Joseph

Many thanks Jubbly I had seen the film, and Mr and Mrs Knight had featured greatly. They contributed a great deal. And then......?? Do you mean that they parted company? I've found reference to them installing lock gates on the Stratford in February 1964, and at the Stratford Canal reopening, but Mr Knight left the Midlands Branch Committee in December 1964 (along with David Hutchings), and I have not traced any reference to him in the Midlands Branch Navigation in 1965-6. As an aside, I was just wondering whether there are other sound recordings of Robert Aickman and Lionel Munk. RFA had a very mannered, posh accent, but came across as quite mild. Any further thoughts as to the fate of the Knights would be very welcome. Thanks again Joseph

Good morning again! I'm trying to find out a bit of background to Brian and Rosemary Knight of Coventry, who were leading members in the IWA Midlands Branch in the 1960s. They were involved with the Ashton Canal cruise in Bruce, and other protest cruises, and helped out heavily in the Stratford restoration, fitting many lock gates. In many ways, they seem to have been unsung heroes. Does anyone know more about their later involvement with canals, and what happened to them? All information gratefully received! Joseph

Good morning all Oh dear - I suspect this note was penned in haste....!! I volunteer at the Archive - it has only been safe to reopen for volunteers for the last two weeks. We now have an excellent new Archivist, but a smaller number of volunteers able to help. I'm not sure when normal service will be resumed - but, at the moment, fairly heroic efforts are needed. May I encourage everyone to have a look at the online photographic archives - some of the descriptions could do with clarification. I spent a lot of time in lockdown going through some of these - but often one needs an intimate knowledge of a particular place (or person or boat) to be able to comment. It would be great if people could help - it will improve what is a major resource. Best wishes Joseph

Evening Ray Well, I would need very substantial travelling expenses! There are two copies of Pick's report - one a draft, which is interesting. Regards Joseph

Evenin' all This is a complex question - but Patrick has it absolutely right over the Swansea and Neath; one was railway-owned, the other wasn't. Control of the former railway canals in South Wales (none with any significant traffic) was with the Railway Executive at first, then passed to the control of South Wales Docks until 1958. My understanding is that nationalisation concerned companies that were under wartime control, and one would need to look at the Pick Report for that. The Rochdale had no traffic outside the Manchester area by 1945, and Pick had recommended closure. There were some reconstruction works in wartime, but no traffic resulted. I think that the Ship canal Company was regarded as a dock system, with the Bridgewater something of a feeder, and there was no general nationalisation of dock and ports under the 1947 Act. The railway-owned canals passed to the DIWE because nationalisation was based on the taking over of companies, and that included railway companies that owned all sorts of assets that had very little to do with railway operations! In an alternative world, had there been no existing controls like those of wartime, and had the 1945 Government formed a public corporation that would take over the assets that it felt it could develop (as happened with road haulage to some extent), it is likely that most of the waterways would not have been taken over - certainly Pick saw no future for narrow canals. So there wouldn't be a system at all, just a number or inland navigations based on rivers and ports, and any question for keeping waterways for leisure would not have arisen - the smaller waterways would not have been in public ownership. Luckily for the waterways, the 1945 government was keen to pursue nationalisation, and the easiest and quickest way to achieve this was to continue wartime control and take over almost all waterways-owning companies. My understanding, anyway. Heartland, thanks for a very useful list. There must be some more to add, but bar the Weaver to Frodsham (no authority!), I can't think of any. Hope this is of interest. Stay safe everyone! Joseph

Evenin' all I contributed to the Golden Age film - I did comment on the script, although naturally the film-maker followed his own view! Ignoring my own bit, I did enjoy the film visually without following the whole narrative. There was a two-part Golden Age of Steam follow-up, which seems to have been much less shown. I contributed to the first of these, at Tywyn. Some puzzling comments about the involvement of volunteers, something that we keep hearing about - I tend to agree with Rose and Fanshaft on this, but will resist the temptation to go on and on about this and other points raised! Unless people would like me to...... Barbara Castle was indeed a canal enthusiast in her own way - and she certainly related how the Treasury wanted to save some public money by closing any waterways that would have been more financially viable if they were water channeled or eliminated. She resisted this partly because she was a Blackburn MP, and because she had been on canal holidays! Had someone else been Minister, like her predecessor, the former Scottish mineworker Tom Fraser, it is likely that the Treasury view would have prevailed. Sometimes, just sometimes, it matters exactly who is in the right place at the right time. (Sometimes, it is pretty irrelevant, but not here). A lot of points raised here, but I'll leave it there for now. Stay safe, everyone Joseph

Many thanks Mike Is Alan Snowdon still with us? Regards Joseph

Fascinating I'm no expert, but it was very well filmed, given that the boat was moving all the time and so nothing could be staged. A lot of interesting detail; very glad to see that it has been recorded. Just wondering who is/was Alan, who recorded much of the film? I assume that it is Mr Nicoll at the tiller, but who are the others with him? And who is the commentator? Happy New Year J

Hello everyone Great film - a nice piece of documentary. Just wondering - would "another deceased well know narrow boat historian laid claim to photo’s and films that weren’t theirs in the first place. Anecdotal evidence of course." be a gent who was involved in editing waterways magazines? Happy New Year! J

Good morning! Fascinating stuff - I've never photos of powered boats in the Backs, and Llantysilio was accessed as late as 1975! Anyone know of a more recent visit than 1975? Many thanks Joseph

Thanks David i thought as much about the Backs - never seen anything but punts and rowing bats there. I do wonder if this provides a model over very limited stretches - so that the horse-drawn boats would have possession of the section to Llantysilio, but small powered boats allowed up on special occasions? I do think that, while all this could be very difficult, a free-for-all would not work here (or Cambridge) - it would just drive out the horse-drawn boats and punts respectively. Similarly, with great sensitivity, it might be necessary to limit some towpath uses in some places, in the same way as mooring is not permitted in various places. However, I wouldn't like to be the person who organises change in this sort of direction........! Regards Joseph

Hi tree monkey (and everyone) I wasn't thinking that the restrictions were placed specially to favour the horse-boats, but they do mean that there is less conflict over that section over which they operate. It would be drastic to take a section which is generally available for boating, and to then ban all but horse boats, but at least this length is one in which the horse-boats can operate unobstructed. It's an inadvertent solution, although some might dispute the nature of the problem! Just wondering if people are aware of any other sections (besides Llangollen, Cambridge Backs, isolated bits of the Yorkshire Derwent...?) over which powered navigation is banned? I've found, by coincidence, notes on an oral history interview in which the late Martin Grundy informed me that the Heron went up to the end of the canal when there were just sandbags there (1946), as the Valve house had not been built. It would be very interesting to know when the last boat went up - and when this gravel bank was put in. Stay safe everyone! Joseph

Fascinating, many thanks. I suppose keeping other boats out provides one way of ensuring that the horse-drawn boats can continue unobstructed, although it does seem a shame that the odd (shallow-draught) boat could not be allowed up to Llantysilio on special occasions. I'm not sure if the horse-drawn boats ever go to the Valve House - they did in the twentieth century. Joseph

Indeed, quite so. I can feel another thread coming on - bits of waterway where powered boats are prohibited or inhibited...... I have met people who have navigated through to the end at Llantysilio, by the Valve House - 1960s, I think? Does anyone know when the last such voyage took place? Best wishes Joseph

Hm, I think I should join in! My Top Ten - a very personal list, in rough order of preference: 1. Hatherton branch 2. Sankey (as much as feasible) 3. Lichfield 4. Finish the "Montgomery" 5. Newport and Shrewsbury - will have to find parts of this first! 6. Newry Canal 7. Finish the Chesterfield 8. Swansea, Neath and Tennant (connecting these up) 9. Stroudwater Thames & Severn 10. Lagan Navigation But - realistically, anything which can get funding, plenty of support, and can get completed while I'm still around! And - in all seriousness, conservation of structures ahead of formal restoration of navigation by powered boats, just in case the latter becomes impossible or is never forthcoming. So any conservation, and maybe short navigable lengths is supported in the medium term. Interesting task, making lists! Joseph

Hello everyone I'm coming late to this, and wasn't going to reply, but I have been giving it some thought! I'll avoid the unhelpful language, but I did notice one phrase on the Godalming website - the "overcrowded towpath". I think that this is the key. I'm afraid that there are always capacity issues on any space for any purpose - the IWA talked for years about "multifunctional" use of waterways, but the truth is that a canal or river towpath is almost always a narrow strip of land with a path, and that can't be used on a large scale for ALL of the following: walking, cycling, mooring (temporary and permanent), barbecues, standing and staring, angling and, sadly, horse drawn boats as well. Similarly, the water - canal or river - has limitations, especially moving horse drawn boats past boats moored to towpaths (I've helped out with this a few times, not easy), powered pleasure craft of various sizes, canoes, rowing boats, rubber dinghies, and now paddle boards. All fine on a small scale, but once these get more extensive, there may well be conflicts. I'm not sure what can be done about all this - very careful management sounds good in principle, but it might have to involve prohibitions in some cases, like the Cambridge Backs....I'm not sure where else. I enjoyed horse-boating, and would be very sorry if it disappeared, but it may well have to be confined to specific sections on which some other towpath and waterborne activities are not permitted. I wouldn't like to be the person who introduced prohibitions!!!! Incidentally, I began boating in the 1960, with narrow boat traffic still passing on the Shropshire Union, and we were told not to moor on the towpath side, certainly on the Shropshire Union main line. I'm not sure if others were told this, and when it was that towpath mooring became acceptable to pleasure users. Another memory is one Bank holiday queuing and queuing at the locks on the Middlewich Branch, in the late 1960s or early 1970s, and wondering whether most boating would be like this in the future, and, if so, if much of the pleasure would go out of leisure boating. In the event, the increased traffic and accompanying traffic jams did not seem to come about. Just wondering if others found the same features around the same period. Stay safe everyone! Joseph

Many thanks Bill What an unfortunate story - but sadly, many people have found the cost of looking after wooden boats beyond their imagination. Joseph

Fascinating. I'm a bit puzzled about the "Agnes". It looks like it had been partly converted. Was this moved to the Canal after it reopened in 1974, or was it there before? Does anyone know any more about its history, and that of "Elizabeth"? Stay safe, everyone Joseph

Hello everyone Alan, I'm sorry to say that the Water Miss boat at Ellesmere Port has been "deconstructed". I am surprised that more people haven't heard of the Waterways Journal. It is annual, produced each year since 1999. Several editions have articles by yours truly in them, but don't let that put you off....! Next one is due out at Easter, I think, and should contain another article about Norman Anglin, whose story featured on here - my grateful thanks to people on this site. Waterway2go, I've been intrigued by the BW hire boats on Union Canal, not long before it closed; but can't find anything so far. Someone somewhere must know something ! Joseph

Good morning all! Blimey, I thought this might raise one or two replies eventually, but it does seem to have begun to mine a seam. JP, I take your point about Pluto's original observation - I have rather branched away from that. It struck me as a question that has never been asked - not my knowledge, anyway! I've had a look through Hugh Compton's book on the Oxford Canal - bridge-numbering not mentioned, but no reason why it should be. Another price of semi-speculation is about the first BW pleasure cruising booklets. In the 1980s, the late Christopher Marsh told me how these started - with the infamous straight line!! - on the basis that pleasure boaters would need to know whether there were any shops, other amenities etc at each bridge. I assume (maybe wrongly) that regular boat people would know their route and its facilities pretty well, whereas holidaymakers (hirers, especially) might not know anything about the canals that they were visiting, and thus when to stop to look for shops, fuel etc. (In writing this, it occurs to me that in the 1950s and 1960s there were far more village shops etc, most of which have now gone). So bridge numbers would be essential. Patrick, you raise a fascinating question here, and one over which someone could spend a great deal of interesting research. It's really this - just how were canals managed? And how did these differ from canal to canal? I'm aware of different working practices in carrying, and I assume there were variations in the practical management of canal ownership. A nice project for someone with a decade to spare! Great to see such a response - many thanks! Joseph

Good evening all Many thanks. I agree with Patrick - the Shropshire Union numberings are highly suspicious, as if numbering was done after 1936 (date of the breach) there would be no need to do any numbering. Haggis, I had no idea that bridges on the lowland canals were numbered. Possibly post-nationalisation or a result of railway company ownership? Mike, I think you're right to go back to the 1960s, but I suspect earlier. Our speculations are getting more and more like informed speculation, but I wonder if anyone can find some concrete evidence. I'm in the Waterways Archive this Friday and will have a look at one or two records. Joseph

Happy New Year, everyone!! Somewhat secondhand, a query has been relayed to me to which I don't have any ready answer. (Or indeed, too many clues, frankly!!).? Here it is: When did the numbering of bridges begin on England/Wales' canals [I don't think they ever were on canals in Scotland or Ireland, or rivers?]? My feeling is that this must have started as a general practice after nationalisation. Certainly, the cruising booklets, for pleasure boaters, begun by BTW in the 1950s used bridge numbering. I am only speculating (often a very dangerous thing!) but I think that the Shropshire Union company may have been numbering bridges earlier than that - there are "missing" bridges in general sequences that had been removed before nationalisation, or so I think. There would be a logic to numbering bridges when engineers and others had a lot more bridges to consider than in the smaller pre-nationalisation units. But this is a speculation. So far, my views are only the product of near-idle speculation, but I wonder if anyone knows much more. I would be very interested if anyone has any concrete evidence that can confound my speculation. Long may this forum continue. Happy New Year Joseph

Many thanks Pete I think you're right - BW/DIWE did acquire boats in lieu on unpaid bills, like Bleasdales on the Sheffield and South Yorkshire. incidentally, George & Matthews is still recorded by Companies House, but now dissolved. Many thanks again Joseph

Hi A related query - what happened to George & Matthews? Carrying coal on the Staffs & Worcs, I think, until this ended? And why did BW acquire these boats? Hope someone has some thoughts. Joseph

Hi Philip Have a heart, sir - it was 54 years ago, and I am, somehow, 54 years older!!!? I think (just maybe) the top lock at Hurleston had top gate paddles. Can't be sure about any others. What I do recall is the somewhat miscellaneous form of the paddles - those at Baddiley stick in my mind for some reason. Sorry I can't help much - maybe someone else? Pluto/Mike - great photos; many thanks for publishing these. Joseph