Joseph

Hi Ray You make an excellent point. It would be helpful to know what specific waterways records remain in private hands - and whether they are secure in such hands. I read somewhere (I think it was a letter from Peter lead) that many Trent & Mersey records were systematically burnt just before nationalisation - rather like what happened to many private mining records on the eve of nationalisation. As a consequence of the latter, people probably died, when old flooded workings, records of whose existence had been destroyed, were cut into. Anecdotally, I recall from my researches into Charles Hadfield's work that the records of the Tennant Canal in Wales were still in private hands. He also found that there were significant letters, related to the Caledonian Canal, whose private owner would not (then) permit to be viewed. These are only anecdotal but it would be useful to have a list of what is privately kept and (frankly) whether these records are in any way accessible and if they are secure. By secure I mean not just from theft but with some clear guidance as to what should happen should their owner expire. I would be very interested to learn what anyone else thinks. Joseph

Oh dear! I only put this up as a minor amusement, not a firm proposal or advocated policy. Actually, if the C&RT model does prove to be successful (I'm uncertain, but fingers crossed) then it would be logical for waterways to be handed to the Trust, hopefully with a nice big endowment. If the Trust gets the expertise and can gather in the commitment of enthusiasts (not all volunteers), develop responsive management and draw in finance, then this could and should be applied, surely? Or do we prefer waterways to be run by small bodies that (sadly) lack expertise and commitment? No names, but there are some! Lots of Ifs, but you never know..... Can I add something to the list - how about the parts of the Crumlin Branch owned by Caerphilly Borough Council? Just for fun. Joseph

After all that you hear against people on Merseyside and young people in particular, I was glad to see this publicised. Well done that teenager. Joseph (from the quieter side of the Mersey)

Hello If I've put anything useful on this site, do feel free to use it. Perhaps an acknowledgement would be worthwhile? Looking forward to the updated site. Regards Joseph

I agree with Derek's last paragraph. It is better to be constructive about C&RT staff, who might feel that they spend enough of their working lives dealing with waterways, and do not seek to spend too much of their leisure time thereon as well. However, I agree also that some of the comments could make you weep.... I recall one of the more enthusiastic BW engineers (now sadly deceased) who attended a waterways event in his own time, being the butt of a lot of moaning, and him protesting gently, "look, I come to events like this to enjoy myself". Quite so. Very glad to see the new C&RT CEO is actually out seeing waterways; I hope that in his previous employment one of his first activities was (for instance) to travel the whole of the Underground system from end to end. There is nothing quite like seeing for yourself, like writing the history of a waterway and visiting the whole line from end to end. Charles Hadfield told me the name of the only major canal in the British Isles that he had not seen!! I'm afraid that the assumption that all C&RT staff MUST be enthusiasts cannot be made, but let's try to enlarge that potential enthusiasm if at all possible. An enjoyable and welcoming event in leisure time - why not? And maybe an enjoyable/educational event in work time? Maybe some of us can help dismiss some of the "pop history" that is lurking around and point to some of the real history, which is often a lot more interesting than the "heritage" waffle. Well done Mr Hogg for doing all that in one day! J

hello everyone and Happy Easter. Just to let people know that my researches on Norman Anglin and Russian progressed to an article ion the Waterways Journal, which has just been published. I would like to thank everyone here who helped with this; amazing that one can go from an obscure reference o a long article. If anyone gets a copy and finds anything more about this character - there is much unanswered - I would be very interested in learning this. It's great to see pieces created by the bringing together of scattered bits of information, without which there would be much missing. This isn't an April Fool, btw, its the afternoon! And I'm not advertising - the WJ is produced pro bono and I don't get a penny for it. But it is a good journal; some excellent contributions over the years. Take care Joseph

Very many thanks Laurence and Ian Canal World Discussion Forum members do it again! I thought it might be John Jinks - I went to a memorial event for him at the Boat Museum around 1996, and I've seen the film of him moving a boat on the Trent & Mersey near Marston, and the final shot in the it is uncannily close. Definitely the hairstyle is similar, and I don't suppose many other young boatmen (were there many?) had the same style. If this is him, he would be 23 at the time, and the only thing that made me hesitate is whether this gent looks as young as that. I suppose that 8 years working since school, all in the open air, would make you look a little older than you were. I wonder if his family (there were several at the memorial event) have seen the Golden Age film? Ian, I'll look through the film for you at Dungebooth. Many thanks again. Joseph

Thanks for that. The film was still up this evening. If anyone wants to see what I looked like at the age of 7 (cringe....),and what I looked like 49 years later, I'm featured a number of times. I was also on the later one about the Golden Age of Steam briefly. I do have one long-shot query that maybe someone might be able to answer. At 29:32 and 29:43 there is film, taken by Dad in August 1963, of a boat from the BW NW fleet passing upstream at Barbridge. There's a clear view of the steerer. Is there anyone, by any remote chance, who could identify who this person is? I suppose it's just possible this person is still alive and might even have recognised himself.... You never know, maybe someone has a fantastic memory! Even a guess would be great. Take care, everyone Joseph

Very many thanks. It never seems to fail that a query here finds a helpful answer - very good to know that people are willing to help. If I can help with details in the future, I certainly will! Regards Joseph B

Hello everyone And Happy New Year! Some may recall queries about Norman Anglin, who travelled waterways in the late 1920s on the converted Shropshire Union boat Russian. I have found out a fair amount about Mr Anglin and his voyages on Russian - something that he wrote about for a national newspaper. In one article, he refers to Russian passing the Jean, near Stone, in October 1928. Jean was traveeling from Coventry to Manchester, and i have assumed that this was a Cowburn & Cowpar boat. This surmise is unconfirmed, sadly, as I have seen a list of C&C boats from the 1930s and Jean is not amongst them. Has anyone any information that could shed light on the Jean? I would prefer not to leave my surmise as a surmise! As ever, I would be grateful for any assistance. Regards Joseph B

Hello everyone! Slightly OT, but... Max Sinclair's posting contained this: "Can I drag you all away from canals, just been advised The Golden Age of Steam Railways Programme 1 Small is beautiful Mon. 10th Dec 9pm BBC FOUR Programme 2 Branching out Mon. 17th Dec. BBC FOUR This follows the canal series" I was in the canal programme and should be in the first of these. Was interviewed at Tywyn, on the Talyllyn, sitting on a pile of railway sleepers! talking about Tom Rolt and other matters. This is not an advert - I don't get paid when it appears! Hope you enjoy it Joseph P.S. Great photos and comments, bringing back a lot of memories. What happened to Ray Thomas - is he still with us?

How about two canals on Scottish Islands? The latest discerned seems to be one on South Uist, from the thirteenth century or earlier. Followers of the Waterways History Research Group may have read about this very recently. If only the C&RT extended to Scotland, this could be one for them, eh? Can think of some more, but will come back to this. Joseph

Steady on, everyone!! I did say it was only for fun. I'm not sure if I would be in favour if any new transfers were mooted. Just wondered what could go on a fantasy list. And maybe some of that could become real if C&RT proves to be good at managing its waterways and resourced to take on more. My understanding is that for all the waterways for which the EA is navigation authority (Anglian, Medway, Thames), those navigation functions are going to C&RT from 2015. Other functions of rivers will stay with the EA, as is the case with the Severn or the Weaver at present. Continuing the fantasy, I suppose one would hope to add all sorts of waterways that are under restoration. And one might add to the list others whose present managers might wish to trasnfer these to a larger body. So here's a couple more: 11. Grand Western Canal (Devon CC part). 12. Market Weighton Canal. 13. Driffield Navigation. Sorry, wasn't remotely trying to start any sort of controversy. Just something to ponder. Cheers Joseph

Hello everyone Not sure if this should be in the News section, as it is more in the nature of a speculation. Or even a new parlour game! It goes like this. Suppose C&RT had substantial resources and could indeed act like a National Trust for the waterways. Like the NT, it could take over properties and interests with or without endowment, or indeed by bidding. This seems unlikely in the present financial circumtsnances, but it could happen. After all, the real NT took over the Wey in the 1960s. And the Stratford............... So, partly for fun, what waterways should it (ideally) take, and what are the priorities? Here are my suggestions: 1. The Bridgewater Canal. Obvious link between several C&RT waterways. 2. The Wey. Leads off "its" river the Thames. 3. The Basingstoke. Leads off the Wey. 4. The Foss. Seems isolated, hardly used. York City Council might unload. 5. The lower Trent. Links the Chesterfield, Fossdyke etc. 6. The (developing?) Fens Waterway Link. Not sure what is happening with this. 7. The Cam. Expensive! 8. The Middle Level waterways. Another link. 9. The Lincolnshire fens. Or are they coming anyway? 10. Neath and Tennant Canals. Being restored slowly, and they are linked. And some "choking on cornflakes" suggestions: 1. The Warwickshire Avon. 2. Chelmer & Blackwater Navigation. What would IWA think? 3. The Broads................! Well, following that last one I had better leave swiftly! Just for fun, what would people add, or subtract? Bye for now Joseph

Many thanks Mike. This helpful information seems to be narrowing down the possible dates; seemingly, much of the remaining length was filled in at some point between August 1969 and 1975. I'm puzzled that there was no protest about this. And was it used extensively for moorings before 1969? Someone must know. Any thoughts, anyone else? I would be most grateful for any assistance. Joseph

Hello everyone An obscure query that the "completist" is me would like to answer. Hopefully there are some completists out there who would also like to know! I am writing about the later days of the Bradford Canal. Most of this was closed in 1922, but the section up to and including Windhill Lock was left open, as a basin off the Leeds & Liverpool Canal. This was transferred to the Bradford Dyers Association in 1923; the canal above Windhill was filled in to provide road access to the BDA works, and Windhill Lock converted to form an unloading point for coal. The Ordnance Survey appears to show this installation as complete in 1934, and I have seen somewhere a photograph from 1930, with the installation in use. What I am wondering is when it fell out of use. By 1958 the lower pound was in use for pleasure boat moorings only, and I saw it in 1969, intact. The railway bridge by the junction was later filled in, as was the canal to Windhill Lock remains, leaving a short winding hole at the Leeds & Liverpool junction. Has anyone any clues as to; 1. When the BDA traffic ceased and when the unloading equipment was dismantled? and 2. When the moorings were abandoned and the canal filled in beyond the railway bridge? Neither of these questions is desperately important, but it would be good to focus on clearer dates. Any thoughts, anyone? I would be most grateful for any assistance. Joseph

Are you kidding us, Sir? Sounds like a startling revelation. Incidentally, Ron Hough is the last of his kind, but I think that he was already the only one left when Tony Lewery published Flowers Afloat in 1996. Who was the second to last? Joseph

Derek, many thanks I have found Sentinel in Mr Thomas' records - it seems to have been working in 1928, so perhaps Mr Willans accompanied a working trip rather than used the boat for pleasure. As 1927 seems to have been the date when Sentinel was completed, maybe the recollected date of 1925 and earlier is wrong. This is surprising, because you can often date something from childhood by reference to the age you were, whereas later in life it is hard to be so specific. I can only cite haste as an excuse for getting Ever Watchful's name wrong (where did Fear Not come from?). This appears in Mr Thomas' records too - as a butty to Sentinel that was newly built by Taylors. I have amended my first posting but could not find out how to alter the title. This clears up part of the mystery. Does anyone know what happened to these two boats, whose owner was given in 1927 as G Payne Crofts of Northampton? Could they be the two that Kyrle Willans proposed to convert in 1930, or am I over-speculating? Any further comments would be very welcome. Joseph

Good morning everyone Earlier this week I was shown a letter in the Boat Museum archives from the late Bill Willans, cousin of Tom Rolt and son of Kyrle Willans. In this he mentions that his first pleasure boat trip was on the steam-powered Sentinel, from Chester to Ellesmere Port, and then in 1925 he went on a trip from Chester to Nuneaton in Sentinel and its butty Ever Watchful. It seems an obvious surmise that these boats belonged to his father Kyrle, who would later acquire and convert Cressy, although whereabouts it ould be moored in Chester (Taylors, perhaps) is unclear. Bill Willans was slightly younger than Tom (who was born in 1910) and so would have been in early teenage years at the time. I am aware that by 1930 Kyrle Willans owned three narrow boats, which he proposed to convert and let for hire, although this proved abortive. Sentinel looks like his naming, as he had worked for Sentinel; Ever Watchful also sounds like his naming. Just wondering if anyone has heard of these boats and what might have happened to them? I recall people being extraordinarily helpful over the question of early conversions (could one of these two been the "third boat"??), and I would be grateful for any information that might add to the fragments of history about early pleasure boats. Hope it rings some bells with someone somewhere! Joseph

Hi Well, I'm in it, partly courtesy of the "British Canals: The Standard History" book, and partly because my late Dad took cine films of a holiday in 1963 (inter alia). I have been filmed on the Shropshire Union Canal, and interviewed for hours and hours. The producer has certainly tracked down all sorts of people, and a lot of enthusiast film that (like Dad's) has never been seen before. Hope it will be worth it! Fingers crossed. Joseph

Hello everyone An idle query, and I'm not sure if I should post it here, as it is about pleasure boats. A very helpful set of replies to my posting about Norman Anglin, so you never know. Well... My late father started boating in the 1960s, and bought a boat called Peel Castle from Nantwich, in 1965. This was a wooden boat, two cabins and outboard, built by (45-year old memory from childhood here!!) L G Allbutt from the Derby area. I think that he sold it in 1967, and it left Nantwich. There was a similar boat, Kimrick, also moored at Nantwich, for a longer period, and we once saw another Allbutt (?) boat, but that is all that I recall. No doubt a marine ply boat has long since gone to its watery grave, but I just wondered if this boat and especially Allbutt boats rang any bells with anyone? Fascinated if anyone has any idea about this. I have probably been looking in the wrong places in my idle search. Take care, everyone Joseph

Agreed, there is a lot of spin. It is just me, or is this consultation the first to slip in the proposal that BW's responsibility to maintain the Commercial Waterways for freight will NOT transfer? In other words, bar the Aire & Calder for the next few years, there will be no traffic on BW waterways? The assertions about the barriers to traffic are damning, and there will clearly be noone employed to deal with traffic queries, and no representation of surviving carriers and users. Great. I'm getting more and more doubtful about this new body. Looking after the amenity waterways may well be all it can do, with the government grant dropping every year with inflation. Volunteers - I'm one myself - usually involve a floating personnel, often arouse conflict, and are best when there is an identifiable place (like the NT houses, and museums. David Hutchings is a hero to many on the waterways, but he asserted that the Stratford restoration could not have been carried out without non-volunteers - prisoners mainly. With volunteers required in all sorts of new fields by this government, I wonder. Just hope I'm wrong!! J

Good Lord..... As Bernard Bresslaw used to say, I only arsked! Delighted to have provoked so many replies. In my feeble mind I assumed that conversions had ended long ago, not that they were still going on. The philosophy/ethics behind this, and indeed de-conversions, are interesting, to say the least. I am tempted to ask when was the first de-conversion, but maybe another thread for that!! Many thanks, everyone Joseph

Good Lord! I didn't think this would raise so many replies. Or that the question would be so complex. I had no idea that conversions were still taking place. Derek, not sure if your query is directed at me. It is mostly an idle query, but appeals to the completist that perhaps lurks in all of us. All the best, everyone Joseph

I've been asking about the earliest narrow boat conversions, and my curiosity has begun to extend forward in time. Has anyone any idea which has been the last (or perhaps latest) conversion? One could define "conversion" as taking an unaltered working boat and putting permanent cabins on for pleasure use, rather than use as camping boats or the replacement of earlier attempts at conversion. My suspicion is that the narrow boat hull on the Johnsons traffics in the Poteries, taken out of service about 1986, and later converted, could be a candidate. Has anyone any ideas? The other one, while I am in pedantic mode, is when and which was the first "de-conversion". Obviously there are now several boats. I suppose the removal of minor adaptations would disqualify. Any thoughts, anyone? Happy New Year Joseph