billh

3)All part of the long running BW plan to dissuade anyone from boating on North West canals- declaring a Stoppage when the canal isn't actually closed. Seems, if anything, to be a stoppage of Buxton Lane, which must surely be the concern of the local authority, not BW. The other week , we arrived at Dale St from the Ashton to find a notice pinned to the balance beam of the Rochdale "Nine" top lock which said Locks 1 to 18 were closed until further notice ( without specifying which canal this referred to!) . If it was the Ashton 18 then clearly it didn't apply at the time, but anyone coming up the Nine might be tempted to turn back on seeing this. With reference to 1), the cleaner probably has more local knowledge of the canal system than the official "Stoppage Notice Production Officer" Bill

It WAS owned by a comedian, about 12years ago it was out of the water on our slipway for leak investigation. There were holes at the Skip/Yarwoods interfaces which were "repaired" by the then owner. He soon sold it on at a premium based on its supposed historic boat status, I think to the chap who refused to sell the good bit to the owner of the rest of Starling. It seems to have been around a bit since, but not improved any. Bill

The 1920's horseboat conversion to motor definitely was a Kelvin. The engine was a petrol/paraffin "Poppet Valve" 2cylinder model about 9HP. I have seen a picture of the engine with its distinctive "bomb" silencer. The steerer's logbook from the 1930's gives precise information about the amount of petrol, paraffin and lub. oil used in the engine. The Kelvin F2 was fitted to the "New" Joel in 1948, this was a petrol only model of 15HP, converted to Petrol/paraffin using Kelvin parts in 1977. This engine still exists and may be returned to the boat in the future.An interesting feature of the F2 is a Lloyd's inspection stamp on the crankshaft, apparently approving the engine for open sea service! Bill

HYDRAULIC PADDLE GEAR. When first introduced, they were introduced on safety grounds (no nasty gears for people you get mangled by). Thankfully, BW have since seen the error of their ways, and the policy has been reversed, so that hydraulic gear is being phased out, but whilst it remains, and particularly now that it remains but is less common, people need to be aware of the dangers! It can be difficult to see that a hydraulic paddle is part open (the indicators are vulnerable to vandalism. It is alarmingly slow to close a hydraulic paddle in an emergency Unlocking vandal locked hydraulics is also slow. Hydraulic paddles are vulnerable to failing open in a way that rack paddles are not. I think that it is fair to say that if all the paddles concerned had been rack paddles, fitted with snap locks; The lower paddle on 9W would almost certainly not have been left part open. If it had, it would have been quickly closed, and could not have failed open. Paddles upstream at 10W would have been rapidly opened to bring up the level before the situation became so critical that caution was necessary. Lock 9 paddle gear , towpath side tailgate- there were 2 failures- the paddle itself was stuck about 1/3 open, in itself not a problem, winding it up and down a bit usually sorts it out. More importantly in this case, the hydraulic pump( the bit you put the windlass onto) was not working AT ALL, there was no resistance to turning so no oil pressure developed to move the paddle ram.An attempt was made to manually force the paddle down ,but it was difficult to apply any leverage on it and it didn't move. I would refer you to my earlier posting regarding the length of time that this paddle had been broken . As a matter of interest, some years ago, at this same lock 9, the wooden Clayton tar boat Spey got stuck on the cill about half way out of the lock going uphill. The lock was draining away rapidly. One of the crew raced up to 10 and let as much water down as possible managing to re-float the boat. If it had not been for his heroics, the boat would almost certainly have broken in half as the stern 30ft or so would have been in mid air over the lock chamber. On that occasion, the paddle gear was working ok , but the tail cill and gates were leaking badly.( and still are, judging by Martin's photo) Bill

To paraphrase somebody or other, "They would say that wouldn't they?" What have they done to fix the disconnected ground paddle at Wade Lock in Uppermill? That only just makes a level with one paddle and the leakage out of the tail gates, it's been like that for at least a month. Oh , sorry, some "repairs" involve disconnecting the paddle from the rack as a solution. Another trick is putting limiting stops on some paddle racks so they can't be opened fully, the point of that is? Yes, I am a G.O.M., justifiably.

Here are a few facts concerning Lock 9W: The towpath side bottom gate paddle was stuck about 1/3 open, it's hydraulic but the gear was rotating freely ,ie not applying any pressure to the ram. Because the paddle was part open it was very difficult to get a level in the lock as the top ground paddles are relatively small and could not "keep up" with the loss from the stuck open paddle. The pound between 9 and 10 is quite short so while trying to fill the lock , the level in the pound drops quickly. The problem of the stuck paddle was reported to BW at Leeds last week, who said they would pass the message on to Grove Road local depot , hopefully to repair it. Two BW staff were seen on the towpath by lock 11 about half an hour before this sinking incident but they offered neither help nor advice about the problem at lock 9 to the two boats going down.( they didn't actually say anything to the boaters) I wasn't going to post on here , for fear of being accused of BW bashing, but in my opinion, BW are 95% responsible for this incident , but it's symptomatic of the situation on the HNC, Ashton & Peak Forest Canals- leaking gates, cills , difficult or non-working paddle gear, all could be put right with simple routine maintenance, but it isn't being done. Why? Political,I would say..... get the boaters complaining to their MPs or anyone who will listen and they might get more taxpayer's money to pay director's bonus' , with a bit extra finding its way into maintenance. A disgrace. Bill

It looks like a diaphragm type sludge pump, much used to pump out lock chambers, cess pits etc. The output is not very great but they are able to deal with "solids" better than most centrifugal pumps. One might use the latter to initially empty a lock chamber, then the diaphragm pump to keep it empty while work was ongoing.It wouldn't care about air getting in the suction, and is self-priming.The engine looks like a Petter AVA1 or PH1. ( Nice picture by the way!) Bill

I heard a story some years ago , that , for some reason, these boats were needed very urgently , they were delivered on time by H & L, but at a cost of £100k each ( 1970s)!!! We bought one of these , 35ft version with Lister ST1 for a lot less than 100K in 1993.It was brilliant.... as a workboat. Bill

"British Waterways" was used initially by the Docks & Inland Waterways Executive from 1948. D& IWE was abolished in about 1953(?), when BTC became "in charge".British Waterways Board was created in the 1962 Transport Act, when canals finally got separated from roads and railways. Some while ago, on this forum, Eugene Baston, formerly of BWB, pointed out in no uncertain terms that the BW pre 1962 was not the same BW post 1962, although ,of course, most of the staff were the very same. An interesting aside, that has recently come to light is that if you worked for British *Railways* pre 1962, you can get a substantial reduction in your boat license fee even now- not many people know that! I have pictures of our wooden motor, from 1950, 1955,and 1960.The paint scheme and signing is different on all three. The only common feature is "British Waterways" painted in big letters, not in an arc, but straight and no block shading. The 1955 picture has the BTC roundel ( a transfer) applied. The latest picture shows very poor sign writing, perhaps because the Canal depot and the canal was on the point of closure as indeed it was by 1962. Bill

It's a skimmer, a face shovel has the bucket on the end of a dipper arm, pivoted half way along the boom, much used in quarries even today. The skimmer is good for neatly graded slopes ( like bottom of canals) and making flat areas. I don't know if it's the same machine but there was one kitted out as a dragline operating IN the canal in the mid 70's When I played with that particular train set, the loco was kept in a very small shed on the towpath in the middle of nowhere, fun & games getting it started in cold weather, I think it had a Dorman engine. Bill

1961 I think, at home in the garden , a very loud and unusual sound from the railway 100 yards away. I ran down to the line to see an absolutely magnificent D9007 "Pinza" waiting at the signal. She was brand new on a delivery run from Vulcan Foundry at Newton le Willows to , presumably , Doncaster for BR. The driving cab was full of very proud BR and English Electric staff. A fortnight later, at the same location I saw D9009 "Alycidon" The boat horn we have is a Westinghouse unit from a vacuum braked only class 76 (EM1) scrapped at Reddish depot in the early 70's. It is both loud and pleasant sounding at 100psi, no "strangled cat" noise, more likely, "Deafened Gongoozler". English Electric eh? Lightning jet, class40's, Deltics, Blackpool tramcars,the fridge( 40 odd years old ) in my office , onetime owners of Kelvin Diesels, beautiful things- and so very er, English. Am I on a canal forum here, or what?........ Bill

Sorry about the late post, I watched the program this week-end, best telly I've seen for some time. Most of the derelict canal scenes were on the Ashton Canal, taken in the sixties in the Droylsden and Clayton areas. The locks were just about usable, with one exception in 1961, within a very few years the dereliction and neglect was surprising. Operation Ashton was an incredible event, as Dave says , it was the turning point which allowed major restorations using volunteers to be taken seriously. I was there, the sight of hundreds of people working in extreme filth in bad weather ( I think it rained all week-end), bonfires burning along the towpath, excavators and mobile cranes all working with one purpose. Something like 2000 tons of debris was removed from the canal over a length of 2 miles, the JCBs were still loading trucks for the Corporation tips the following Wednesday! The Ashtac event in March 1972 was a more organised encore. Restoration of the Ashton & Peak Forest had already been agreed and that week-end was to kick-start the clearance work and was with the full co-operation of BW ( absent at managerial level in 1968) I spent the week-end with a team clearing out Margaret Street bridge hole, using a WRG excavator and monorail tipping skips. Sadly , 39 years later, there's been no further digging done at that location. There must be some other forum members who were there? Perhaps don't want to admit it for reasons of age or something? Bill

That's a minor part of the problem, if the bottom gates/paddles/cills had been maintained properly, all that water wouldn't have leaked away.On most canals, if locks are left full, as in boats ascending a flight, it doesn't usually make any difference to the pounds ahead. One stuck paddle wouldn't normally be anything more than an slight inconvenience- but this this is the HNC so it turns into a drama. A few years ago we set off from Huddersfield to go to Marsden , about 2 hours behind another boat making the same trip. Every lock, with the exception of the new one in Huddersfield, was completely empty by the time we got there, its contents having leaked away. In many cases, the head gates and paddles were also leaking so even more water was being wasted. The situation on the west side of the canal is better, but there is a requirement for serious dredging, eg Greenfield area. I think it was this trip when compulsory "assistance " was given on the Marsden flight- several paddles were left open ( mistake?) by the official assistants. More water wasted. I have said it before on this forum, there seems to be a deliberate policy of discouraging boating on the HNC, by making navigation difficult, imposing unnecessary delays ( eg awkward or delayed tunnel passage times) and neglecting basic canal maintenance. Bill

The Champion D21 is short reach, will work ok for diesel Kelvin starting but not as good as the long reach K97f. All the long reach 18mm plugs are expensive-eg Champion D8 and Lodge(?) TME30. If you are really skint, get some 18mm taper thread plugs that were fitted in Ford cars not long ago. I managed to get a plug cleaner from RS Components a few years ago, think it was about £30 but it needs a high pressure air supply, does 10,14 and 18mm plugs very well. You have to make sure all the grit is out of the plug though. I mentioned the TME30 plug, this is designed to come apart so its very easy to clean , the centre porcelain comes separate from the metal body. The plugs in our Kelvin have to work all the time the engine is running, not just at starting, we had a long term problem with 2 out of 4 plugs fouling at frequent intervals, eventually we found it was the Lucas SR4 distributor cap was tracking , not obvious just looking at it, a replacement cap seems to have sorted that. Bill

If you are heading into Manchester, on a boat, from the east and you aren't coming from Rochdale I think it's very advisable, almost mandatory. I've been boating down that that way since 1974, sometimes several times a year and I'm still alive to tell the tale. All times of the day (& night), any day of the week. Any trouble you have will be down to BW's lack of a sensible maintenance regime. You might find an excess of Gongoozlers around Lock 5 if City are playing at home. Bill

I can't resist commenting on this thread any longer! Our 70ft boat originally had a Kelvin F2 petrol engine fitted. This, as Tom says is 15HP at around 800rpm. The engine, sterngear and prop were supplied by Kelvins in 1948. With that installation we ran the boat for some years- the speed and the reverse power were always satisfactory, at least on narrow canals, this was with the "fishing boat" style prop shown in Tom's first picture. The max RPM in reverse was always higher than in forward, probably up to 1000, stopping better than most boats. I suspect that the prop design has little to do with it, more likely ,it is the length of swim , about 18ft in this case . Later on we fitted an F4 (30/36hP,700rpm) and bigger prop, which is similar to the Crowther Kelvin style shown in the second picture,22.5 in by something. Again, this prop is fine, on reasonably deep water the boat will make 4mph at about 300rpm ( with either 4 or 2 cylinders working) and stopping is very good too. The reason for the bigger engine? The F2 was on its limits on tidal waters and when towing, the F4 takes almost* everything in its stride. Turbocharging? See if we can shoehorn an English Electric 16SVT into the engine room , that model features 4 turbos for 2000HP@750rpm and then we can laugh at the tiny K2s and 3s so beloved on here * Wyrd and BW banners in Nottingham excepted. Bill

Yes, it happened to a relative's boat too, about 15 years ago. Canal had been drained for work, all boats at the moorings sat on the bed of the canal for about a fortnight. When the stop planks were removed for re-filling, the level came up quickly and the boat in question (36ft steel) was at a slight angle and water flooded in through the air-cooled Lister engine vents in the side of the hull . The boat finished up with about 3ft of water in it. We pumped ALL the water out and she was still firmly held on the bed of the canal, no amount of jumping on the sides would shift her. We brought a dredger alongside and fastened the front T stud to the dredger boom and after about 10 minutes of rattling she came up like a cork. The engine/gearbox oil was drained and renewed, engine started ASAP. The vents on the side were later welded up and replaced by deck vents, noisier but more safe. Bill

The LNER also looked after their inherited canals with a steady program of dredging , towpath maintenance etc despite very low traffic levels after WW1. It wasn't until after nationalisation that things got really bad when the decision was made at HQ to cease expenditure on maintenance except for industrial water supply requirements, a very profitable side to canal use post war .It was noted that water sales to industrial users on the Ashton Canal made a major contribution to the upkeep of all the other canals in the North West area. Bill

Hi Tone, I'm in front of a computer, somewhere in Manchester, the Pinnace is at the side of the Ashton Canal . It arrived by road as it is about 8 ft wide. I'll try and get a few pictures at week-end,in the daylight. There's been some work done on it, decks and gunwhales replaced and part of the stempost has been removed for renewal. The hull is remarkably free of rot and consists of double diagonal planking fastened with copper roves( is that the right term?). Unfortunately due to neglect and time the hull has sagged somewhat where it is unsupported, but it may be that it would regain its shape if it was re-supported I don't know too much history, I seem to remember the date 1944 on the transom, along with the Admiralty up pointing arrow thing and a serial number. It was on the Bridgewater canal prior to it coming to the yard, I don't know if it was ever used then. There is no engine, in fact no internal fittings at all. I doubt it would make a good canal boat , but on bigger rivers it should be ok. Bill

Tony, In case you have a desire to turn the clock back.... The future of a naval pinnace at our yard is looking bad. It was under discussion only yesterday. Looks like it might be bonfire material by Nov. 5th. It has the Kitchen gear fitted and being out of the water it is easy to see how it works . I would imagine it is excellent for handling in the sea, hopeless on a canal- tyres and trolleys jammed up in it every 5 minutes. The phosphor bronze sterngear and thousands of copper rivets make demolition an attractive proposition. Unless you want to make us an offer?

We leased Fern for a while in late 1970's. The engine then was a JP2 and had been installed for many years. The boat had been a live aboard with full length cabin conversion, SF central heating and Ruston generator. The owner de-converted her but kept a short cabin extension forward of the engine room . In those days the hull was generally sound and we replaced about 20ft of elm bottoms. We carried loads up to about 11 tons ( the canal depth would not permit more in those days) and also used her as a tug for a passenger trip boat on the River Irwell. She was in reasonable condition but in need of a little TLC when we returned her to the owner who then came to some arrangement with the Boat Museum. Taken out of the water and left engineless at EP, the bottoms dried out and fell off. Good to see she's still about even if not in working trim.As I re-call, ther was no trace of a Bolinder remaining although, of course, she did have one when new in 1947(?). One of the last 3 boats built for FMC. Bill