought about this a bit more, I can see a problem. Li doesn’t like to be overcharged. As we know, the correct way to fully charge Li is to charge to 3.65v /cell and hold that voltage until the current falls to 5%. Then disconnect.

If you hold the voltage 3.65 with the current below 5%, you are still adding charge to a battery that is already at 100% of its design capacity. Aka overcharging, which risks Li plating and accumulating permanent damage.

With solar, the charge rates can be very low especially in winter or if you have a large bank and small panel. Certainly less than 5%. Let’s us hypothesise at 2% charge in winter - eg 4A for a 200Ah battery.

If your solar controller is set to charge to 3.65v/cell (14.6v) then by the time you reach 14.6v, the battery has been overcharged just the same as if you charged at 50%C to 3.65v and then waited for the current to fall to 2%C. And of course it has been held “up the knee” for a long time. Which will shorten its life. It will probably still last many years, but not as many as if you hadn’t overcharged it.

So even with solar, correctly charging Li is not easy.

For my caravan battery (which is left unattended without significant power drain for days or weeks at a time), I have set the solar to 13.9v with very short absorption time, and float of 13.25v hoping that that is not going to result in the battery being held “up the knee” too far every day. But it is not ideal because when I am using the caravan in summer, it will take longer to recharge at that voltage.

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