Mr Lister
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Posts posted by Mr Lister
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On 10/01/2022 at 08:58, stagedamager said:
Where are you taking them for the work?
Keep an eye on the leading profile of the stem Post that you don't need to reprofile the stem iron.....
I have a piece of land next to the canal at Little Bourton that I intend to construct a Side slip and a possible undercover work space, it is basicly un-farmable land that the farmer has rented to me on a long term basis for the duration of both boats being over hauled and possibly to also be a base for both to operate from.
I have got a template of the line for the stem iron and have compaired it to the stem template I have made and some minor alterations are needed to the stem iron, notably its been welded back together at one point and its also badly bent in a couple of places, Lucky for me I know a very good blacksmith who can sort these out for me and also repair the other iron work.
I am also pleased to announce that plans are inplace to move Ariel and she will be recovered in three weeks time floated and moved to her mooring at Cropredy, behind Hesperus.
Mr L
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10 hours ago, stagedamager said:
As someone who is not totally up on these things, Ben, can you explain how you can make a stem post when the boat is not out of the water, and how you can make new knees if you intend to reprofile the lines of the bow without removal of the old planks and careful spiling to get the new shape?
Sure not a problem.
I have access to a piece of land next to the canal where the boats are able to be slipped in and out at will with a couple of tirfor winch blocks.
As for making new knees I have access to a near on original Little Ricky boat and have made hardboard templates of the knees for both bow and stern for the butty and I have managed to borrow an old original stem post to make a template from.
Thank you to everyone who has shared information im reading with interest.
Mr L
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13 minutes ago, agg221 said:
I will put some feelers out. Do you have means of transport?
A couple of points that may help.
I would take your dimensions for the planks more from what's there for primary width and a good look over a surviving bow and stern (Sirius and Arcturus?) if possible. My limited experience of Walkers is that planks were ultimately more based on what was available than to drawing - there are parts in the chine of Hagley where a strip was fixed in on top of the plank in places to bring it up to width, and having spoken to the son of one of the builders, they really weren't that precise (apparently they were half cut on beer a lot of the time!) The lengths would never have been pre-determined, planks being used at full length as they came from bow and stern and then cutting in the middle to fit. Hagley was a mix of 3 and 4 planks along the length, with a couple at 5 where they had used 15-20' planks in from each end and filled in the short bit in the middle. Milling seems to be simple through-and-through sawn, with cupping controlled by fixings and planing out at the end. I found it much easier to fit new planks over the old, leaving the new plank wide, than trying to template up that accurately. I did use templates to check planks were big enough but any plank with a twist as well as a bend throws the profile off. I cut my templates out of damp proof membrane as I could tack a length to the hull, feel where the plank edges were and slit it. I could then roll the templates up for storage (I still have them), writing any notes on with a permanent marker.
I wouldn't personally worry too much about trying to replicate original plank joint positions. You can afford to cut the bad fore end of a plank and leave the back part alone if it's still sound. This approach means you don't need so many long planks - what is important is to stagger the scarf joints over the knees so you wouldn't do this to all planks around the bow for example, but you could cut 12' out of one and 20' out of the ones above and below with no problems. It would be good to have a 25' plank on each corner, but more than that isn't essential. Bending in much under 12' is difficult. This approach gives you the shape and is more about repair, restoration and conservation (retention of original material where possible) rather than trying to replicate something which is largely conjectural anyway. In similar vein, it doesn't look so nice but if the top part of the sides and shearing are both sound then it is possible to cut the shearing across a panel in a horizontal line and only replace part of it. Trying to replace a plank without replacing the shearing behind it is doomed though - the shearing always breaks.
I wouldn't worry too much about seasoning for planks below the water line. In theory to achieve air dry you need six months per inch of thickness, so a year for a hull planks, but in practice if it goes in wetter than that, it won't shrink while it's in the water!
This time of year is a good point to get milling done. Being cold and damp the surface of the timber doesn't dry faster than water can migrate out from the centre, so the surface doesn't start to shrink before the middle, resulting in cracks. Do you have a source for milling the timber you have access to? If not I know a few - whereabouts in the country do you need the mill?
I would strongly suggest that you have a look at your source for oak and look through the shorter lengths for curves for knees, cabin frames and shearing. Making shearing is extremely boring - you don't want to be paying a high rate for it so it's worth considering separating that job out to someone with fast equipment (bandsaw) and a lower skilled hourly rate. In my case, the hourly rate was the same as I milled all the timber.
Have you got the timber for the stem and stern posts? Stern post is as I recall pretty straight but the stem post has a distinctive curve - I might have a piece that would make one (it has the necessary lump on the top for the return). Not sure what condition it's in but if needed I can have a look. You need a good idea of the bow shape, including in plan, before starting on the posts. It makes a surprising difference to the piece of timber you need.
Are you doing any of the work or are you having it all done? If you are doing any yourself then happy to comment on tools and sundry materials, or anything else that may be useful (so long as I'm not boring you!)
Alec
Thanks for the reply Alec.
I unfortunately do not have transport however I can get that arranged without much bother.
As to your comment on the work being done, I am doing all the work including milling all timber, myself, apart from the hull planking, aboard my 38ft BWB work flat boat, that I also liveaboard, I have a very large and very old bandsaw that I belt drive from a Lister SR2, I also have a large table saw driven from, guess what, another Lister SR2 engine, Both I rebuilt a couple of years ago, I am hoping to make everything for the pair myself, With advice given along the way since this is a learning process as well since this these are my first wooden pair, I have riveted a bow before, tiring hard labour I can tell you that, Any advice on tools is welcome, I have a good supplier for oakum and felt to go behind the shearing, I am planning these rebuilds to take five to eight years each and doing one at a time to help with the costs.
Differently not boring me at all, I am extremely keen to learn of the ideas and uses in these boats to try and keep them going.
Mr Lister
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1 minute ago, agg221 said:
That is excellent news (not the bit about the batteries being stolen).
I have a particular interest in wooden boats, having co-owned and personally rebuilt large parts of Hagley and Samson, so I am well aware of the challenges involved. A personal hobby horse is that wooden boats should be recognised for their specific combination of heritage value and the complexity and cost of retaining them, with some specific terms applying as a consequence, but I am also well aware that my opinion doesn't count for anything on that point.
If you need sources for oak, do let me know as I may be able to help (through my own experience I am aware of some sympathetic sources).
On a related point, have you spotted the diesel tanks from GUCCC Epsom for sale? Town Class rather than Star Class, but potentially relevant.
Alec
At present I am having a little difficulty sourcing oak in the lengths needed for Hesperus ranging from 25 feet long up to 35 feet long.
I can secure oak up to 20 foot in length but it needs planking and seasoning, since it was recently felled, I am trying to work to a basic drawing found in the Walkers book for the dimensions of the planks, I am also working from David Blagrove's book, "Waterways of Northampton", to gauge the proportions of the boats and redo Hesperus's stern as it is currently the wrong shape along with her bow, It looks like it was rebuilt previously and I also have information that, "KeelKast", did work on the boat in the past as Hesperus's current bow shape does not resemble a Little Rickey at present in my opinion.
Mr Lister
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3 hours ago, stagedamager said:
The latest word on the street is CRT are looking to break up the Ariel and retain the metalwork....... has anyone heard anything?
I can quite happily reassure you that CRT are not planning to "Break up" Ariel. That is just another unfortunate rumour in circulation at the moment.
I shall dispel a few of those rumours soon.
Ariel is moored at long Buckby VM moorings where she unfortunately sank after a someone stole the bilge pump battery's from the bow and stern, while I was dealing with Hesperus at the drydock.
Ariel is due in drydock soon where she will undergo a complete inspection and a long term plan drawn up for her overhaul, Hesperus, Is having new Bow knees made along with a stem post and I am currently sourcing the oak for the planking for the bow on her.
Mr Lister
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"Hesperus" In the drydock.
Emptied and washed Hesperus out of all the mud and rubbish that was dumped in her over the years, Removed the Ruston 2VSH engine, and shes now beginning to look like a boat again.
Hesperus has had her Counter block reattached and the bow has been "sureed up" the bow as that's at risk of breaking off as the stem post is at risk of becoming detached, the bow planks are beyond rotten, the rot has been hidden behind the ice plating on the bow, and all require replacement, I have been able to get a good source of timber and will be putting Hesperus back in the dock next year for the bow to be rebuilt along with seven bottom planks as these have huge holes right out the bottom of the boat.
I shall let the photos doo the rest of the telling now.
All from Me on this post hope you enjoy the photos.
MR L
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Good morning Gents.
Hesperus is now afloat and will be drydocked on Thursday to Saturday for emergency repairs to the planking behind the knees as she is unfortunately leaking like a river where she has constantly been raised and sunk and repeat.
Anyone is welcome to come and see her in drydock please PM me for dates and times since the location I am using does not wish to be floaded with visitors.
Cheers
MR L
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16 minutes ago, agg221 said:
I can't see the photos but it sounds like it's all good.
I had to retrieve the 'ellum for Hagley from the Basingstoke. It was a similar challenge to get the right one, but we got lucky as someone remembered which one was.
Alec
Thats unfortunate no one can see those links, That's fortunate someone remembered which one it was, Still struggling to find drawings for both boats but it looks like I might have been able to source a suitable engine for Hesperus now
Hopefully these photo links will work for some photos of Ariel as she stands at the moment.
MR L
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Hopefuly these photo links of Ariel will work.
MR L
https://photos.app.goo.gl/gTAkNT5LVR6Jx4rG9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/R7HTTUhXrSoRKPdh8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rdDQp3pfppyzM5sz5
https://photos.app.goo.gl/t5yR4BZGXwHwgcxT8
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On 11/10/2021 at 10:30, Stroudwater1 said:
Looks like Ariel has been moved hopefully to pastures new. Great to hear your plans
On 11/10/2021 at 10:51, Alan de Enfield said:Maybe moved 'vertically downwards' ?
Ariel has been moved to a new location for repairs to be undertaken, as for the ellum, that is not Ariels original from what I understand the ellum that is with Ariel belonged to another butty but it was in worse state then Ariels at the time so they were exchanged, there is a large amount of equipment and Irons that are going to be recovered and reused for the overhaul, I am picking these up when Hesperus is refloated and moved from Cropredy on the Oxford canal up to the base for the overhaul.
MR L
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1 minute ago, IanM said:
Thought it might be. I remember talk on here several years ago that in needed a new counter block and when I last saw it in 2016 in had a new one fitted and things looked to be progressing but obviously not much else happened.
In all fairness to the previous owner the repetitive sink and raise routine ended up getting a little bit tedious and I believe that he eventually gave up and lost interest over time and Hesperus sadly sank again recently before I made the offer of taking both the butty, Ariel, and the motor Hesperus, On as a long term project as a custodian of both, I have the space and the funding to do both up back to original working condition rather then converted, Since I personally do not believe that converted wooded boats age at all well in that state however I stand to be corrected, In the future, once restoration is complete, I intend to move onto Hesperus in the long term, after all I have a rebuilt HRW3 Lister to go in her and it would be a shame to let it go to waste.
MR L
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7 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:
Is your butty a wooden ( ricky) or composite woolwich boat. ( you refer to iron footings.
I have the woolwich star class butty drawings somewhere.
The butty is a wooden small ricky Star class boat. Iron footings bolted through the planks from what I can see.
Cheers
MR L
3 minutes ago, IanM said:Would the motor be Hesperus?
No reason for asking other than geeky curiosity 🙂
As it happens the motor is Hesperus, In rather sorry state at present.
Cheers
MR L
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Good evening gents, I have recently become the custodian of a pair of wooden narrowboats, A pair of small Ricky boats to be exact, a motor and a butty.
I am looking at restoring both to complete carrying states and I am currently searching for any of the walkers drawings for these boats, I was hoping Laurence Hoggs website might have been some help but after finding out about his very sudden passing in 2018 it seams that the drawings that were available on his site are long unobtainable, Would anyone out there have a complete set of drawings for both the motor and the butty that they would be willing to share or even better be willing to let myself have a copy off them for a small fee?
And now as some will know the butty is going to require more work then the motor since the elm bottoms are completely worn away in place but the iron footings are in relatively good condition and in my view do not need replacing, However, There are holes in the bottom being filled and sealed with plumbers mate at present and a bow and stern bilge pump pumping her out every hour or so, These planks certainly need replacing and the funds are there to facilitate this but finding a drydock to carryout this work is becoming harder and harder to locate.
Now the motor boat equally needs work, I am docking both boats soon and the motor has had a new counter block fitted at some point after it split when it was dragged up onto a slipway and has such not been bored to size nor had a stern tube fitted however the required items are onboard awaiting to be fitted including the prop, Unfortunately the engine that was fitted is not included in the sale of the boats being incredibly rare on its own, A Ruston Hornsby 2VSH, I have in my collection a Lister HRW3 that is pretty much ready to fit, However, I would like to fit an original Blackstone 2G 2.1 reduction gearbox to the engine if anyone knows of one available for sale I am willing to pay good money even if I end up having to overhaul it which isn't much bother for me.
If anyone can assist with the above I would highly appreciate it, even negative advice helps.
Cheers for your help gents.
MR L
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Evening gents.
I have an old 1974 38-ft long ex-BWB workboat.
Its got a Lister ST2 fitted to it with the Lister LH150 gearbox and the 2.1 reduction box, I rebuilt it about several years ago, however it has never really had the "poke" or power it really ought to have, even before the overhaul.
I feel that both the engine and the boat may benefit from a larger propeller, it currently has a tiny egg whisk of a prop around 16x12 LH.
The engine does sound like its working with this prop fitted but I'd be interested to find out what it would make with a larger prop.
A few people I have spoken to including T norris in Isleworth, have all said that 16x12 is what they would quote for this engine and gearbox setup, however my gut feeling is that a 19x10 would possibly provide a bit more "Push" with less heavy reving of the engine.
What also crosses my mind is that this is an air cooled engine and it doesn't seem to even pump hot air out the air exhaust, there is warm air there but not to the extent I would expect to see, perhaps the engine isn't working hard enough, I know these listers like to work hard.
Thoughts and ideas would be welcome.
MR L
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Speaking from experience, PRM 150 hydraulic gearboxs tend to leak from the output flange oil seal, it is commonly seen when the engine is out of alignment to the prop shaft or if the engine mounts are "on the way" as it were, the extra movement from the engine itself during operations could pull the shaft and flange out of alignment.
Its a simple seal to replace but it would be a good idea to have the engine alignment checked before and after the seal is done.
It would also be worth noting that oil additives that can be bought, most commonly "Stop leaks" formally know as, seal swell component additives will damage the internal clutch plates of the box since the hydraulic pump that pumps oil into the hydraulic clutches to engage forward or reverse gears will destroy the component compound and eventually block up the internal oil passages.
I have known these boxes to also leak from the input shaft oil seal but its rare, since this shaft is not only supported by two internal thrust roller bearings, its also got the drive plate from the engine to absorb shocks and in the end the drive plate breaks before the box providing a fail safe and avoid damaging the box internally.
As for the gear shifter oil seals, these when fitted normally need to be greased with high temperature grease when fitting the seal and the shaft, this grease helps fitment and also prevents damage when fitting the shaft as fitting dry rubber seals can crack and even chip if installed incorrectly in the housing.
Same goes for the input and output shaft seals.
Mr L
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Walkers of Rickmans worth "Small ricky" drawings
in Boat Building & Maintenance
Posted
Fingers crossed.
Good planning is in place and a large amount of research and detail is being done to ensure accurate restorations are done.
Mr L