Ian Mac

The standard gauge until Mr North decided in the Mid 60's to make the Llangollan 6'10" use to be 7'& 1/2" We are that gauge being an original TCO boat, its fixed by the Tank Bulk heads, ours being the only TCO Boat now with original tank bulk heads still in place. We have been around most of the BCN over the years, the only place where we stick for width is the fore-bay of Camp Hill Top Lock which rotates inwards over time. We stuck there 18mths ago, however it has since been repaired again! twe also such there in 1986!. I am assured it is now OK, I'll know for sure by Monday as we are due through. Length is more interesting we have to lift our fenders on some locks otherwise we do not fit, Ryders Green being one such flight. As for depth there are know bad places - Titford pools are now but a puddle as is the branch along side. The Rushall was bad 18mths ago. we had a fight to get from the Tame valley to the bottom lock. The Daw end was well bumpy. The Bottom of Spoon Lane locks under the bridge is a nightmare! almost as bad as the Lower Peak forest!!!!! The Branch up to Swan Village Spine Road is not good :(The last couple of bridges going up to Bradley Works are ropey. No real problems on the Wallsall or the Wryley or the Old Main Line. The New Main line is very lumpy and the Worcester and Brum is horrid! However we do draw 3'4" at the moment, there are not many who are down that far in the water. Roll on the back plank renewal program! Haven't done locks Stourbridge or Delph for ages, but that was lumpy. however from Stourton to Stourbridge was fine two summers ago. Castle Mills Basin is also shallow with soft mud!

I suspect that the flood water poured over the lock side and has taken the wall with it, 16 locks worth of water is a huge flow rate and will move mountains, once the smallest of cracks appears and the turbulence of the water can get behind it as well as the flow over the effective weir crest, then it stood no chance, you can see bad scouring at the centre where the failure will have happened. Compare the wall in my bad pictures to the wall after the flood and you can see how far it has pushed the wall over.

Get real, no one O.K. there may be the odd mug left will work for free in this day and age, as a regular job. A lock keep use to be provided with a house and it was a job for life, and was a two way rewarding job. Those days had well and truly passed by the end of 1970's. So you would now need a team of lock keepers and they can't evict people as the canal side is now a public place, it use to be private property. and if you are attempting to stop vandalism you would need at last two people, I would not want to meet scrot by myself. So what is a realistic answer, because if we don't come up with one, this problem will not go away, and the result will be further closures and more complex user locks, which will still not stop a determined vandal.

Having seen the picture of the failure, I don't believe the lock side was like that on Wednesday morning, when we worked through, as I would have paniced having seen it. It looks like the wall has been pushed in by water flowing around the lock, caused by the flow of 16 pounds worth of water coming down the flight. That is one hell of a bit of vandalism. The question we should now be asking here is how do we stop that sort of thing, given we can't employee people to work 24/7 on the waterways.It can't have happened by accident and someone must have a key and a windlass to do it, because most people lock most locks most of the time so having 16 out of 21 locks unlocked is not really going to happen. People are not loyal to jobs these days, so will no one would do it and anyway there is no house at the bottom of the flight these days, so what technology can we use?

Pictures - taken with a 2/6 webcam (also out of focus) of the lock in question, as we went through on Wednesday morning. The only thing we noticed was the crap behind the bottom gate, which was stopping the downhill boat coming out of the lock, which we had to help clear, before they could escape and we could enter. In the first picture I can see a crack behind the top coping stone, which could well be a major problem.

Mooring advice for the Ashton - currently being dredged from lock 15 to Dukie Junction, and Lower Peak Forest - (The worst canal in the country for depth!!!!!). Bottom of Marple locks is good - we moored there last November overnight, no problems but its a good hike to the shops and the pub! It nice to moor south of Romiley at the Vale rd aqueduct and then walk down to see the chapel at chadkirk. hard to get into the side. Not had problems at Romiley either in the past. We have moored in Hyde before today again just north of Manchester Rd, with no problems, there is now a boat yard just south of Manchester Rd on the off side where some people feel more secure. Around Dukenfield Junction has been ok in the past. As has Globle Square. however I think the pub has shut there now We moored opposite Ashton Canal Carriers moorings last November for the night and again had no problems. We went to the curry shop at the other end of Hanover St and had a great Curry. Again for the more twitchy they could ask to moor up in the ACC yard but this has no easy exit/entrance and a possible fee. The basin at Fairfield top in Droylsden has been used, again there may be a cost. We have never spent an overnight on the Ashton flight, but we have had dinner at the Strawberry Duck at lock 13 several times without problems. We have always moored up just past Duice St No2. Basin on the main line before Store St aqueduct. Last November was the first time we have ever had any problems in the last 38 yrs, and that was two very drunk girls sitting on the counter playing with the ropes - just a dam nuisance. There are secure mooring on the off side just beyond the aqueduct in Telford Basin and on the off side, again there may be a cost it seems to depend on who you see! They provide the key code to there gated community. Others have moored around the corner in Dale st without problems, there is a gated pontoon here just before the top lock of the 9 (Lock 84) If you go two locks up the Rochdale there is the Isslington Marina which also has some secure moorings, some unsecure ones, a tap and pump-out along with a boaters hut. Remember this is an urban canal so there are more people about, so we normally remove any stuff off the roof and deck before we leave her, anywhere from Manchester to Woodley, but you can never tell, last time we had something knicked we were just south of Norbury on the shroppie -- Cheers Ian Mac

I'll come and stand on one for you my 19&1/2 stone should be a good test! TWBM you, like I, need to go on a diet - I remember the days when you weighed F*** all One of Maureen Shaws tales was how she hated moving off the oil boats, when she got married, and had to learn how to walk along the top planks. Some boaters put diagonal braces under them, to stiffen them up a bit.

I think Tim was correct, I did mean Symbol assuming that was the boat in the dock for years at Ruabon, Love the picture Tim, Froudy was a great man with a wooden boat. So Pete how do you think a wooden boat should be looked after, given steamed timber rots for fun? I think all the above kit may still be installed, just checked my pictures and didn't take any of the engine just the cones. We were told that the engine didn't work, and we were not that interested in it as we were thinking of deconverting her, although the thought of a powered butty for doing things like hampton did have a certain appeal especially as there are no stables these days. Long lining Gifford up there is had work, ditto bow hauling her. As to the Dee Lock and weir, I did hear tell that West Cheshire were looking at installing a proper lock on the west side of the wier, and that BW let the lock fall into disuse because its actually the City of Chesters responsibility to maintain some bit of the navigation and they wouldn't pay, so BW had to declare it unsafe, will check further.

If we don't watch it we will be getting into a viscous circle. C&RT already spend most of their money down south and the northern waterways get neglected, so that when people like Top Cat do stray north he thinks its hard work, where as those who live up North have always known it like this. I've used the canals long enough to know that they all use to be like he has experienced, or far worse, or not even open! Lack of use equal lower spend by C&RT we need to break this circle, without wreaking the historic details. The L&L has always been locked with Handcuff locks everywhere, they have now slowly spread around the system, and the midland area have come up with a good system, which has also found its way onto the Rochdale for example, So should we modernise or keep the traditional stuff, Traditional handcuffs aren't that hard to use, so lets keep them, but we coul improve the paddle gear locks, when the gates are renewed. However we should make swing bridges work, however having scrots who knick the counter weights so they can weigh them in doesn't help C&RT can only replace so may at a time. I personally have never had any problems in Blackburn, I think this is another modern myth, in fact the school kids are a help, unless your a grump with them, then they get all shirty and a problem, but that is the same all over, particularly in Cities. The last time I had any real hassle was in Royal Lemmington Spa which made Burnley look a great place. So Top Cat why did you not complain and get these things fixed just forward your moan her to the appropriate C&RT regional manager and see what he says, and help make the canals a better place - Up North as well.

As you only need 100 PSI then don't muck around, just get the plastic out and get one of these - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VIAIR-1-5Gal-Air-Source-Kit-120-PSI-Fast-Fill-20003-with-Special-VIAIR-Gift-/230960868037?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item35c6572ac5 may be cheaper direct from the states. We have discovered that having full pressure on one of these horns blows the steerer into the middle of next week even when its 70ft away and facing forwards, so we now have a two button system. Press one button and apply about 40psi and the horn sounds, press both and after 10secs it goes up to full pressure for attracting the attention of lock keeper on the Trent, ie very loud mode, it also give enough time to other crew members to get their fingers into their ears - they need to. On the other hand we actually use an old portable paint spray compressor with a C5 12v electric motor, which takes 30amps start current, even with a dump unload system on the compressor. The problem with this is that it takes a lot of mucking around to get an airtight system. Our horn is off a scrapped class 58, unfortunately we only have the one, so we can't play On Ilkley Moor

Some time in the long ago it was dredged, I remember meeting the dredging team up there, and then meeting a train of boats from there going to the tip on Brades, We then went up to the Spine road, the following year, with no problems at all. With this still in our minds we went up there in 2001, we didn't have any real problems untill the final bridge which was full of shopping trolleys and it took a lot of lift out and backing up and rocking to get past them and up to the spine road to wind, With all the thrutching around we turn the cut black, so unfortunately I'm with Laurence in saying until it is better dredged, keep away from it, because it will kill all the fish in the cut, it smells just like our tanks when stirred up. This is a real shame but I think there are other canals where the money should be spent first - the top of Tittford being one, that is very full these days, although we did manage to wind up there last year but picked a golf bag up on the blade doing so, that took a trip into the cut to get off. Its a shame its so bad up there, as I acan remember spinning our boat in the pools and you can't get near them now

Well written DHutch, SmileyPete seems to have missed the title of this thread and/or not read its earlier parts - the case has been hear in court and a fine of £50K has been imposed on the director of the Drydock company. What is now outstanding is the civil case for damages, which will be long and brutal if I know how insurance companies operate, because it is in there interest to keep the claim costs down. As the poor guy died rather than suffering lifetime injuries they will pay the minimum amount possible, it will take years to settle, as the other side will be on no fee support from their solicitor, the fees will normally be picked up by the insurance, unless they made the claim after the recent change in legal support, and distribution of costs. The problem now for all of us is because of this incident and other recent accidents in drydocks, the number of good dry docks available for DIY has reduced almost to zero. There is a new insurance limit of two people working, which now applies to a lot of drydocks, which I believe is a silly limit for the reason which DHutch has explained. I am stlll of the opinion that had this HSE case been fought in the courts rather the the cheap option being taken, that there was every chance that the Drydock Co would have won, but do remember that there is no limit to the fine that can be imposed, and that £50K is not even a smack on the wrist level when we consider similar HSE cases - Network rail were fined several million for there last fatal accident, and the directors threatened with jail terms. see the HSE website As to were I saw the draft statement it was in the witnesses hands.

An interesting problem with a wooden boat this. Given that the wood rots in between 20 and 35 years and needs to be replaced. There are very few "original" wooden boats around, I would suggest that Chance II has a lot of new timber from the early 60's in her. The best way of rebuilding a wooden boat is to take them apart carefully measuring everything, and then start again. This was very hard with Saturn as it was basically soil not wood at all. Another problem is that each master boat builder did the job a different way and we now know that some of those ways led to quick failure of the construction - iron nails for example, so what are you advocating for a wooden boat? Do a Frendship and store them in a shed or a Pluto and let the locals set fire to the remains, or NWM and have to "tidy up" the important bits because some program maker doesn't understand what the bits of rotting wood stored behind a build are, and that a sunken boat is not rotting as fast, but you can't inspect it or use it at all. As to John Seymour - you were correct with the spelling:) I believe he died some time ago, but maybe his family will remember something of the travels and boats, as I believe they lived on Chance II for a good while.

I've been boating for over 50 years and boats still hang up/down - you always have to be alert for danger. Sounding the horn is a good idea it implies an immediacy of action is required, if its the person on the boat which spots the problem first. The locks are always changing and there is always new rubbish in the canal to trap you. Small plastic coke bottle and the like with their caps screwed back on a really good for wedging up between the hull and the lockside, causing you to stay hanging in mid air.

Its harder work and wastes water, so either way its not normally a good thing. However the vast number of people "from Cheshire and the south" are not use to sharing locks as they spend all their time on narrow canals, so they think mistakenly that they will damage their boat if they share. Its been like that for the last 40 odd years on the NIne to my knowledge. The other thing is they will not help each other if they share a lock, but insist on still acting as two separate boats which does slow things down quite a lot. Its a funny old world.

There are two possibilities to the cause of this incident, one is that the brickwork of the lock wall has moved, this does happen, secondly that the design of the boat, has some effect. I have noticed recently that the more modern boats appear to have square edges on both the upper and lower edges of the rubbing strakes, to aid attachment by welding, rather than the traditional feather edged strakes which were attached by rivits and have no lip. As the corners of the square edged strakes are not filled with weld this leave a small square edge, ideal for catching on brick or stonework. I have seen several boats in the last year catch on small protrusions from the lock wall,normally when the lock is filling. It normally seems to happen on the rear gunnel where the back band starts as there is normally a really good square edge on modern boats, which is Ideal for catching on things. The gunnels forwards of this point are normally rounded. I am surprised that this issue is not being picked up by BSS inspectors. Small rope fenders would stop this happening, and as most modern boats are well less that 7ft wide there would normally be plenty of room for them, except at the few pinch locks, a list of which the HNBOC people maintain. I would suggest the fenders are either attached to the grab rail or hang from Grab rail hooks, so that they can easily be lifted when required, having fenders attached to gunnel pins makes the job of lifting them hard and sometimes hazardous.

The boat which is currently called Chance II and moored in Chester is definitely an ex oil boat, one can see the remains to the two oil tight stanks required by the Public Health act to separate the cabins from the cargo. It is also the boat that John Seymore had converted and wrote about in this boat on canals. That states that it was previously a C&H boat. It still has the Hosjkin cone propulsion system which he had fitted, installed, although it does not currently work. We did quite an extensive survey of the boat when it was last up for sale, as we still toy with the idea of owning a butty, but we thought it would take to much work to make her usable for regular canal travel. Also it is well recorded that TCO sold boats to C&H and that C&H did not normally build there own but bought second hand, so she was probably a TCO boat when new. She is an ex horse boat,and had a bow cabin originally, by the look of the hull. There has also been some major work undertaken some time in the past as some of the wooden knees have been doubled up, both in the front and back swims.The hull was watertight, when she arrived in Chester 15 months ago.

I find it interesting that this thread has started up again, I wonder if it has any connection with the fact that the civil case is about to get under way? Having seen the draft copy of one witness report on the incident, I think the chap that died would have done so, even if a handrail was fitted, due to his style of use of the gang plank, with both hands full of paint cans, having refused help, from the other boater on the dock at the same time. The civil case will become interesting as the insurers will fight this tooth and nail, to limit any claim for damages, were as they would not help WDD and instructed (to all intents and purposes) them to plead guilty as it was by far the cheaper option for the insurance company, who did not provide legal cover to fight H&S court cases. The guy that die had also interfered with the set-up of the gangplank which is why he was able to kick it off his boat while stepping onto it - see H&S report. So a handrail would have made no difference to the outcome in my opinion. It may have force him to open his front tarp properly, so that he was not stooping whilst attempting to gain access to the said gang plank, but that is debatable.

Its only 45 mins from Waters meeting to Castlefield, it would take you nearly that long to get to the Trafford centre mooring, so I'd just press on. Don't forget most of the channel from waters meeting as far as the old Hulme lock branch is still we over 8ft deep so you can fair bat on along that length. Alternatively Watch house Cruising Club have visitor mooring and a club house which is open at weekends, as do Sale Cruising Club, both of which make you welcome. The last place before Altrincham is Seaman Moss Bridge which did have a pub by it which did food the Bay Molton as Thwaties House, so its probably shut now The bridge before, Dunham School Bridge also has a pub up the offside some way. The ther is the old number 3 at Bollington Wharf, which is traditionally where I head for. -- cheers Ian Mac PS should in these days of frequent pub closures, not keep a list of pubs and what their state is as a list on here somewhere, so we can all update it with the latest state, and maybe a critique. Maybe a job for canal planner as well.

When you went to the Stanley where did you moor?

We had the environmental health people out to us in Manchester, Dale St basin, when we moored up on the landing cage on the off side there, our smoke went straight in the air conditioning plant of the offices which have now been built there. The office security complained, we told them to get a life, and a decent architect, they sent a man from the council round, we asked him what the problem was. He said we were making smoke in a smokeless zone, we replied that we were indeed doing so and that we were a class 1 mobile furnace installed for heating and cooking and therefore exempt under the act, and what was the now going to do now, to which he answer, were were indeed exempt and that he was going back to the office and then going home for his tea, and that he would inform the company the following day, that they should install the correct filters as they were located in a place were such furnaces could well be used. This was two years ago, maybe they have a different Environmental health man now, but I do not believe that the clean air act has not been modified recently, and therefore all canal boats etc are still exempt, unless they have some other new string to their bow. Other exemptions are any properties which have been red ringed, when the act was enabled in a borough, these are normally properties which are not gas connected an unlikely to become so, and are situated in either greenbelt or countryside. The council have a list of such properties, which is part of the order made by the council and signed by the secertary of state, the council do occasionally modify the order which then requires suitable public notices and a further signing by the S.o.S. You are also allowed to make black smoke for up to 10 minutes per hour without any exemption, and also when ashing out. The interesting thing is that legally black smoke is not clearly defined, but the smoke from normal household coal, is not black but grey! Its all to do with the particle counts and sizes. Which is why the council probably said they would have to monitor the smoke being produced. So basically it was a bluff, to keep their constituents and rate payer happy, which of course the boat dwellers probably are not. -- cheers Ian Mac

It is my understanding that the law is very clear on the subject of the person in charge of a boat has to be within the legal alcohol limit. It is a European law and our stupid government did not get a derogation so by default it applies to ALL boats in the UK. Oh and it is the lower European limit not the UK limit of 80mg/100ml but 50mg/100ml in blood. However unless something goes wrong it will be very unlikely that the police will become involved as it is not simple UK law enforcement and they may get the procedures wrong, and it may become a nightmare in the courts. -- Cheers Ian Mac

There are three sorts of strings used about the rear of a motor boat. There are the decorative turks heads which are on the tiller extension, these have the practical function of making sure that the paint on the cabin roof isn't chipped when you take the tiller bar off, when you go through a lock. One always should remove your tiller because it is capable of catching the lock side and getting bent if you leave it on. These Turks heads are sometimes also placed on the swan neck, purely as decoration or maybe to stop the butty bashing into the swans neck paintwork? The dangly bit hanging from the tiller pin is a modern invention, one needs to be able to quickly remove the tiller pin in locks, so no proper boatman would have one of those. Tiller strings, are short loops which come from just inside the back cabin doors and hold the tiller in place line astern, these as already said enable one to hold the tiller straight whilst you shaft the front of he boat around, when reversing or doing other menovers where one wants the tiller to stay in-line, Some traditional boats have balanced rudders and they also need tiller strings for when they pop away from the tiller to brew up etc, to keep the boat on a steady course. Chimney Strings traditionally attached to the Chimney chain, hook or loop. These are used to store the strapping rope, out of the way. In theory all these strings should be spotlessly white, some boaters used blanco to whiten them. Nearly all these bits of string are bespoke to the boat and were therefore made by the boatman. who of course where normally dab hands at slicing ropes, it was part of the job description. Splicing and simple knots are not that hard, there are some excellent you-tube videos showing how it is done. -- cheers Ian Mac

O/10 for observation - I've seen them at Dukes Lock, which was originally part of the Bridgewater, before they sold it to the RCC.

The law is very clear on pedestrians and their rights, they always have the right of way, except at controlled pedestrian crossings, when the red man is showing. ( it is not clear if this is all crossing or just one particular sort) At normal trafiic lights pedestrians have the right of way at ALL times, the red and green men are purely advisory. If the dog is under the control of the pedestrian then it is part of the pedestrian and therefore has right of way. Being under control is defined in law as the dog being attach to the person by a short lead. Cyclist have a duty to take reasonable care, when they are near pedestrians. Cyclist can be done for not being in control of their machine (may be know as riding furiuosly), and riding outside their stopping distance, as defined in the highway code for the various speed limits. Cyclist do not require a speedo and so can not be done for speeding, stopping distances do apply and some forces do occasionally use this to prosecute fast cyclist.